Let's make our Profession prestigious again
I have to agree with hooby. I am not an airline pilot, to some extent by choice, and I deplore the the current lack of status of professional pilots. (Certainly compared to TV presenters, X-factor contestants, Feng Shui consultants, etc). But you have to accept that a career choice that was considered "sexy" 25 years ago may not be any longer. I can give several examples.
It is not helped by members of the "profession" who spend an inordinate amount of time complaining about seniority and pension rights.
It is not helped by members of the "profession" who spend an inordinate amount of time complaining about seniority and pension rights.
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Dangerous assumptions
VONKLUFFEN has been rightly praised for his United Airlines "Streetwise" / Airmanship posting. Sadly the conclusions (which appear to have been written by the poster) leave MUCH to be desired!
To suggest that manual flying skills ("stick and rudder") are somehow made irrelevant by this airline questionnaire is absurd. Sadly, basic flying skills have been forgotten in an environment of automation. Understanding how an aeropane handles and why the AP makes the changes to pitch , roll and power cannot be learned purely from scanning during autoflight. When properly briefed, disconnecting the AP to practice those rusty manual skills occasionally is intrinsically a good way to develop a pilot's airmanship.
Far more accidents/incidents have resulted from WRONG pilot inputs than the VONKLUFFEN post acknowledges. Here are a few more recent ones:
Colgan Q400: 50 RIP
Colgan Air Flight 3407 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Incorrect stall recovery (Captain fought stick shaker) after icing led to spin on approach.
TFly 737: (thankfully no loss)
http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/B..._UK,_2007_(LOC)
Autothrottle disconnect un-noticed speed bleed back and applying full power against full aft trim resulted in stall and 44 deg nose up attitude.
American Airlines A300-600 lost its tailfin: 265 RIP
American Airlines Flight 587 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
After wake turbulence upset, poor use of rudder by FO resulted in fin separation and subsequent loss of directional stability.
A320 Hard landing: (a/c damaged, thankfully no casualties):
Uncorrected poor technique led trainee to land A320 hard
""The aircraft demands a relatively high level of 'assured' skill from the trainee their ability to land the aircraft correctly, consistently, should not be in doubt before base training commences and certainly not in doubt during line training where passengers are carried," says the AAIB's inquiry."
It is precisely the attitude that in modern flying machines the computers can do all the work and a pilot is just there to monitor them that is causing worldwide concern over pilot training and experience. Ok so you are monitoring when things go ****up and the aeroplane hands you full manual control - what does the pilot do? We may never know what happened on the AF447 A330 last June, but we know the pilots faced conflicting airspeed indications. Attitude and power settings are in the QRH but what if there is no time to read it?
BEA Confirms Conflicting Airspeed Indications from Air France A330: AINonline
Practicing standard engine failures in the SIM to meet FAA/CAA basic standards using Airline SOPs is all well and good but does not prepare for the unexpected such as the Hudson A320 birdstrike.
More posts here on pprune:
USA looking at min 1500h ruling for Airline pilots:
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...-airplane.html
Airbus concerned over pilot handling skills:
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/3...ys-airbus.html
To suggest that manual flying skills ("stick and rudder") are somehow made irrelevant by this airline questionnaire is absurd. Sadly, basic flying skills have been forgotten in an environment of automation. Understanding how an aeropane handles and why the AP makes the changes to pitch , roll and power cannot be learned purely from scanning during autoflight. When properly briefed, disconnecting the AP to practice those rusty manual skills occasionally is intrinsically a good way to develop a pilot's airmanship.
Far more accidents/incidents have resulted from WRONG pilot inputs than the VONKLUFFEN post acknowledges. Here are a few more recent ones:
Colgan Q400: 50 RIP
Colgan Air Flight 3407 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Incorrect stall recovery (Captain fought stick shaker) after icing led to spin on approach.
TFly 737: (thankfully no loss)
http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/B..._UK,_2007_(LOC)
Autothrottle disconnect un-noticed speed bleed back and applying full power against full aft trim resulted in stall and 44 deg nose up attitude.
