View Poll Results: Pilots perception/experiences of BALPA's performance?
BALPA Member - Considering ending membership.
170
18.97%
BALPA Member - Not impressed / No alternative.
146
16.29%
BALPA Member - They could do better but content.
168
18.75%
BALPA Member - Very Impressed.
76
8.48%
Former member - Cancelled due cost / not value for money.
38
4.24%
Former member - Cancelled due bad experience.
86
9.60%
Former member - Cancelled out of touch / not effective
93
10.38%
Never had membership - Impressed
11
1.23%
Never had membership - Not impressed.
108
12.05%
Voters: 896. This poll is closed
Poll: BALPA's Performance - Vote
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Back in the late eighties/early nineties when I flew for BMI the BALPA CC members largely comprised wannabee pilot management.
When I needed help, it was found wanting, and the bod on "my" side of the table (who surprise surprise subsequently became management) effectively just rubber-stamped the decision taken by management before having a nice round of golf & a couple of pints down the lodge with his "adversary"
Between 2 & 3 years ago IALPA were very confident in the percentage of support they had (both IALPA & BALPA) within Ryanair. They wanted to go for a vote on recognition at that time and were VERY confident of a successful outcome.
The head honcho at BALPA ( not the current one) at that time scuppered it by stating that he wouldn't countenance a recognition vote until a full time official to represent Ryanair was recruited.
He then proceeded to attempt to recruit for this position by offering a fixed period contract only, which is rather half baked when you consider the calibre of person required if you are going to tackle Ryanair.
Long and the short of it is that the impetus was lost and the chance evaporated in the wind.
Next time round, a slightly slow starting wishy washy "respect" campaign floundered on the rocks before it became too embarassing.
The real chance was squandered nearly 3 yrs before.
Guess that makes me a dissatisfied ex-member.
When I needed help, it was found wanting, and the bod on "my" side of the table (who surprise surprise subsequently became management) effectively just rubber-stamped the decision taken by management before having a nice round of golf & a couple of pints down the lodge with his "adversary"
Between 2 & 3 years ago IALPA were very confident in the percentage of support they had (both IALPA & BALPA) within Ryanair. They wanted to go for a vote on recognition at that time and were VERY confident of a successful outcome.
The head honcho at BALPA ( not the current one) at that time scuppered it by stating that he wouldn't countenance a recognition vote until a full time official to represent Ryanair was recruited.
He then proceeded to attempt to recruit for this position by offering a fixed period contract only, which is rather half baked when you consider the calibre of person required if you are going to tackle Ryanair.
Long and the short of it is that the impetus was lost and the chance evaporated in the wind.
Next time round, a slightly slow starting wishy washy "respect" campaign floundered on the rocks before it became too embarassing.
The real chance was squandered nearly 3 yrs before.
Guess that makes me a dissatisfied ex-member.
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BALPA is essentially a group of unions (CCs) that largely operate autonomously. Granted there are BALPA wide policies, but in terms of union activity relating directly to one company, it's that companies CC that makes the decisions.
The BACC, imo, is excellent. I don't agree with everything they do, but by and large I feel very well represented. Given the situation our cabin crew are in, I'm glad we have a group of talented and hard working reps.
Incidentally, the effectiveness of the BACC is largely down to the fact that over 90% of BA pilots are members.
In summary, I don't really see the point of this poll. If you want it to have any meaning then multiple polls judging happiness with each individual CC would be required.
The BACC, imo, is excellent. I don't agree with everything they do, but by and large I feel very well represented. Given the situation our cabin crew are in, I'm glad we have a group of talented and hard working reps.
Incidentally, the effectiveness of the BACC is largely down to the fact that over 90% of BA pilots are members.
In summary, I don't really see the point of this poll. If you want it to have any meaning then multiple polls judging happiness with each individual CC would be required.
Last edited by BusDriverLHR; 19th Feb 2010 at 10:44.
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That's all very well & good & I'm glad all the BA guys are happy with BALPA.
However, in the real world, things are a lot tougher & BALPA does a lot less for the rest of us & as you can see, the 'Malcontents' camp are generally not happy with BALPA & are larger in number than the contented.
Would BALPA be more effective & more accountable if:
BALPA members in a company decided whether or not to have CC's? Or individual Rep's reporting directly to BALPA?
Would it be better for BALPA to directly employ Rep's & place them with airlines that recognise BALPA? They don't have to be Line Pilots, just negotiators trained & familiar with the role, pressures & demands of Pilot's in the workplace.
