Let's make our Profession prestigious again
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kms901
On the basis of being a Licenced aircraft maintenance engineer I sign passport applications and the authoritys are happy with this.
I have never tried to use my ATPL status for this.........perhaps I should with the next one!
I have never tried to use my ATPL status for this.........perhaps I should with the next one!
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Vonkluffen
Excellent post! I can't help noticing that the info originated with United. Perhaps some of those stalwart defenders of the captain in the offload incident might like to reconsider and take some of these messages on board? Consideration mixes better with competence than arrogance.
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I was told that someone at Easyjet suggested that pilots should get pay matching there work..I.e you sit there and do nothing you get paid hardly anything.
In my honest opinion they way it is going, pilots are only there for when the sh*t hits the fan not to fly the plane and thats what they get paid for.
In my honest opinion they way it is going, pilots are only there for when the sh*t hits the fan not to fly the plane and thats what they get paid for.
They will not go: "Hmm, the wx report seems like there's going to be some heavy rainshowers with heavy crosswinds; I better ask somebody what's the wx like in my filed alternate. I should have a look at my fuel if I plan to deviate". See my point? Only a human, a PILOT, will do those things. Flying an airplane (read: Being a professional pilot) is not just one hand on the yoke and the other one on the throttles. It involves a sensational way of using your brain and all of your senses. And an airplane will not have that nowhere near (if ever!)
Sure automation might be a pilot's best friend if used correctly, but it can become quite rapidly in a pilot's worst enemy (see AA965 near Cali, Colombia, mid 1990's); and when that happens it's time to switch all the way back to basics as if one were all over again on flight schools. And that doesn't mean that
has hit the fan; it's going to hit it if one lets the situation evolve. It takes a trained professional pilot (without disrespecting the AA965 pilots) to get the flight back on track: The airplane will not do it (and I think it will never do it) by itself.
everybody has Flight Simulator
Best regards.
Ed
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Ocampo,
I agree with what you are saying 100% I am not agreeing with the fact pilots should get paid hardly anything for there skill in flying aircraft.
Seeing as your from Colombia may be your not translating my comments correctly and getting the wrong end of the stick. But I understand if that is the case
I agree with what you are saying 100% I am not agreeing with the fact pilots should get paid hardly anything for there skill in flying aircraft.
Seeing as your from Colombia may be your not translating my comments correctly and getting the wrong end of the stick. But I understand if that is the case
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The reason why I posted this is to stirr-up reactions.
This does seem to work...
Look, we are faced with pay-to-fly cadets, who hand money to fly commercially. Why is that? Simple: Because there is a vast overcapacity of young inexperienced pilots.
Make the entry into our profession harder and you will create a pilot shortage in the long-term, which is what we need to regain our conditions we had before. At the same time, we need to improve training and skill on the flightdeck. Captaincy seems to become a dying trade. Stick and rudder has to be taught from the first day at the flight academy as is captaincy. How can anyone say nowadays that gaining an ATPL is difficult?! What would they have done 10 years ago before the JAA examinations and the question-banks?! That was university level, but given four times as fast.
It are not only the Airlines who need to change their behaviour towards their Officers (and yes, that is what we are, some tend to forget it seems), but also the regulatory instances and ourselves.
This does seem to work...
Look, we are faced with pay-to-fly cadets, who hand money to fly commercially. Why is that? Simple: Because there is a vast overcapacity of young inexperienced pilots.
Make the entry into our profession harder and you will create a pilot shortage in the long-term, which is what we need to regain our conditions we had before. At the same time, we need to improve training and skill on the flightdeck. Captaincy seems to become a dying trade. Stick and rudder has to be taught from the first day at the flight academy as is captaincy. How can anyone say nowadays that gaining an ATPL is difficult?! What would they have done 10 years ago before the JAA examinations and the question-banks?! That was university level, but given four times as fast.
It are not only the Airlines who need to change their behaviour towards their Officers (and yes, that is what we are, some tend to forget it seems), but also the regulatory instances and ourselves.
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And as for being a profession, Doctors, Solicitors, Priests and Company Directors can sign your passport application as a reponsible member of the community, but can airline pilots ?
Who can countersign your application? : Directgov - Travel and transport
So can journalists.