American Airlines A300-600 lost its tailfin: 265 RIP
American Airlines Flight 587 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
After wake turbulence upset, poor use of rudder by FO resulted in fin separation and subsequent loss of directional stability.
A320 Hard landing: (a/c damaged, thankfully no casualties):
Uncorrected poor technique led trainee to land A320 hard
""The aircraft demands a relatively high level of 'assured' skill from the trainee their ability to land the aircraft correctly, consistently, should not be in doubt before base training commences and certainly not in doubt during line training where passengers are carried," says the AAIB's inquiry."
It is precisely the attitude that in modern flying machines the computers can do all the work and a pilot is just there to monitor them that is causing worldwide concern over pilot training and experience. Ok so you are monitoring when things go ****up and the aeroplane hands you full manual control - what does the pilot do? We may never know what happened on the AF447 A330 last June, but we know the pilots faced conflicting airspeed indications. Attitude and power settings are in the QRH but what if there is no time to read it?
BEA Confirms Conflicting Airspeed Indications from Air France A330: AINonline
Practicing standard engine failures in the SIM to meet FAA/CAA basic standards using Airline SOPs is all well and good but does not prepare for the unexpected such as the Hudson A320 birdstrike.
More posts here on pprune:
USA looking at min 1500h ruling for Airline pilots:
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...-airplane.html
Airbus concerned over pilot handling skills:
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/3...ys-airbus.html
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Qualification as an 'airline pilot' by virtue of an ATPL is not a 'profession' in the accepted sense but a technical occupation.
The 'professions' require examination (first degree) and training to be eligible for membership. Common examples include solicitors (the Law Society), accountants (Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales) and surveyors (Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors).
There is no professional body or training for airline pilots, other than a technical qualification gained by passing the relevant ATPL exams.
If you check the magistrates website and obtain a list of occupations you will see that the above 'professions' are listed whereas airline pilots and air traffic controllers are classed as technical occupations.
Whilst the training and ability or pilots is without doubt comparable with other so-called professions, pilots are not classed as such.
Without the representation of a professional body pilots lack the 'teeth' to fight as the other professions do to acquire the status now enjoyed by the main professional bodies.
Unfortunately some pilots see BALPA as their representative body, but with all due respect it is not the same thing.
Whilst I winge about the service I receive from my professional body (fees £500 plus per annum) it does provide the means by which I earn a living (status and prestige, as well as a requirement for most employment). I would have been lost without the facility provided by professional membership throughout my career.
This lack of representation and unity (not in a trade union sense) is a big drawback and can be argued to be at the root of the maladies suffered by the airline 'profession' at the moment.
So until pilots have a professional body to represent them (Institute of Chartered Pilots seems a good title!!!) and the industry remains fragmented it will be difficult to achieve the level of respect from those in management who are professionals by qualifications - 'bean counters' will often be Chartered Accountants for example.
Maybe this is the way forward? Institutes can be formed and run without Chartered status. This approach would follow that of the other professions and might enable flight crew to gain professional status, but more importantly collective representation.
KR
FOK
The 'professions' require examination (first degree) and training to be eligible for membership. Common examples include solicitors (the Law Society), accountants (Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales) and surveyors (Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors).
There is no professional body or training for airline pilots, other than a technical qualification gained by passing the relevant ATPL exams.
If you check the magistrates website and obtain a list of occupations you will see that the above 'professions' are listed whereas airline pilots and air traffic controllers are classed as technical occupations.
Whilst the training and ability or pilots is without doubt comparable with other so-called professions, pilots are not classed as such.
Without the representation of a professional body pilots lack the 'teeth' to fight as the other professions do to acquire the status now enjoyed by the main professional bodies.
Unfortunately some pilots see BALPA as their representative body, but with all due respect it is not the same thing.
Whilst I winge about the service I receive from my professional body (fees £500 plus per annum) it does provide the means by which I earn a living (status and prestige, as well as a requirement for most employment). I would have been lost without the facility provided by professional membership throughout my career.
