View Poll Results: Pilots perception/experiences of BALPA's performance?
BALPA Member - Considering ending membership.
170
18.97%
BALPA Member - Not impressed / No alternative.
146
16.29%
BALPA Member - They could do better but content.
168
18.75%
BALPA Member - Very Impressed.
76
8.48%
Former member - Cancelled due cost / not value for money.
38
4.24%
Former member - Cancelled due bad experience.
86
9.60%
Former member - Cancelled out of touch / not effective
93
10.38%
Never had membership - Impressed
11
1.23%
Never had membership - Not impressed.
108
12.05%
Voters: 896. This poll is closed
Poll: BALPA's Performance - Vote
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4star
Wise words indeed. I have been fighting the corner of unions in general on here in various threads for a while. I have done so since the attempt for recognition within RYR, clarified the legal position when total distortions of the true state have been posted to mislead and tried to illustrate why some present/would be members have expectations beyond what is legally possible. Some BALPA members or sympathisers have aided me BUT at no point has a BALPA (or other union) official come on and posted their stance.
Perhaps BALPA may be better responding to this thread.
Perhaps BALPA may be better responding to this thread.
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Former BALPA Member - cancelled, total waste of money!
It is a complete game, nothing more. Things have now turned, I think for the foreseeable future of UK airline life.
I will be redundant at the end of April from a 'large' union orientated UK airline. This particular CC have just discovered this 'new' game from management who are now making sure it is they who run the company, not a bunch of senior guys who are, in reality, looking after the interests of senior pilots. I personally believe it is these folk, who are desperate to hang on to and have turned 'Big Seniority' into something special, why the future pilots of the industry are now suffering.
I am now joining easyJet, a BALPA recognised company, albeit working for PARC on a contract that is nothing short of disgusting...but I need a job!
1% payrise for me at least, I will never rejoin.
Regards
Sean
It is a complete game, nothing more. Things have now turned, I think for the foreseeable future of UK airline life.
I will be redundant at the end of April from a 'large' union orientated UK airline. This particular CC have just discovered this 'new' game from management who are now making sure it is they who run the company, not a bunch of senior guys who are, in reality, looking after the interests of senior pilots. I personally believe it is these folk, who are desperate to hang on to and have turned 'Big Seniority' into something special, why the future pilots of the industry are now suffering.
I am now joining easyJet, a BALPA recognised company, albeit working for PARC on a contract that is nothing short of disgusting...but I need a job!
1% payrise for me at least, I will never rejoin.
Regards
Sean
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Former member - cancelled out of touch & ineffective
Pilots as a generalisation are self motivated and dare I say selfish individuals, who tend to look to others to make a difference
BALPA represents the loudest, and most senior, and has ignored those coming in at he bottom hence the evolution of bonds to self sponsored type rating to pay to fly. BALPA should have jumped on these schemes right from the beginning, but when I was last a member of BALPA, and tried to raise this issue with them in the London office I was told in as many words that it was a good thing. There were other factors in my decision to never have anything to do with BALPA ever gain, but that was certainly a big factor.
Another aspect of BALPA that I didn't like was that one of the Principle Negotiators (I think that was the title) was so antagonistic towards the management that relations between the CC, and the mangers were completely destroyed, negotiations broke down, and management will was imposed, and below what could have been achieved with the CC.
BALPA: worth 2% of my salary? No. No way.
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al446
BALPA? Comment on here??? They're too busy!! How can they do that when they're getting ready to battle in the Supreme Court fighting for BA Pilot's Holiday Pay after the High Court said ruled in favour of BA?
When will BALPA do something about helping people closer to the breadline?
Am I right in thinking that the BA Pilot's want payments the equivalent of Duty Pay while they aren't on duty or don't they get paid holidays at salary level rates?
BALPA? Comment on here??? They're too busy!! How can they do that when they're getting ready to battle in the Supreme Court fighting for BA Pilot's Holiday Pay after the High Court said ruled in favour of BA?
When will BALPA do something about helping people closer to the breadline?
Am I right in thinking that the BA Pilot's want payments the equivalent of Duty Pay while they aren't on duty or don't they get paid holidays at salary level rates?
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When will BALPA do something about helping people closer to the breadline?
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After being going for a week the BALPA Perception Poll has attracted just a little shy of 500 votes. The number of votes cast has started to slow and the posts continuing the debate has faltered slightly (which wasn't the aim). So in an effort to boost things it needs a little jump start.