If they decide to retain CC's, should those CC's consist of Line Pilots if some may abuse the position by posturing for management jobs? Should BALPA CC Reps' be made powerful enough to by-pass Fleet Level, Chief Pilot & DFO ranks & report or negotiate with the Chief Exec. or Board directly similar to the Flight Safety chain within an airline?
Should airline reps' be based at BALPA HQ & not be employed by the airline so aggrieved BALPA members can go straight to BALPA.
The whole system in its present shape is ineffective, corrupt, gutless, toothless & it stinks & it is only exacerbating the de-valuation of the role of Pilot's today.
During my years in aviation, a trainer whom I greatly admire was on a CRM course when some of the managers from departments all across the airline came in & 'BIG'ed up their own importance in running the airline & spewed forth how the airline needed EVERY person in EVERY department.
This trainer friend of mine then said to them something along the lines of,
"Well we'll have a little experiment shall we? All you management people in your 'backroom' departments take a week off, go home & spend some time off & just let the Pilots, Cabin Crew, Engineers & Op's staff run the airline for a week. Sure, for the first few days might be interesting but we'd keep it going. After the week, we'd let all the minions & managers back in & send home all the Pilots, Cabin Crew, Engineers & Ops staff for their week at home & then see how long the airline could operate for. Now exactly WHO does RUN the airline??!!!"
Personally, I think we have to take back the high ground here. I think it's time for an Airline Industry Specific union encompassing Pilot's, Cabin Crew, Engineers & Operations staff across the industry with a CC in each airline made up of reps from each discipline instead of a Pilot's Union, a Cabin Crew Union etc.
I couldn't give tosh if another Captain in a similar airline, flying a similar type from the same base on similar routes is earning X pounds more than me, or gets more time off or a better pension- those debates are for later. Right now, all I want is union protection from industry wide, rapidly erroding employment terms & conditions, and in my experience & opinion BALPA DOES NOT DELIVER. It's time for something new.
That's all very well & good & I'm glad all the BA guys are happy with BALPA.
However, in the real world, things are a lot tougher & BALPA does a lot less for the rest of us & as you can see, the 'Malcontents' camp are generally not happy with BALPA & are larger in number than the contented.
Would BALPA be more effective & more accountable if:
BALPA members in a company decided whether or not to have CC's? Or individual Rep's reporting directly to BALPA?
Would it be better for BALPA to directly employ Rep's & place them with airlines that recognise BALPA? They don't have to be Line Pilots, just negotiators trained & familiar with the role, pressures & demands of Pilot's in the workplace.
If they decide to retain CC's, should those CC's consist of Line Pilots if some may abuse the position by posturing for management jobs? Should BALPA CC Reps' be made powerful enough to by-pass Fleet Level, Chief Pilot & DFO ranks & report or negotiate with the Chief Exec. or Board directly similar to the Flight Safety chain within an airline?
Should airline reps' be based at BALPA HQ & not be employed by the airline so aggrieved BALPA members can go straight to BALPA.
The whole system in its present shape is ineffective, corrupt, gutless, toothless & it stinks & it is only exacerbating the de-valuation of the role of Pilot's today.
During my years in aviation, a trainer whom I greatly admire was on a CRM course when some of the managers from departments all across the airline came in & 'BIG'ed up their own importance in running the airline & spewed forth how the airline needed EVERY person in EVERY department.
This trainer friend of mine then said to them something along the lines of,
"Well we'll have a little experiment shall we? All you management people in your 'backroom' departments take a week off, go home & spend some time off & just let the Pilots, Cabin Crew, Engineers & Op's staff run the airline for a week. Sure, for the first few days might be interesting but we'd keep it going. After the week, we'd let all the minions & managers back in & send home all the Pilots, Cabin Crew, Engineers & Ops staff for their week at home & then see how long the airline could operate for. Now exactly WHO does RUN the airline??!!!"
Personally, I think we have to take back the high ground here. I think it's time for an Airline Industry Specific union encompassing Pilot's, Cabin Crew, Engineers & Operations staff across the industry with a CC in each airline made up of reps from each discipline instead of a Pilot's Union, a Cabin Crew Union etc.
I couldn't give tosh if another Captain in a similar airline, flying a similar type from the same base on similar routes is earning X pounds more than me, or gets more time off or a better pension- those debates are for later. Right now, all I want is union protection from industry wide, rapidly erroding employment terms & conditions, and in my experience & opinion BALPA DOES NOT DELIVER. It's time for something new.