This lack of representation and unity (not in a trade union sense) is a big drawback and can be argued to be at the root of the maladies suffered by the airline 'profession' at the moment.
So until pilots have a professional body to represent them (Institute of Chartered Pilots seems a good title!!!) and the industry remains fragmented it will be difficult to achieve the level of respect from those in management who are professionals by qualifications - 'bean counters' will often be Chartered Accountants for example.
Maybe this is the way forward? Institutes can be formed and run without Chartered status. This approach would follow that of the other professions and might enable flight crew to gain professional status, but more importantly collective representation.
KR
FOK
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New Pilot Organization For ALL??
Alright.
I kinda just wanted to see how people in general are thinking and by that i am posting this in hope of a Reply.
I have been involved in Aviation for the past soon 10 years and worked as a Pilot around the Globe. I have been one of the both Fortunate but also Unfortunate and i know everyone have their own opinions and ideas about our industry, but i at this point are about to have had enough.
What i am talking about is how we as pilot now are set as a level where we might even be flipping burgers at Mc.D. Pilots are over and over being downgraded, stepped on and looked at in a sense that were pretty much nothing.
It is everywhere all around the world, YES some are fortunate and i have been there myself worked for a stable company who takes care of their people, but there is few and far between these, and many pilots often the new once are being used like slave labour... Is it our own fault somewhat yes, many say we should have looked ahead and expected the worst, that life is tough and too bad... Yes it is our own fault that we fall inlove with a profession which is rotten, a profession that most people spend over 50.000Pounds to educate themselves in. A profession where even the local CAA agencies tend to work against you then with you. A profession where you are bound to work for years to pay back your loans to the bank.
A profession where major airlines make you pay for training, make you pay to work and treat you like your nothing.
Through years i been listening to Pilots, friends colleagues talking about how aviation have become not just a nightmare but something that have made them regret ever stepping into. How they have to fight not just with their companies but the industry in general. Just looking at every situation that happens around the world, i.e like airport security problems. Governments scream up and want to make changes, which in turn makes the pilots life even harder, but of EVERYONE do they ever ask the pilots for advice, do they ever talk to the people who are actually incharge when the door is closed. They dont and they never do.
Airlines like Easy Jet who try to hire pilots who have gone through a school like Oxford and payed an outrages amount over 50.000 pounds for their license, wants to bring in new young lowtime guys and make them pay an extra 34.000 pounds to get a typerating that cost them less then 10.000pounds. Killing the industry, people can blame they young pilots but someone should stand up against companies like Easy jet, and other big or small companies who are taking advantage...
People will say, well supply and demand, sure but remember one day you will be the person who sits in the right or left seat after paying ur way inside and you will now get kicked out the same way u came in....
What i with all my blaber are trying to see is if there are people who here like me have been saying to themselves, ENOUGH!!!!
People who would be interested in setting up an organization that will look at all areas in aviation, who will stand up for the little guy when needed, who will speak up when ignored by authorities or companies.
An organization that will go against the flow and try to start to fix some of the major problems we have, both with the airlines, private companies and governments, across borders.. Who will speak up when changes are being made that will affect our work and living in a more negative way. Who will speak up when the CAA or other authorities are making changes or regulations that are completely waist of breath.
I know there are several organizations out there but truth be told which ever way you look at it none of them have done a very good job, hence the situation were in now.
Anyways was just wondering if others was thinking the same or thinking it could be an idea?
Take care
I kinda just wanted to see how people in general are thinking and by that i am posting this in hope of a Reply.
I have been involved in Aviation for the past soon 10 years and worked as a Pilot around the Globe. I have been one of the both Fortunate but also Unfortunate and i know everyone have their own opinions and ideas about our industry, but i at this point are about to have had enough.
What i am talking about is how we as pilot now are set as a level where we might even be flipping burgers at Mc.D. Pilots are over and over being downgraded, stepped on and looked at in a sense that were pretty much nothing.