Unfortunately I don't work for MORI otherwise I'd be able to advise the error factor in the poll. However some results are irrefutable if answered honestly by PPRuNe members. I've been monitoring this thread actively. I've also tried to stimulate posts from those who were voting in significant numbers but weren't adding comments as to why. Most posts so far tend to be from the disenfranchised.
However in an effort to stimulate debate and initiatives here goes some basic analysis of the results so far:
Current BALPA Membership
The most noticable trend with the voting on this over the past week was the contents/could do better's were in the majority until approx. halfway through the vote, when they were matched and then eclipsed by those considering ending membership. The first three options have by and large shared an equal percentage +/- 3% throughout.
Worryingly for the membership administrators 34% are currently considering ending membership and a further 27% would do so if they felt there was a viable alternative (I by no means degrade the IPA here - I have been a member of both and found them more helpful and more attuned to my needs when I approached them both before my first airline interview)
So based on the votes so far, there is roughly a 40%-60% split, with the minority favouring BALPA's performance and perception.
Again, it would be interesting (despite a couple of requests already) if we could see if there is a trend in terms of experience level or airline of the 40% of members who are content/impressed. It has been suggested on about three threads currently running at present that these may predominately be members of certain airlines with robust Company Councils (CC's for those new to the expression).
Former Members
There is no definitive information as to when this group ended/cancelled their membership. I was limited to 9 options in the poll. From comments made and PM's sent to me it would generally appear to be over a wide spread of time (From Dan Air in the early 90's to the past few months). The next set of conclusions may be erroneous as a result but also have some validity.
If the former members are added together they total approximately 130 (03:00 25/FEB). This makes them the biggest group of those holding/held BALPA membership and have voted in this poll. When combining with the current members votes (total: 440) we see 30% have cancelled, 25% are actively considering it, 20% are not happy, 19% are content and 6% impressed.
Now adding together the malcontent's, disenfranchised and unimpressed a total of 75% is achieved compared to 25% who voted as content/impressed. This is a massive 3:1 ratio and to put it in context equals that of George Bush just before he left office*.
Again, worryingly for BALPA is at the two extremes of cancellation and strong support. Those who's perception/experience is damaged outnumber those who have strong support and praise by almost 5:1.
Never Been Members
I would suggest (as nobody has informed me either by PM or publicly) that this group is made up of foreign pilots, those not covered by the auspices of BALPA's remit, student pilots, aspiring pilots, and general spotters who have a strong interest in aviation and trawl through PPRuNe as a result.
Not all of the 50ish who have voted in these 2 categories would be potential new recruits however some would be. Of interest to any BALPA hierarchy reading this (because they must have had wind before now) is that for every 1 person who looks upon them favourably, almost 10 do not. This to me seems to suggest they need to employ some better PR activities going forward as they certainly have an image problem that needs addressing.
As I have asked for already it would be really interesting to know why this 50 voted this way and their backgrounds. If its foreign pilots comparing their perceptions of the British unions effectiveness to their own then that would certainly be worth debating further.
Discuss ................
(* Washington Post Timeline: Bush's Eight Years in Office | washingtonpost.com)
Unfortunately I don't work for MORI otherwise I'd be able to advise the error factor in the poll. However some results are irrefutable if answered honestly by PPRuNe members. I've been monitoring this thread actively. I've also tried to stimulate posts from those who were voting in significant numbers but weren't adding comments as to why. Most posts so far tend to be from the disenfranchised.
However in an effort to stimulate debate and initiatives here goes some basic analysis of the results so far:
Current BALPA Membership
The most noticable trend with the voting on this over the past week was the contents/could do better's were in the majority until approx. halfway through the vote, when they were matched and then eclipsed by those considering ending membership. The first three options have by and large shared an equal percentage +/- 3% throughout.
Worryingly for the membership administrators 34% are currently considering ending membership and a further 27% would do so if they felt there was a viable alternative (I by no means degrade the IPA here - I have been a member of both and found them more helpful and more attuned to my needs when I approached them both before my first airline interview)
So based on the votes so far, there is roughly a 40%-60% split, with the minority favouring BALPA's performance and perception.
Again, it would be interesting (despite a couple of requests already) if we could see if there is a trend in terms of experience level or airline of the 40% of members who are content/impressed. It has been suggested on about three threads currently running at present that these may predominately be members of certain airlines with robust Company Councils (CC's for those new to the expression).
Former Members
There is no definitive information as to when this group ended/cancelled their membership. I was limited to 9 options in the poll. From comments made and PM's sent to me it would generally appear to be over a wide spread of time (From Dan Air in the early 90's to the past few months). The next set of conclusions may be erroneous as a result but also have some validity.