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Former member - Cancelled out of touch / not effective
Ridiculously expensive, achieved very little tangible or worthwhile whilst with BM, and then BALPA refused to assist and were hugely unhelpful during the whole BA / BACX farrago.
BritishAirwaysLinePilotsAssoc.
BA might obviously disagree, buts that the way it was / is.
Now with the IPA - huge saving, pretty much the same benefits, legal protection, insurance, financial advice etc etc Also much easier to communicate with / to and far more helpful.
BritishAirwaysLinePilotsAssoc.
BA might obviously disagree, buts that the way it was / is.
Now with the IPA - huge saving, pretty much the same benefits, legal protection, insurance, financial advice etc etc Also much easier to communicate with / to and far more helpful.
BALPA Member for 6 years generally satisfied but their lack of communication sometimes lets them down.
At Easy we have a Very Good CC , no management wanabees , in fact quite the opposite in fact.
Non Membership and Moaning and bitching from the sidelines about previous failures in other airlines weakens BALPA'S position and just leads to a reduction in its effectivness and strengthens management hands.
If we had 90% plus membership at Easy we would be in a much better place to fight our battles.
Its About your Current Airline not your Last.
BALPA is not perfect but it is all we have.
At Easy we have a Very Good CC , no management wanabees , in fact quite the opposite in fact.
Non Membership and Moaning and bitching from the sidelines about previous failures in other airlines weakens BALPA'S position and just leads to a reduction in its effectivness and strengthens management hands.
If we had 90% plus membership at Easy we would be in a much better place to fight our battles.
Its About your Current Airline not your Last.
BALPA is not perfect but it is all we have.
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BALPA member - Not impressed / No alternative.
And even though im not impressed I know leaving BALPA would be making the situation worse.
But what annoys me more are the Pilots who leave BALPA, stop thier contributions, but when the next tax-free allowances or pay scales are negotiated by BALPA, the reward is passed on to them anyway!
Its a parody that is infact REDUCING its membership and therefore its pushing power.
And even though im not impressed I know leaving BALPA would be making the situation worse.
But what annoys me more are the Pilots who leave BALPA, stop thier contributions, but when the next tax-free allowances or pay scales are negotiated by BALPA, the reward is passed on to them anyway!
Its a parody that is infact REDUCING its membership and therefore its pushing power.
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FlyingTinCans
But what annoys me more are the Pilots who leave BALPA, stop thier contributions, but when the next tax-free allowances or pay scales are negotiated by BALPA, the reward is passed on to them anyway!
Had the problem been of sufficient magnitude to lead to dismissal the failure would have been picked up at some point but not before I had suffered considerable anguish. I chose to stay in the union and all is fine now.
The problem within BALPA as I see it from what limited knowledge I have is that your T&Cs are not negotiated across the board with each company setting their own, also different disciplinary procedures between airlines. This brings about greater reliance on the local rep who may think they know it all but have no legal background. It is up to MEMBERS to come forward to fill these positions but all unions struggle to find people who will put the effort in.
Meanwhile, the non-members will make 'noises off' about how little the union has done for them and generally spreading dissent/poison against the union while enjoying the pay the union has negotiated (that is within those with recognition).
If I am to believe some of the posts I read on here BALPA is a broken tool but the gripes tend to be non specific and drawn from experience of several years ago or what happened to someone else, they may also be due to inflated expectation.
As an example of that expectation I see things posted about P2F, a despicable money grubbing scheme by airlines, but NO union could change this as it is perfectly legal, it may be having a terrible effect on some of you guys but it is at a political level that this will be changed, probably European. So BALPA is the wrong target.
Perhaps this is an example of the arguments any proponent of the union should be rehearsing. Perhaps the union should be briefing its reps on this kind of argument.
Just my 2p worth.
Last edited by al446; 19th Feb 2010 at 21:17. Reason: tidy up
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BALPA member resigned.
Whilst all the ancillary persuits of BALPA are noble and right what I really wanted from BALPA was a bit more pit bull attitude towards defending my terms and conditions.
Maintaining a good working relationship with management and negotiating rather than resorting to industrial action is again noble and right. However the modern breed of airline managers don't give a to$$ for what is noble and right and are prepared to trample all over our negotiated terms and conditions in order to reduce the cost base.
BALPAs consistent failure to set a boundaries in their relationship with management ultimately leads to a dysfunctional relationship. Management need to realise there are boundaries and there are consequences for stepping beyond those boundaries. It seems that my current employer is only willing to negoitate meaningfully when dragged to the precipice of industrial action and made to look into the abyss. Concessions made by employees in good faith during difficult trading conditions are rarely if ever recouped when times are good. Goodwill is a concept understood but abused by management.
