Ryanair exodus, what is the plan?
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The carrot is a 3 percent pay rise, more of a mouldy turnip and an insult, VAT has just gone up in the UK by 2.5, NI is increasing, high earners have to pay more tax, child allowance is decreasing, fuel is on the up, need i go on, not to mention no pay rise for the past several years!
Even if they offered 10 percent we would still be way behind the curve, and as already mentioned, the last shuffle of pay saw all the FOs screwed, who will it be this time?
Personally I do enjoy working for FR but the management do seem to really let down what could be a great company to work for, im guessing thats how the man on top wants it though so there'll be no change forth coming.
YYZ
Even if they offered 10 percent we would still be way behind the curve, and as already mentioned, the last shuffle of pay saw all the FOs screwed, who will it be this time?
Personally I do enjoy working for FR but the management do seem to really let down what could be a great company to work for, im guessing thats how the man on top wants it though so there'll be no change forth coming.
YYZ
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YYZ, all valid points , increase in VAT etc and tax rates all around Europe...
however your last paragraph going on about MOL
and I quote "im guessing thats how the man on top wants it though so there'll be no change forth coming",
its the Shareholders who are the key players here!!!
MOL is a waffler!!, remember that line about the Cabin Crew flying the planes, his knuckles were wrapped over that loose remark big time.
His job was on the line !!
RYR are loosing pilots, and some experienced guys too...in the Spring, the Shareholders will ask why the hell are so many planes being grounded?
MOL will have to try and wriggle out of that one!!!
the fact is NOT ENOUGH PILOTS, NOT ENOUGH CAPTAINS!!!
The company are loosing good people at the moment, and I don't feel sorry for these managers (PB included), They actually have the arrogance to think this machines can fly from A-B safely, whilst treating their workforce like complete **** at the same time,
this airline must cop on!!!! luv to see PB being dragged away from his family, and having to jumpseat 3 times to get back home for 2 Days!!!
lets see how this develops, but talkin to many guys in the base, and around the company.....Im sure it will not take much before there is complete chaos...!!
however your last paragraph going on about MOL
and I quote "im guessing thats how the man on top wants it though so there'll be no change forth coming",
its the Shareholders who are the key players here!!!
MOL is a waffler!!, remember that line about the Cabin Crew flying the planes, his knuckles were wrapped over that loose remark big time.
His job was on the line !!
RYR are loosing pilots, and some experienced guys too...in the Spring, the Shareholders will ask why the hell are so many planes being grounded?
MOL will have to try and wriggle out of that one!!!
the fact is NOT ENOUGH PILOTS, NOT ENOUGH CAPTAINS!!!
The company are loosing good people at the moment, and I don't feel sorry for these managers (PB included), They actually have the arrogance to think this machines can fly from A-B safely, whilst treating their workforce like complete **** at the same time,
this airline must cop on!!!! luv to see PB being dragged away from his family, and having to jumpseat 3 times to get back home for 2 Days!!!
lets see how this develops, but talkin to many guys in the base, and around the company.....Im sure it will not take much before there is complete chaos...!!
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Forgot to mention that pilots in those companies are backed by strong labor laws and a government that doesn't bend over and spread wide for those companies.
I'm growing tired of others blaming Ryanair pilots for a situation most of them didn't even have anything to do with making it so.
I'm growing tired of others blaming Ryanair pilots for a situation most of them didn't even have anything to do with making it so.
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Yes "d105" I absolutely agree!!
It sickens me when
's from outside shout **** from outside the fence with comments like that from beachbumflyer.
beachbumflyer ..... there is nothing that can be done i tell you and i speak from inside! Ryanair managent have destroyed all moral, slammed every door, bullied people into contracts, bullied pilots, cabin crew and enginers into bases they dont want to be at; they have exploited and upset the living standards and life-situation of thousands of pilots and engineers, slashed, and cut, lied, and have twisted the truth and imtimidated at every opportunity internally and in the public arena.