It is everywhere all around the world, YES some are fortunate and i have been there myself worked for a stable company who takes care of their people, but there is few and far between these, and many pilots often the new once are being used like slave labour... Is it our own fault somewhat yes, many say we should have looked ahead and expected the worst, that life is tough and too bad... Yes it is our own fault that we fall inlove with a profession which is rotten, a profession that most people spend over 50.000Pounds to educate themselves in. A profession where even the local CAA agencies tend to work against you then with you. A profession where you are bound to work for years to pay back your loans to the bank.
A profession where major airlines make you pay for training, make you pay to work and treat you like your nothing.
Through years i been listening to Pilots, friends colleagues talking about how aviation have become not just a nightmare but something that have made them regret ever stepping into. How they have to fight not just with their companies but the industry in general. Just looking at every situation that happens around the world, i.e like airport security problems. Governments scream up and want to make changes, which in turn makes the pilots life even harder, but of EVERYONE do they ever ask the pilots for advice, do they ever talk to the people who are actually incharge when the door is closed. They dont and they never do.
Airlines like Easy Jet who try to hire pilots who have gone through a school like Oxford and payed an outrages amount over 50.000 pounds for their license, wants to bring in new young lowtime guys and make them pay an extra 34.000 pounds to get a typerating that cost them less then 10.000pounds. Killing the industry, people can blame they young pilots but someone should stand up against companies like Easy jet, and other big or small companies who are taking advantage...
People will say, well supply and demand, sure but remember one day you will be the person who sits in the right or left seat after paying ur way inside and you will now get kicked out the same way u came in....
What i with all my blaber are trying to see is if there are people who here like me have been saying to themselves, ENOUGH!!!!
People who would be interested in setting up an organization that will look at all areas in aviation, who will stand up for the little guy when needed, who will speak up when ignored by authorities or companies.
An organization that will go against the flow and try to start to fix some of the major problems we have, both with the airlines, private companies and governments, across borders.. Who will speak up when changes are being made that will affect our work and living in a more negative way. Who will speak up when the CAA or other authorities are making changes or regulations that are completely waist of breath.
I know there are several organizations out there but truth be told which ever way you look at it none of them have done a very good job, hence the situation were in now.
Anyways was just wondering if others was thinking the same or thinking it could be an idea?
Take care
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Self Sponsored Command
I totally agree with you, mate
People will become increasingly aware of the deep we are in the sh*t when they see the first SELF SPONSORED COMMAND courses.
VONKLUFFEN's post is great, but I would like to make a comment.
It says several times than studiying and reviewing is necessary (even if many pilot's themselves don't "admit" it, as if it was a weakness)
So, How on Earth will a guy be a good pilot who studies and reviews if he has never studied before becoming a pilot?
The system should make sure that a wannabee has good studiying skills before letting him begin with the training. And the training itself should include basic maths and physics for those who don't know much about them.
Finally I would like to say that, in the 21st century, the whole licencing issue should be totally changed. I can make a syllabus for a 4 year university degree that would be as hard to finish as any other degree that would make airline pilots be the best they could. Why should those unable to pass it have the right to become a airline pilot instead of those who are able?
There will be a day we ALL say ENOUGH. But we need to dive even deeper in the sh*t.
You will see
People will become increasingly aware of the deep we are in the sh*t when they see the first SELF SPONSORED COMMAND courses.
VONKLUFFEN's post is great, but I would like to make a comment.
It says several times than studiying and reviewing is necessary (even if many pilot's themselves don't "admit" it, as if it was a weakness)
So, How on Earth will a guy be a good pilot who studies and reviews if he has never studied before becoming a pilot?
The system should make sure that a wannabee has good studiying skills before letting him begin with the training. And the training itself should include basic maths and physics for those who don't know much about them.
Finally I would like to say that, in the 21st century, the whole licencing issue should be totally changed. I can make a syllabus for a 4 year university degree that would be as hard to finish as any other degree that would make airline pilots be the best they could. Why should those unable to pass it have the right to become a airline pilot instead of those who are able?
There will be a day we ALL say ENOUGH. But we need to dive even deeper in the sh*t.