My stance is that there are too many poodles chowing down on prime steak at HQ and not enough pit bulls willing to scrap for their members.
Alternatives to BALPA - legal insurance through ALPL, union representation through UNITE. Both for 1/3rd of the cost of BALPA subs.
Whilst all the ancillary persuits of BALPA are noble and right what I really wanted from BALPA was a bit more pit bull attitude towards defending my terms and conditions.
Maintaining a good working relationship with management and negotiating rather than resorting to industrial action is again noble and right. However the modern breed of airline managers don't give a to$$ for what is noble and right and are prepared to trample all over our negotiated terms and conditions in order to reduce the cost base.
BALPAs consistent failure to set a boundaries in their relationship with management ultimately leads to a dysfunctional relationship. Management need to realise there are boundaries and there are consequences for stepping beyond those boundaries. It seems that my current employer is only willing to negoitate meaningfully when dragged to the precipice of industrial action and made to look into the abyss. Concessions made by employees in good faith during difficult trading conditions are rarely if ever recouped when times are good. Goodwill is a concept understood but abused by management.
My stance is that there are too many poodles chowing down on prime steak at HQ and not enough pit bulls willing to scrap for their members.
Alternatives to BALPA - legal insurance through ALPL, union representation through UNITE. Both for 1/3rd of the cost of BALPA subs.
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BALPA member - undecided
It seems to me (as a relative newcomer to the industry) that the overwhelming issue here is whether BALPA are going to get 'stuck in' regarding the pay to fly 'problem.' I have only been in the RHS for 2 years now, but I was adamant that I was NOT going to pay for my 'in', either by paying for a TR or even 'TR+' package. So as a result I currently reside in a TP which I thoroughly enjoy flying, although I don't want this forever!
With eyes to the future it seems that some of the traditional escape routes from my TP life have been blockaded by a torrent of pay to fly cheaper options. Whilst I sympathise with these new cadets looking for work, ANY work, they are reducing my and my fellow aviators' options long term. So lamentably, I find myself hoping that somebody else's CC can do something about it because my CC do not have to address this issue (or so I imagine,) as I can't see anyone paying to fly a TP! So for the forseeable my company will continue to pay for bonded type training, and it remains 'out of my hands' so to speak, regardless of me wanting to see the issue resolved.
So I guess in a nut shell I'm looking over the fence hoping this can be resolved but I am totally bemused as to what I can do. I'm open to suggestions!
Apologies for this long meandering run!
Regards
Flyingcamel
With eyes to the future it seems that some of the traditional escape routes from my TP life have been blockaded by a torrent of pay to fly cheaper options. Whilst I sympathise with these new cadets looking for work, ANY work, they are reducing my and my fellow aviators' options long term. So lamentably, I find myself hoping that somebody else's CC can do something about it because my CC do not have to address this issue (or so I imagine,) as I can't see anyone paying to fly a TP! So for the forseeable my company will continue to pay for bonded type training, and it remains 'out of my hands' so to speak, regardless of me wanting to see the issue resolved.
So I guess in a nut shell I'm looking over the fence hoping this can be resolved but I am totally bemused as to what I can do. I'm open to suggestions!
Apologies for this long meandering run!
Regards
Flyingcamel
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flyingcamel
From my last post -
Have you tried contacting your MP about this issue?
As an example of that expectation I see things posted about P2F, a despicable money grubbing scheme by airlines, but NO union could change this as it is perfectly legal, it may be having a terrible effect on some of you guys but it is at a political level that this will be changed, probably European. So BALPA is the wrong target.
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As well as that how the hell has the industry been allowed to diminish to the current pathetically low level if the mighty BALPA have any BALLS at all?
What do you expect? The BNP aren't in power as most people outside of Lancashire don't like cheap pseudo neo-nazi ideas, if they did, we'd have to roll out the carpet for PM Griffin. By the same token, if Balpa were to bang the drum hard (and remember it's illegal for them to incite strikes) it doesn't necessarily follow that pilots would back it.
Another thing that pussies have in common with cats is that they're hard to herd.
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Balpa member - Impressed - for now...
Short term: Terms and conditions at my airline would be worse than they are currently were it not for the work of our CC. My subs have paid for themselves. The CC work hard on our behalf have been effective on several major issues. If only there were a way for the non-members in my company to have the decency to decline the benefits negotiated by a union who apparently aren't worth the money and be true to their convictions.