If the former members are added together they total approximately 130 (03:00 25/FEB). This makes them the biggest group of those holding/held BALPA membership and have voted in this poll. When combining with the current members votes (total: 440) we see 30% have cancelled, 25% are actively considering it, 20% are not happy, 19% are content and 6% impressed.
Now adding together the malcontent's, disenfranchised and unimpressed a total of 75% is achieved compared to 25% who voted as content/impressed. This is a massive 3:1 ratio and to put it in context equals that of George Bush just before he left office*.
Again, worryingly for BALPA is at the two extremes of cancellation and strong support. Those who's perception/experience is damaged outnumber those who have strong support and praise by almost 5:1.
Never Been Members
I would suggest (as nobody has informed me either by PM or publicly) that this group is made up of foreign pilots, those not covered by the auspices of BALPA's remit, student pilots, aspiring pilots, and general spotters who have a strong interest in aviation and trawl through PPRuNe as a result.
Not all of the 50ish who have voted in these 2 categories would be potential new recruits however some would be. Of interest to any BALPA hierarchy reading this (because they must have had wind before now) is that for every 1 person who looks upon them favourably, almost 10 do not. This to me seems to suggest they need to employ some better PR activities going forward as they certainly have an image problem that needs addressing.
As I have asked for already it would be really interesting to know why this 50 voted this way and their backgrounds. If its foreign pilots comparing their perceptions of the British unions effectiveness to their own then that would certainly be worth debating further.
Discuss ................
(* Washington Post Timeline: Bush's Eight Years in Office | washingtonpost.com)
Last edited by Dreamshiner; 25th Feb 2010 at 03:01.
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Am a BALPA member. Employed by BA and in general, v happy with what our CC have achieved through tough and principled negotiation. We are fortunate to have some great intellects battling for us........
Someone made the very valid point about the fragmented nature of our union due numerous CCs fighting their own individual battles. This is definitely something which weakens big BALPA.
Personally, what really irks me, is big BALPA's apparent ineffectiveness in tackling the major issues that affect us all - SSTRs, PTF schemes, Airport Security......... As many before have said, time to grow some balls and teeth and start upsetting one or two applecarts.
In summary, a BALPA member who is (a) satisfied with my CC and (b) VERY DISSATISFIED with big BALPA
Someone made the very valid point about the fragmented nature of our union due numerous CCs fighting their own individual battles. This is definitely something which weakens big BALPA.
Personally, what really irks me, is big BALPA's apparent ineffectiveness in tackling the major issues that affect us all - SSTRs, PTF schemes, Airport Security......... As many before have said, time to grow some balls and teeth and start upsetting one or two applecarts.
In summary, a BALPA member who is (a) satisfied with my CC and (b) VERY DISSATISFIED with big BALPA
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Well put sid,
I think wise to distinguish that we have BALPA national level and BALPA CC's at local level.
The options on this poll could have been tailored to distinguish between national level and local if I had more than 9 available. However i didn't have that luxury so I would suggest that those who perceive BALPA negatively are looking at the organisation nationally, on the converse those who have voted positively would be more influenced by their direct CC. I maybe wrong with this analysis.
BALPA national level should be taking a lead and tackling the major issues you outlined, supporting students, newly qualified and unemployed despite their subs ranging from £0-£2 per month. They may not cover your bills now Mr McAuslan, but they will in the future, but only if you act now.
P2F is almost universally despised and an effective stance on this cancer would be welcomed.
I wouldn't mind a bit of BALPA's resources being put into forward planning and investigation on what might be thrown at us in the next couple of years so it can be cauterised before its too late.
I would argue is to ensure continuity and consistency in the effectiveness at CC level throughout all CC's. The exchange of best practice and tactics as ever CC ins't as well versed and exacting as BA's, maybe Easy's could devise a new approach if advice was sought. A method where a CC can explain themselves and their course of action to their peers after a decision/agreement would help too based on what I've read so far. A secure forum on the BALPA website would allow this.
Also a transparent way of reporting alleged ineffectiveness to national level would also appease some who have voiced their negative experiences of their CC or an individual rep on here.
This is the tip of the iceberg, I would hope that a further 20 or so initiatives would be adopted as soon as possible, for there are no shortage of ideas, just will.
I think wise to distinguish that we have BALPA national level and BALPA CC's at local level.
The options on this poll could have been tailored to distinguish between national level and local if I had more than 9 available. However i didn't have that luxury so I would suggest that those who perceive BALPA negatively are looking at the organisation nationally, on the converse those who have voted positively would be more influenced by their direct CC. I maybe wrong with this analysis.