You will see
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This job is not easier than it used to be. It is way more difficult !!! The aray of skills required is a lot wider and deeper. Dure guys used to have to keep tracks from VOR to VOR and they had to follow glide paths manually. But trafic was so much lighter. Legal issues were not as critical as they are today. CRM wasn't even a concept. Aircraft systems were so much simpler and "down to earth" oriented. Things did not go that fast. Airspaces were simple. The amound of constraints did not compare to today's. Commercial aspects of the job had nothing to do with the necessity of today's requirements in terms of commercial presence (pax remember captains' announcements and general behavior, not marketing peoples' actions). Passengers, monthly flights were fewer.
Ground staff who think this job is easier simply show the depth of their ignorance. They simply have no clue as to how demanding this job is in 2010.
Let's be proud !
Ground staff who think this job is easier simply show the depth of their ignorance. They simply have no clue as to how demanding this job is in 2010.
Let's be proud !
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Lets face it.....the ONLY real problem - that kicks all the mess off - are money-hungry FLIGHT SCHOOLS.
I have visited such an establishment ONCE on their open day, just because I was curious (trained modular myself), and you wouldn't believe all the shi* that's spouted over the group of 18-21 year olds!!!
Retired Airline Pilot at the desk with a huge Boeing 777 model on it, everybody is "oooh aaaah". First question from the audience ( I kid you not! ):
"so if i train with you i get to fly a jet after flight school? not one of those small propeller planes?"
People PAY type ratings because flying a turboprop, let a lone a small multi engine G/A aircraft would make them feel ashamed
That was all put in their head by the flight schools - start there and get the FAA model back. 1000 hrs min for a jet!!! ...that would give you only dedicated folks who are willing to work their way up, not pay their way in!
I have visited such an establishment ONCE on their open day, just because I was curious (trained modular myself), and you wouldn't believe all the shi* that's spouted over the group of 18-21 year olds!!!
Retired Airline Pilot at the desk with a huge Boeing 777 model on it, everybody is "oooh aaaah". First question from the audience ( I kid you not! ):
"so if i train with you i get to fly a jet after flight school? not one of those small propeller planes?"
People PAY type ratings because flying a turboprop, let a lone a small multi engine G/A aircraft would make them feel ashamed
That was all put in their head by the flight schools - start there and get the FAA model back. 1000 hrs min for a jet!!! ...that would give you only dedicated folks who are willing to work their way up, not pay their way in!
I' m saying it out loud:
I AM A TURBOPROP PILOT AND I AM PROUD!
Oh, I spent some time on the shiny jet. If anything it was easier to handle and much more comfortable than any of the t-props I've flown.
I don't care about glamour, I'll take obscurity anytime. Just give me decent salary, decent and stable roster, maintain your aeroplanes properly, recognize when I go above the line of duty and at least say "thank you" afterwards, support me when times get hairy and never, ever put me in the situation where I have to decide between losing my job for not breaking the law or risking the loss of my licence If I get caught.
Oh, I spent some time on the shiny jet. If anything it was easier to handle and much more comfortable than any of the t-props I've flown.
I don't care about glamour, I'll take obscurity anytime. Just give me decent salary, decent and stable roster, maintain your aeroplanes properly, recognize when I go above the line of duty and at least say "thank you" afterwards, support me when times get hairy and never, ever put me in the situation where I have to decide between losing my job for not breaking the law or risking the loss of my licence If I get caught.
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"Retired Airline Pilot at the desk with a huge Boeing 777 model on it, everybody is "oooh aaaah". First question from the audience ( I kid you not! ):
"so if i train with you i get to fly a jet after flight school? not one of those small propeller planes?""
Very true!
Alas it has to do with the X factor/consumer culture we now face in the "developed" world. It teaches image is more important than substance.
Look at the cinema. Almost gone are the the days of the good story line in films now it's more about how many millions are made on opening night and special effects.
Gone too are the heros with character, now it's about celebrity culture. The young are taught that the only way to have meaning is to be famous and make a lot of money preferably with the least amount of work. Hence fame and fortune are sold as the answer to their wants. And the bigger Flight Schools sell an image (like a mirage in todays economic climate).