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perhaps the answer ...
is for the bar to be replaced at it's previous level by the regulatory bodies.
The bar used to include minimum experience levels just to take the written exams for cpl issue, one was not allowed to take the ATPL exams unless you had at least 700 hours ... in other words, you had to go and do them all again so it was as well to know your subject.
Sorry if that offends some people, but the profession has to return to a quality driven model rather than a quantity driven one.
Not sure about "prestige" in the thread title, it ain't ego driven, fact is that the good should come through to the industry joining an airline flight deck as captains in training ... based on ability, aptitude, and a decent level of experience.
Just my thoughts, but I suspect I am not alone.
The bar used to include minimum experience levels just to take the written exams for cpl issue, one was not allowed to take the ATPL exams unless you had at least 700 hours ... in other words, you had to go and do them all again so it was as well to know your subject.
Sorry if that offends some people, but the profession has to return to a quality driven model rather than a quantity driven one.
Not sure about "prestige" in the thread title, it ain't ego driven, fact is that the good should come through to the industry joining an airline flight deck as captains in training ... based on ability, aptitude, and a decent level of experience.
Just my thoughts, but I suspect I am not alone.
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@ punk666
But this is management we are talking about here!!
Seeing as your from Colombia may be your not translating my comments correctly and getting the wrong end of the stick. But I understand if that is the case
On the "management" side of things, I agree with you (and some others). Companies (especially the big ones) treat us like we are not humans.
Here's an example:
Work/rest and duty assignment regulations in this country implies that you cannot have more than 5 consecutive assignments (days), except in one: the 6th assignment can only be as a "Tripadi" (additional crew member, I think it is known in English as dead-head, is that right?). So said company interprets this wrongly and they decided to put the dead-head anywhere between those 6 consecutive days (as a blank day) taking away one possible rest time and making pilots fly 6 consecutive days! Moreover, at the end of the month pilots could be right on the limit (90 hours) or even being at the limit before the month ends because they are doing 6 legs (each of 45 mins in average) on a single day. I don't know much about it, but it seems a bit excessive to me.
I remember I once heard a F/O friend of mine saying "they are kicking the tombstone, and one of these days the tombstone will fly and hit an airplane"
Not too long ago there was the mess in Europe with the work/rest regulations: Dead-tired.
As someone said earlier: Being a pilot these days seems to be above a Wal-Mart manager, but with worse hours.
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In Spain, pilots with 1500h (unfrozen ATPL) are considered Engineers with a University Degree. This is our aim.
[rant on]
I'm all for pilots gaining extra respect, but pilots and professional engineers do 2 very different jobs. I just dont see how 1500 hour pilots are qualified to do the things engineers can do (eg designing electronic circuits, buildings, mines, machines etc depending on discpline).
As an engineer, one of the things that really bugs me is people upsurping the title. The general public sees "sanitation engineers" (rubbish collectors) "sales engineers" (marketing) "Microsoft Certified Sysgtems Engineers" (sysadmins) etc etc. None of these people could solve a differential equation to save their lives.
Here's a link to an Australian syllabus: Course list for the Bachelor of Engineering - Courses and Programs - The University of Queensland, Australia - I'd imagine it isn't that different from a USA or European one. Please tell me how the ATPLs, which are certainly tricky, go into the same depth as a 4 year fulltime university program.
[rant off]
I wish you the best of luck increasing the status for your profession. In the process, please don't contribute to the decline of mine.
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We can whinge about it all day (and we do) but at some stage you have to face facts and they are that our profession has changed (and it is a profession).
On restricting supply to improve T’s & C’s:
Errrr no -if you think this is going to improve your lot then think again!
Pilot numbers have ballooned. Why? Because so has air travel!! Not because of self-sponsored pilots or people buying type-ratings, etc, etc. Stop blaming things like this for your predicament because this and many of our other complaints are effects and not the cause. Much of this growth has come from LCC’s who operate on an entirely different philosophy. Have you not heard the term ‘New Model Airline’?
And what is more:
More passengers = more airlines = more aircraft = more jobs
There is one thing that trying school cannot equip new pilots with and that is experience. The target is the LHS so if you maintain appropriate experience requirements and standards to attain this (which all operators should) then this creates a barrier that really is worth something: experience cannot be bought. I fully appreciate that it is F/O salaries that are the worst affected by this contemporary state of affairs but you just have to keep in mind your long-term objective and find a job that gives you a clear path to your goal. And in reality this is really no different to any other profession.