BALPA national level should be taking a lead and tackling the major issues you outlined, supporting students, newly qualified and unemployed despite their subs ranging from £0-£2 per month. They may not cover your bills now Mr McAuslan, but they will in the future, but only if you act now.
P2F is almost universally despised and an effective stance on this cancer would be welcomed.
I wouldn't mind a bit of BALPA's resources being put into forward planning and investigation on what might be thrown at us in the next couple of years so it can be cauterised before its too late.
I would argue is to ensure continuity and consistency in the effectiveness at CC level throughout all CC's. The exchange of best practice and tactics as ever CC ins't as well versed and exacting as BA's, maybe Easy's could devise a new approach if advice was sought. A method where a CC can explain themselves and their course of action to their peers after a decision/agreement would help too based on what I've read so far. A secure forum on the BALPA website would allow this.
Also a transparent way of reporting alleged ineffectiveness to national level would also appease some who have voiced their negative experiences of their CC or an individual rep on here.
This is the tip of the iceberg, I would hope that a further 20 or so initiatives would be adopted as soon as possible, for there are no shortage of ideas, just will.
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Perhaps some CC member could contact H.Q. and try and "wake up" the beast with a suggestion that they take heed of this problem rather than making like an ostrich.
500 (and counting) is a reasonable straw poll of their members, and hey, we even have a BA member who, whilst satisfied locally, has identified the lack of action @ the top.
TIME TO WAKE UP BALPA ! ! Or wait until you see the membership dwindling ?
but then it is too late, proactive beats reactive any day 
500 (and counting) is a reasonable straw poll of their members, and hey, we even have a BA member who, whilst satisfied locally, has identified the lack of action @ the top.
TIME TO WAKE UP BALPA ! ! Or wait until you see the membership dwindling ?
but then it is too late, proactive beats reactive any day
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British Airways Line Pilots Association.
Balpa - working mainly in the interests of British Airways.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Former member - Cancelled due to ineffectiveness within the main body of Balpa.
Complete waste of money, would rather give it to a worthwhile charity.
I will never rejoin.
Balpa - working mainly in the interests of British Airways.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Former member - Cancelled due to ineffectiveness within the main body of Balpa.
Complete waste of money, would rather give it to a worthwhile charity.
I will never rejoin.
Last edited by WidebodyWillie; 27th Feb 2010 at 09:11.
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Former Member - Cancelled - out of touch / ineffective
I'm also with Sid, if a genuine attempt to tackle the things as Sid has listed were made, i'd be happy to rejoin and support them. But I read nothing but people talking about it and no action.
I also met some very good blokes at 'local' level, but on the whole, a powerless group of individuals when it comes to the things that matter and a complete waste of money!
JB
I'm also with Sid, if a genuine attempt to tackle the things as Sid has listed were made, i'd be happy to rejoin and support them. But I read nothing but people talking about it and no action.
I also met some very good blokes at 'local' level, but on the whole, a powerless group of individuals when it comes to the things that matter and a complete waste of money!
JB
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To those BALPA bashers:
BALPA is NOT them, it is us. If you think it is ineffective and poor value for money - and your judgement may be correct - then stand for election to your CC and the NEC, get in there and CHANGE IT. The REAL enemies are apathy and indolence. To paraphrase an old cliché, all that is necessary for expoitation to triumph is for the membership to do nothing. Write, march, stand for election, run the councils, learn about employment law, confront the managements. Then, if you fail, and only then, can you complain about BALPA being useless and poor value.
BALPA is NOT them, it is us. If you think it is ineffective and poor value for money - and your judgement may be correct - then stand for election to your CC and the NEC, get in there and CHANGE IT. The REAL enemies are apathy and indolence. To paraphrase an old cliché, all that is necessary for expoitation to triumph is for the membership to do nothing. Write, march, stand for election, run the councils, learn about employment law, confront the managements. Then, if you fail, and only then, can you complain about BALPA being useless and poor value.
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They could do better, but content.
Employed for 11 years with TCX.
I agree with sid, we are very lucky to have a great CC that have negotiated very effectively with the company over the years (there have been several occasions where the pay rise achieved by Balpa was over and above other non-unionised groups). I see my membership as self funding, and am very happy. Our CC have a good relationship with the management, and work hard at securing/improving our terms and conditions whilst at the same time appreciating the difficulties our industry faces.
I do think big Balpa has a long way to go.
Employed for 11 years with TCX.