Management have also divided and destroyed all opportunities of pilot unity (if it was ever in existance) by having 40 something bases accross Europe north south east and west thereby rendering any united force being created.... ETC! It is NO LHR/LGW like BA have where the pilots can gather and unite!
Nothing will change in ryanair! its a lost cause unless management personnel change and that will NOT happen! Pilots either accept the **** because they have to due to family committments or another genuine reason OR leave, and many are!
If the likes of you think its different then you are catagorically wrong!
Give me 3 ways you can fix the rot in ryanair beachbumflyer?!!!!
What bright spark went off in your head
that makes you think solutions have not been exhausted already!?
You will think of NOT ONE!!!
You know nothing about how this company works from your bar-stool! AND if you think you can suggest solutions there are 2500 pilots in ryanair waiting in earnest for your intellectual and concrete solutions from the sidelines!!
It sickens me when
's from outside shout **** from outside the fence with comments like that from beachbumflyer.beachbumflyer ..... there is nothing that can be done i tell you and i speak from inside! Ryanair managent have destroyed all moral, slammed every door, bullied people into contracts, bullied pilots, cabin crew and enginers into bases they dont want to be at; they have exploited and upset the living standards and life-situation of thousands of pilots and engineers, slashed, and cut, lied, and have twisted the truth and imtimidated at every opportunity internally and in the public arena.
Management have also divided and destroyed all opportunities of pilot unity (if it was ever in existance) by having 40 something bases accross Europe north south east and west thereby rendering any united force being created.... ETC! It is NO LHR/LGW like BA have where the pilots can gather and unite!
Nothing will change in ryanair! its a lost cause unless management personnel change and that will NOT happen! Pilots either accept the **** because they have to due to family committments or another genuine reason OR leave, and many are!
If the likes of you think its different then you are catagorically wrong!
Give me 3 ways you can fix the rot in ryanair beachbumflyer?!!!!
What bright spark went off in your head
that makes you think solutions have not been exhausted already!?You will think of NOT ONE!!!
You know nothing about how this company works from your bar-stool! AND if you think you can suggest solutions there are 2500 pilots in ryanair waiting in earnest for your intellectual and concrete solutions from the sidelines!!
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Simple question. How do you know what we know?
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I've now left Ryanair & I'm in a place where the sun shines and the sand is plentiful. And the reason why I left is because everything Maverick says is true. Back in 2006 the Ryanair Pilots had a real opportunity to actually do something about the working conditions and REPA had some real movement. Things were actually looking promising and I for one was gutted when things didn't go well with the pay votes in the bases in 2007. Sadly, that was a real missed opportunity for Ryanair Pilots and I fear an opportunity like that will never return.
But it's not just Ryanair Pilots that have messed things up. Look at jet2 with 70% working etc, Easyjet with flexible contracts, Thomas Cook are doing the same. How can something like that occur at a unionised company like TCX? Didn't the TCX Pilots complain to BALPA? The bottom line is, a career in the UK with decent T's and C's is impossible unless you join BA. But as money talks, how long is it going to be before BA looks to cut costs and Flight Deck T's and C's suffer? After all, BA have to compete with the likes of easy and Ryanair for traffic. And the public tend to look at price before anything else.
The sad fact is that just about everyone (pilot or not) want's someone else to fight their corner for them. If the Pilots would actually fight for themselves............................... But that's never going to happen.
But it's not just Ryanair Pilots that have messed things up. Look at jet2 with 70% working etc, Easyjet with flexible contracts, Thomas Cook are doing the same. How can something like that occur at a unionised company like TCX? Didn't the TCX Pilots complain to BALPA? The bottom line is, a career in the UK with decent T's and C's is impossible unless you join BA. But as money talks, how long is it going to be before BA looks to cut costs and Flight Deck T's and C's suffer? After all, BA have to compete with the likes of easy and Ryanair for traffic. And the public tend to look at price before anything else.
The sad fact is that just about everyone (pilot or not) want's someone else to fight their corner for them. If the Pilots would actually fight for themselves............................... But that's never going to happen.