"so if i train with you i get to fly a jet after flight school? not one of those small propeller planes?""
Very true!
Alas it has to do with the X factor/consumer culture we now face in the "developed" world. It teaches image is more important than substance.
Look at the cinema. Almost gone are the the days of the good story line in films now it's more about how many millions are made on opening night and special effects.
Gone too are the heros with character, now it's about celebrity culture. The young are taught that the only way to have meaning is to be famous and make a lot of money preferably with the least amount of work. Hence fame and fortune are sold as the answer to their wants. And the bigger Flight Schools sell an image (like a mirage in todays economic climate).
Thread Starter
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The way forward is to make entry into the schools more difficult through assessments (will weed-out these "i only wanna fly the shiny jet thanks to daddies cash, I will only sdudy the question bank" type of youngsters), increase the proficiency level in flying (stick and rudder), go more in-depth into the basics of flying, eg. meteorology, Aerodynamics,... put an official degree at the end that combined with an unfrozen ATPL and type-rating is equivalent to a Masters degree (this will assure better job prospects in difficult times or after losing your medical) and... forbid airlines to do the "pay-to-fly" scam.
This is a regulatory issue and it is high time that we, as a community of aviators take action!
It is also our responsibility of experienced people to protect our younger collegues who are just starting out and who have the right attitude.
Up to now, I have never seen a more lame and divided, useless professional community then us, pilots! REFUSE to fly with pay-to-fly cadets! REFUSE ANY MORE CRAP from management that degrades our profession!
Please start to put pressure on your authorities and government, please (B)ALPA, IALPA, BeCA, SEPLA, FIA etc... Put your fingers out of your behinds and do your job!
This is a regulatory issue and it is high time that we, as a community of aviators take action!
It is also our responsibility of experienced people to protect our younger collegues who are just starting out and who have the right attitude.
Up to now, I have never seen a more lame and divided, useless professional community then us, pilots! REFUSE to fly with pay-to-fly cadets! REFUSE ANY MORE CRAP from management that degrades our profession!
Please start to put pressure on your authorities and government, please (B)ALPA, IALPA, BeCA, SEPLA, FIA etc... Put your fingers out of your behinds and do your job!
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I cannot remember where I read this but it was not marketing hype, The JAA ATPL Theory course is equivalent to a 2 year degree course and there are institutions which recognise this.
Also the argument about pilots don't fly anymore, they are only there to monitor, it's all automated yada yada yada...We are 21st century humans after all, automation is expected and exists in many other industries. I can think of hundreds of job titiles where one's job is simply to monitor; and react when needed. Those people however do not have responsibility for other peoples lives.
Also the argument about pilots don't fly anymore, they are only there to monitor, it's all automated yada yada yada...We are 21st century humans after all, automation is expected and exists in many other industries. I can think of hundreds of job titiles where one's job is simply to monitor; and react when needed. Those people however do not have responsibility for other peoples lives.
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INNflight said...
YES, YES AND YES.
This approach is a common theme in many countries worldwide - USA and Canada being notable. Nothing can replace the valuable learning experiences that are (IMHO) fundamental to working your way up to high powered, high speed machinery. And I am not talking about how to program an FMS or such like - nope I am talking about the raw DECISION MAKING SKILLS that only come from starting small and working towards large, and all the experience that comes with it.
Over the pond you start instructing, then perhaps Air Taxi / MEP then regional etc etc. If there weren't so many guys willing to pay an SSTR immediately after flight school, supply would be better aligned with demand and the airlines would have to re-think their hiring strategies. In the same vein, if SSTR was out of favour due to a 1000hr min for jets, the flood of wannabes would be restricted to guys who were truly prepared to start from the bottom and work up. That would also make the schools re-think their (morally questionable) strategies for training.
1000 hrs min for a jet!!! ...that would give you only dedicated folks who are willing to work their way up, not pay their way in!