I agree with sid, we are very lucky to have a great CC that have negotiated very effectively with the company over the years (there have been several occasions where the pay rise achieved by Balpa was over and above other non-unionised groups). I see my membership as self funding, and am very happy. Our CC have a good relationship with the management, and work hard at securing/improving our terms and conditions whilst at the same time appreciating the difficulties our industry faces.
I do think big Balpa has a long way to go.
the lunatic fringe
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Number of Years Flying: 35 Years
Current Status/Employer Captain: 747-400. Employed
Option Selected: Former Member- Cancelled due bad experience(s)
Supporting Reason for Selection: Too numerous to list. Myopic self serving bunch of ex patriot wasters.
Current Status/Employer Captain: 747-400. Employed
Option Selected: Former Member- Cancelled due bad experience(s)
Supporting Reason for Selection: Too numerous to list. Myopic self serving bunch of ex patriot wasters.
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It has came to my attention that some members may be trying to influence this vote. By viewing this post as a guest or signing out (if you have automatic sign in function enabled) it allows you to vote even if you have already done so.
I tend to keep a close eye on this thread as JetDriver advised at its conception that polls could degenerate quickly and miss the initial goal. I have seen a trend were at certain times votes at the extremes of this poll have increased dramatically in context and comparison. I just wish an IP address tag was left for each vote, however it hasn't and no doubt be breaching some privacy law if it was.
All I would say is if you have to resort to this sort of behaviour to gerrymander a vote to your agenda then you need to take a long look in the mirror and at your motives.
I tend to keep a close eye on this thread as JetDriver advised at its conception that polls could degenerate quickly and miss the initial goal. I have seen a trend were at certain times votes at the extremes of this poll have increased dramatically in context and comparison. I just wish an IP address tag was left for each vote, however it hasn't and no doubt be breaching some privacy law if it was.
All I would say is if you have to resort to this sort of behaviour to gerrymander a vote to your agenda then you need to take a long look in the mirror and at your motives.
Gerrymander eh? Its not exactly a very scientific poll now is it.
The bottom line is that unionised companies, unionised sectors and unionised industries all tend on average to offer more favourable terms and conditions over time.
Its a fact.
Some pilots join the only UK trade union for pilots and some don't. Shame we all don't. But heh - what can you do?
WWW
The bottom line is that unionised companies, unionised sectors and unionised industries all tend on average to offer more favourable terms and conditions over time.
Its a fact.
Some pilots join the only UK trade union for pilots and some don't. Shame we all don't. But heh - what can you do?
WWW
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It was never advertised as a scientific poll WWW and as my previous post showed I am more than willing to bring its failings to the attention even if it may attract criticism from those who don't agree with its results.
Rather than find holes in the security, it may be more worthwhile to question the integrity of those who may have acted to push things a little more to favour their standpoint.
Also a rather questionable statement directed against the IPA from someone who should be demonstrating objectivity.
Rather than find holes in the security, it may be more worthwhile to question the integrity of those who may have acted to push things a little more to favour their standpoint.
Also a rather questionable statement directed against the IPA from someone who should be demonstrating objectivity.
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It was never advertised as a scientific poll WWW and as my previous post showed I am more than willing to bring its failings to the attention even if it may attract criticism from those who don't agree with its results.
Rather than find holes in the security, it may be more worthwhile to question the integrity of those who may have acted to push things a little more to favour their standpoint.
Also a rather questionable statement directed against the IPA from someone who should be demonstrating objectivity.
Rather than find holes in the security, it may be more worthwhile to question the integrity of those who may have acted to push things a little more to favour their standpoint.
Also a rather questionable statement directed against the IPA from someone who should be demonstrating objectivity.
I have declined the invitation to vote on this as I do not want to skew the results but I can envisage others who may not have such scruples distorting things and then using their own distortion to argue their own for/anti stance.
In light of your admission perhaps you should close this thread, it seems more divisive than you may have intended. And we don't want that, do we?
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Wee Weasley Welshman
Some pilots join the only UK trade union for pilots and some don't. Shame we all don't. But heh - what can you do?
Whilst not wishing to sway anyone's opinion on this thread, I feel that a response is required when a moderator makes a biased statement, as above. It is incorrect, and does not reflect well on this forum.
I merely remind people that there is another trade union for pilots - I.P.A.
Whilst not wishing to sway anyone's opinion on this thread, I feel that a response is required when a moderator makes a biased statement, as above. It is incorrect, and does not reflect well on this forum.
I merely remind people that there is another trade union for pilots - I.P.A.