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Looks like the exodus is happening in other airlines too.
"Vijaya Mallya-owned Kingfisher Airlines is facing a shortage of commanders as a good number of them have left and joined other carriers in the last 18 months. CNBC-TV18’s Swati Khandelwal Jain reports that almost 168 pilots quit in the last 18 months. Around 72 commanders quit in the last 18 months.
The airline now faces a shortage of around 47 commanders."
"Vijaya Mallya-owned Kingfisher Airlines is facing a shortage of commanders as a good number of them have left and joined other carriers in the last 18 months. CNBC-TV18’s Swati Khandelwal Jain reports that almost 168 pilots quit in the last 18 months. Around 72 commanders quit in the last 18 months.
The airline now faces a shortage of around 47 commanders."
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From a captain friend in Jetairways India they are very short of B737 captains. You'll have to research the T's & C's. Is it people leaving or uncovered expansion? I don't know.
The thing with any employer, they can test the water quite often. If they squeeze and nobody leaves they stay like that for a while, let you get used to it and it then becomes the norm. Then they squeeze a little bit more, perhaps too hard, back off a little until the squealing stops and they stay at that level. Guess what; it is a little squeeze after all and the employer has moved forward. Again, that becomes the norm. New guys come in with no complaints because they know only today's T's & C's.
It happened with the pax T's & C's. Go back 10 years, even 5 years, and compare what s$£t they put up with now compared to then. Guess what, the competitiors followed in the wake. Now it a great game, they can work as a team. One airline squeezes the pax in one area, the rest watch the results on pax figures. No effect, so they adopt that policy. Another squeezes somewhere else; same result, they all follow. Slowly it becomes the norm for all airlines and the pax have no choice. An example is baggage charge and booking fee/credit card charge. Even the majors have jumper on the c.c. charge band wagon. Just consider, one LoCo's books 70m pax a year at 6euros a pop for cc charge. Guess what their profit was. They make an annual profit not from flying a/c but from screwing the pax on a cc charge. Imagine if they upped it by 1 euro. Would it really effect the pax numbers? I doubt it, but see what it'll do to profit. It's like having your own printing press for euros.
The same attitude goes for employees' T's & C's. They look at each other and if the one your with offers just enough above the competition, plus no change of base and thus no disruption of family, then who is going to swap horses. It has to be a significant improvement to up-heave the family. If they all adopt the same naff T's & C's then there's no greener grass round the corner. It's a long way away. For the younger ones they can go to a major and wait it out. It's the longer toothed guys who are stuck.
What will happen eventually is there will be not enough F/O's to promote because they will have looked into the future and not liked what they saw, and left. The expansion will slow or stop; there will be empty left seats and some carrots will need to be thrown. Everybody will be throwing carrots and some will not be able to have big enough and shiny enough ones. They will suffer. If they go bust, the whole cycle starts again because any job is better than no job. The laws of the jungle are once again king. There might be a short window of opportunity at the start of the carrot throwing to gain a little ground, but it will sink back quickly on later contracts once the big boys have their monopoly muscles back again.
But look around you and see a dumbed down world. Lowest price is everything, not best value. They are not the same thing. The public will spend the least and put up with dire stuff for short travel times. More to spend at the destination, so expect little public sympathy. It's a difficult one to find best solution for, especially in the present climate. Excellent profits, but still the screws are on. Do not enter the jungle with eyes wide shut.
The thing with any employer, they can test the water quite often. If they squeeze and nobody leaves they stay like that for a while, let you get used to it and it then becomes the norm. Then they squeeze a little bit more, perhaps too hard, back off a little until the squealing stops and they stay at that level. Guess what; it is a little squeeze after all and the employer has moved forward. Again, that becomes the norm. New guys come in with no complaints because they know only today's T's & C's.