This approach is a common theme in many countries worldwide - USA and Canada being notable. Nothing can replace the valuable learning experiences that are (IMHO) fundamental to working your way up to high powered, high speed machinery. And I am not talking about how to program an FMS or such like - nope I am talking about the raw DECISION MAKING SKILLS that only come from starting small and working towards large, and all the experience that comes with it.
Over the pond you start instructing, then perhaps Air Taxi / MEP then regional etc etc. If there weren't so many guys willing to pay an SSTR immediately after flight school, supply would be better aligned with demand and the airlines would have to re-think their hiring strategies. In the same vein, if SSTR was out of favour due to a 1000hr min for jets, the flood of wannabes would be restricted to guys who were truly prepared to start from the bottom and work up. That would also make the schools re-think their (morally questionable) strategies for training.
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I quite like the approach airline such as Royal Brunei take; cadets after training are sent on secondment to a regional turboprop company to build up experience in an airline environment and then after a couple of years transfer back to the company and onto their "shiney" jets.
The uproar which is happening at the moment, if you remove the paying for ratings and line training argument, is that effectively guys are skipping levels of the career ladder to get straight onto a jet, which is understandable, we all at some point considered the nice idea of flying short/longhaul shiney jets, but because they are doing that companies are paying them entry level pay, because they are entry level pilots, eroding terms and conditions of what was an upper level rung of the career ladder.
Sticking it out in smaller less paid jobs with lower terms and conditions is perfectly acceptable for many, because there was a great working atmosphere with excellent fun flying, hands on flying, and after a couple of years, you knew there would be an opportunity to move on to a better paid job.
The first rungs of the ladder will always be there its just they have moved further away from the ground. Earn 20,000 flying a turboprop enjoying yourself knowing youll get a double of triple pay rise in a few years, or jump straight onto a jet earn 20,000 miss out on valuable experience and MISS OUT ON FLYING THE PLANE NOT OPERATING IT and then by taking the jet route remove the opportunity to earn more money. What these guys dont realise is that there is nothing wrong with flying light twins or turboprops in fact its when your actually learning to be a pilot, are a pilot and not an operator. Like to see some of these new low experience guys fly these shiny jets with a u/s autopilot for four sectors with four NPAs. Those who have previously taken the traditional route, if they were to encounter a day such as that wouldnt find it unsettling, because they can go back to their previous experience.
If an airline must preselect then preselect from regional companies and arrange to back fill the regional companies with eager to learn cadets. Surely Oxford with all its contacts could set up a scheme between themselves and several "stepping stone" training airlines and easyjet.
FLYING A TURBOPROP IS FUN, isnt that why we all wanted to be a pilots, to FLY?
The uproar which is happening at the moment, if you remove the paying for ratings and line training argument, is that effectively guys are skipping levels of the career ladder to get straight onto a jet, which is understandable, we all at some point considered the nice idea of flying short/longhaul shiney jets, but because they are doing that companies are paying them entry level pay, because they are entry level pilots, eroding terms and conditions of what was an upper level rung of the career ladder.
Sticking it out in smaller less paid jobs with lower terms and conditions is perfectly acceptable for many, because there was a great working atmosphere with excellent fun flying, hands on flying, and after a couple of years, you knew there would be an opportunity to move on to a better paid job.
The first rungs of the ladder will always be there its just they have moved further away from the ground. Earn 20,000 flying a turboprop enjoying yourself knowing youll get a double of triple pay rise in a few years, or jump straight onto a jet earn 20,000 miss out on valuable experience and MISS OUT ON FLYING THE PLANE NOT OPERATING IT and then by taking the jet route remove the opportunity to earn more money. What these guys dont realise is that there is nothing wrong with flying light twins or turboprops in fact its when your actually learning to be a pilot, are a pilot and not an operator. Like to see some of these new low experience guys fly these shiny jets with a u/s autopilot for four sectors with four NPAs. Those who have previously taken the traditional route, if they were to encounter a day such as that wouldnt find it unsettling, because they can go back to their previous experience.
If an airline must preselect then preselect from regional companies and arrange to back fill the regional companies with eager to learn cadets. Surely Oxford with all its contacts could set up a scheme between themselves and several "stepping stone" training airlines and easyjet.