Who do you all think is going to bother fighting the new EASA FTL's if not BALPA?
Long term I'm not so sure Balpa's collegiate "professional organisation" style is going to work against current airline management trends (greedy yobbish thugs and spivs etc) and think the dinousaur/bonehead UNITE-type of bloody mindedness might be the only appropriate club left in the bag.
Short term: Terms and conditions at my airline would be worse than they are currently were it not for the work of our CC. My subs have paid for themselves. The CC work hard on our behalf have been effective on several major issues. If only there were a way for the non-members in my company to have the decency to decline the benefits negotiated by a union who apparently aren't worth the money and be true to their convictions.
Who do you all think is going to bother fighting the new EASA FTL's if not BALPA?
Long term I'm not so sure Balpa's collegiate "professional organisation" style is going to work against current airline management trends (greedy yobbish thugs and spivs etc) and think the dinousaur/bonehead UNITE-type of bloody mindedness might be the only appropriate club left in the bag.
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Caudillo
most people outside of Lancashire don't like cheap pseudo neo-nazi ideas
(what a toolbox!)
Rgds
The Moss
Last edited by Ballymoss; 20th Feb 2010 at 20:44. Reason: To add: I did vote, Former member - Cancelled out of touch / not effective
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Now with the IPA - huge saving, pretty much the same benefits, legal protection, insurance, financial advice etc etc Also much easier to communicate with / to and far more helpful
Which airlines have a company council affiliated to the IPA and recognised by the management within that airline as the pilots representative group?
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Perhaps BALPA would like to have the chance to defend themselves here?!
Come on BALPA show us all you have the balls to do it!
M.
Come on BALPA show us all you have the balls to do it!
M.
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Former member cancelled due bad experience.
Flying since 1982, currently with LCC.
Paid dues to BALPA for seven years - then Danair went bust. Strangely no desire to throw away any more money in BALPA's direction.
Flying since 1982, currently with LCC.
Paid dues to BALPA for seven years - then Danair went bust. Strangely no desire to throw away any more money in BALPA's direction.
Thread Starter
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As I type this there have been over 430 votes, overwhelmed by the response so far.
All I would reiterate is the points of my previous post where I asked for the sizeable numbers voting who are current BALPA members and are happy/content to give an idea why or if there is a trend with their experience level or airline.
2nd is directed at those who have never been a member, please advise why you voted the way you did, are you flying elsewhere in the world, are you 15 and an avid FSX aficionado, etc.
Please if you take the time to vote please add a comment as to your motivations, it would really help the debate. However it is by no means mandatory, just interesting when looking combined with the results gathered.
Please use the following format if possible:
Number of Years Flying
Current Status/Employer
Option Selected
Supporting Reason for Selection
All I would reiterate is the points of my previous post where I asked for the sizeable numbers voting who are current BALPA members and are happy/content to give an idea why or if there is a trend with their experience level or airline.
2nd is directed at those who have never been a member, please advise why you voted the way you did, are you flying elsewhere in the world, are you 15 and an avid FSX aficionado, etc.
Please if you take the time to vote please add a comment as to your motivations, it would really help the debate. However it is by no means mandatory, just interesting when looking combined with the results gathered.
Please use the following format if possible:
Number of Years Flying
Current Status/Employer
Option Selected
Supporting Reason for Selection
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BALPA MEMBER - NOT IMPRESSED. Employed
To all those who say "Shhh, don't question the value/effectiveness of BALPA it will only make things worse..." I say we question it because we care. We care about our profession and we care about BALPA. We want it to not just secure the current members but recover those who have left and encourage new members.
To those who say "listen, you don't get it. It's a members led organisation, speak to your CC..." I say what about all those who are unemployed/work for a company where the union is not recognised/ have been forced to find work abroad etc.
To those who say " you have unrealistic expectations of what BALPA can do...." I say let BALPA tell me what is possible and what isn't. Let BALPA explain to me that at the very least it understands the national issue's and it has considered the options. Where BALPA has a weakness in an area that it has then liaised with other unions/ taken legal advise/ looked at using public relations experts etc etc etc. At the very least acknowledge the damn issue's and communicate with us more.
To those who say "well the current system works just dandy in my airline..." I say perhaps - but only in respect of internal matters. With respect that is simply not good enough. Your company does not operate in an economic bubble. While you have been protecting your T & C's others have had there's reduced. Those companies may be in a position to take business away from you. You could end up with the best T & C's of any airline thats failed so far.
I will stick with them but I think they could do much more.