It happened with the pax T's & C's. Go back 10 years, even 5 years, and compare what s$£t they put up with now compared to then. Guess what, the competitiors followed in the wake. Now it a great game, they can work as a team. One airline squeezes the pax in one area, the rest watch the results on pax figures. No effect, so they adopt that policy. Another squeezes somewhere else; same result, they all follow. Slowly it becomes the norm for all airlines and the pax have no choice. An example is baggage charge and booking fee/credit card charge. Even the majors have jumper on the c.c. charge band wagon. Just consider, one LoCo's books 70m pax a year at 6euros a pop for cc charge. Guess what their profit was. They make an annual profit not from flying a/c but from screwing the pax on a cc charge. Imagine if they upped it by 1 euro. Would it really effect the pax numbers? I doubt it, but see what it'll do to profit. It's like having your own printing press for euros.
The same attitude goes for employees' T's & C's. They look at each other and if the one your with offers just enough above the competition, plus no change of base and thus no disruption of family, then who is going to swap horses. It has to be a significant improvement to up-heave the family. If they all adopt the same naff T's & C's then there's no greener grass round the corner. It's a long way away. For the younger ones they can go to a major and wait it out. It's the longer toothed guys who are stuck.
What will happen eventually is there will be not enough F/O's to promote because they will have looked into the future and not liked what they saw, and left. The expansion will slow or stop; there will be empty left seats and some carrots will need to be thrown. Everybody will be throwing carrots and some will not be able to have big enough and shiny enough ones. They will suffer. If they go bust, the whole cycle starts again because any job is better than no job. The laws of the jungle are once again king. There might be a short window of opportunity at the start of the carrot throwing to gain a little ground, but it will sink back quickly on later contracts once the big boys have their monopoly muscles back again.
But look around you and see a dumbed down world. Lowest price is everything, not best value. They are not the same thing. The public will spend the least and put up with dire stuff for short travel times. More to spend at the destination, so expect little public sympathy. It's a difficult one to find best solution for, especially in the present climate. Excellent profits, but still the screws are on. Do not enter the jungle with eyes wide shut.
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RAT 5 that's a very nice way of summing up the situation.
A solution would be global pilot unions. If not, at least on the continent level such as the Americas, Europe, Asia. In the US and Europe you have the ability to force your companies to recognize that union. Now wouldn't that be a beautiful thing.
A solution would be global pilot unions. If not, at least on the continent level such as the Americas, Europe, Asia. In the US and Europe you have the ability to force your companies to recognize that union. Now wouldn't that be a beautiful thing.
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IFALPA
IFALPA anyone? like with IATA for tickets and codeshares, the airlines should all negotiate hourly rates and benefits for the amount of pilots to be hired directly with IFALPA, and not divide and conquer us by offering carrots and sticks, all different t and c to any one of us. There should be a international contract with T and C for any pilot with 200, 1000, 3000 and 5000 hours, SIC, PIC, LTC, TRI and TRE. Regardless of the moment of the year, the desperadness of the pilots and the color of their skin!
This is not only valid for aviation actually, all the world should go towards a real globalization, that is not only a free movement of money for the rich, but also a free spreading of RIGHTS for everyone else.
When the market is out of control and runs to the bottom, the morals and rights have to be forced and written in stone, that those will become the norm and the people will adapt, just when we adapt to the bottom we can adapt to something better and more sustainable again.
It is not too late, at all.
D
This is not only valid for aviation actually, all the world should go towards a real globalization, that is not only a free movement of money for the rich, but also a free spreading of RIGHTS for everyone else.
When the market is out of control and runs to the bottom, the morals and rights have to be forced and written in stone, that those will become the norm and the people will adapt, just when we adapt to the bottom we can adapt to something better and more sustainable again.
It is not too late, at all.
D
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Essex Boy,
The USSR failed for many reasons. I don't see the correlation between DMK's post and your comment.
Please enlighten me and/or any other pprune'r following this thread?
The USSR failed for many reasons. I don't see the correlation between DMK's post and your comment.
Please enlighten me and/or any other pprune'r following this thread?