FLYING A TURBOPROP IS FUN, isnt that why we all wanted to be a pilots, to FLY?
Last edited by PaulW; 9th Jan 2010 at 15:39.
Join Date: Dec 2002
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Tell the EU and EASA
As my great grandfather used to say in his 90s, "The day you stop learning is the day you are getting old"
Agree with INNflight on the idea of a 1000h rule for JAR25 jets and PaulW's view on apprentice type scheme.
However, it is not enough to post on pprune. It is time to write to the rule makers and with the advent of EASA replacing JAR we can have a say in that. Vice President Tajani is responsible for EU Transport and is aware of EU pilot training.
Write your concerns to:
Diego Canga Fano
Deputy Head of Cabinet to VP Tajani
European Commission
200, rue de la Loi
BERL 12/384
B-1049 Brussels (Belgium)
Tel. (+32) (0)2.29-21340
Fax (+32) (0)2.29-21.349
Agree with INNflight on the idea of a 1000h rule for JAR25 jets and PaulW's view on apprentice type scheme.
However, it is not enough to post on pprune. It is time to write to the rule makers and with the advent of EASA replacing JAR we can have a say in that. Vice President Tajani is responsible for EU Transport and is aware of EU pilot training.
Write your concerns to:
Diego Canga Fano
Deputy Head of Cabinet to VP Tajani
European Commission
200, rue de la Loi
BERL 12/384
B-1049 Brussels (Belgium)
Tel. (+32) (0)2.29-21340
Fax (+32) (0)2.29-21.349
I have defintely noticed that over the last few years it has become a downword trend with various pilots ive worked with comparing their aviation career in a "SIZE" related thing. The moneys certainly reduced with increased work and the jobmarket competition has in some cases come down to "stabbing" in the back or spreading rumours.
Ive got many years left if I want it. Im not sure if I do.
Its a great vocation not JUST a job.
Ciao
Ive got many years left if I want it. Im not sure if I do.
Its a great vocation not JUST a job.
Ciao
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It is a good idea to increase the required experience level of airline pilots, but in Europe the 1500 hour rule is not realistic.
So my suggestion to EASA is to make a 1000 hour rule, of which 500 hours can be on gliders or touring motor gliders for pilots working in commercial personnel transport.
This will provide the industry with more experienced pilots with good handling skills and will also put a stop to the Oxford/CTC scams.
So my suggestion to EASA is to make a 1000 hour rule, of which 500 hours can be on gliders or touring motor gliders for pilots working in commercial personnel transport.
This will provide the industry with more experienced pilots with good handling skills and will also put a stop to the Oxford/CTC scams.
Join Date: Dec 2006
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The more people that bombard EASA with setting a min. concerning pilot hours for hiring, the quicker they may get off their ass and look into this subject. The sad fact is that nobody will make a rule until there is a crash here similar to the one in Buffalo, NY. But...if there is a chance then we should start writing! New min. hour requirement for new hires = better terms and conditions for all of us! This is the only way to stop the CtC and Oxford madness.
Here is a Easa email I found. Probably nobody reads it, but worth a shot.
Related to rulemaking:
Please also refer to our
Rulemaking Frequently Asked Questions page.
Here is a Easa email I found. Probably nobody reads it, but worth a shot.
Related to rulemaking:
Please also refer to our
Rulemaking Frequently Asked Questions page.
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Cpt. Sunshine
Good letter and it scans well.
I'd also include something about the incredibly poor salary for the cadet while on the pay to fly contract so not being able to sustain themselves properly and potential safety issues surrounding stressed, fatigued and disenchanted crew.
I think that it would be the safetly issues that may make them take notice. Take a look at the other thread about the Guardian newspaper article!
I'd also include something about the incredibly poor salary for the cadet while on the pay to fly contract so not being able to sustain themselves properly and potential safety issues surrounding stressed, fatigued and disenchanted crew.
I think that it would be the safetly issues that may make them take notice. Take a look at the other thread about the Guardian newspaper article!