On restricting supply to improve T’s & C’s:
Errrr no -if you think this is going to improve your lot then think again!
Pilot numbers have ballooned. Why? Because so has air travel!! Not because of self-sponsored pilots or people buying type-ratings, etc, etc. Stop blaming things like this for your predicament because this and many of our other complaints are effects and not the cause. Much of this growth has come from LCC’s who operate on an entirely different philosophy. Have you not heard the term ‘New Model Airline’?
And what is more:
More passengers = more airlines = more aircraft = more jobs
There is one thing that trying school cannot equip new pilots with and that is experience. The target is the LHS so if you maintain appropriate experience requirements and standards to attain this (which all operators should) then this creates a barrier that really is worth something: experience cannot be bought. I fully appreciate that it is F/O salaries that are the worst affected by this contemporary state of affairs but you just have to keep in mind your long-term objective and find a job that gives you a clear path to your goal. And in reality this is really no different to any other profession.
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Despegue - you clearly don't know much about modern pilot training. It's not easy, I don't care what you say. If you visited a modern integrated course you would see the dedication and hard work that goes into achieving a frozen ATPL. 6 months full time groundschool - followed by at least 12 months flying training - all unpaid ("Daddy's money" is a rarity in my experience). Would you do it? It is bloody hard work frankly. Yes there are question banks, but they do not help with all the exams. You still need hard work and study to achieve the results. Many people complete these courses with a background of financial and family problems and they do so in a thoroughly professional way. The flying training is also not easy and is not completed by a large number of people who are chopped at all stages of the training. You know as well as I do that passing a multi-IR is no mean feat especially when its done on some antiquated bucket with no modern equipment. THEN you have to find a job, again not easy. Many people do not get through sim-checks etc because their flying skills are simply not upto it. Once you have a job you have to pass the TR - with a background only on (at best) light twins, it is a major achievement to get through it with a first time pass and then complete line training.
Stop blaming other people for your own problems. The dedicated youngsters who aspire to be airline pilots should be applauded, not put down. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Stop blaming other people for your own problems. The dedicated youngsters who aspire to be airline pilots should be applauded, not put down. You should be ashamed of yourself.
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"If you want to have a prestigious, well paid and respected carreer then go on X-factor or get sillicone implants."
Fantastic Sea skimmer! The funniest yet most unfortunately true thing that I have read for a long time
Fantastic Sea skimmer! The funniest yet most unfortunately true thing that I have read for a long time
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There are several aspects which contribute to worsening of our T&Cs. I`ll name a few; possibly too many airlines (not aircraft) competing for the flying public as to barely make somewhat of a profit; an abundance of young, aspiring pilots with a major lack of experience willing to pay good money to fly commercially; an almost complete automation of modern-day aircraft, reducing pilots to systems operators.
Money means everything in aviation. Ask anybody! But which way the cashflow is heading is another aspect. You an buy many things; a uniform, your lunch, charts, a typerating, commercial flight hours, etc etc. But there is one thing that cannot be bought, and that is experience
. You can also ask yourself why fewer airlines consider a high experience level (flying) not to be much of an asset anymore, rather than paying to get in the front door
. But it seems times are changing again, perhaps for the better. The accidents and incidents in the US has brought attention to a few things which have been lacking the last 5-10 years. And to top it off, the Hudson River landing clearly shows how experience is a benefit, and why experienced pilots should be compensated accordingly.
To all up-and-comers; first thing is to get some experience. Do some instructing, air taxi, freight hauling at night, whatever it takes really, as long as you don`t cop out and buy yourself a job (yes, I know a lot of flight schools more than encourage you to do so). Think long term investment in your own well-being and porfessional career. And don`t forget to enjoy yourself when taking that road
Money means everything in aviation. Ask anybody! But which way the cashflow is heading is another aspect. You an buy many things; a uniform, your lunch, charts, a typerating, commercial flight hours, etc etc. But there is one thing that cannot be bought, and that is experience
. You can also ask yourself why fewer airlines consider a high experience level (flying) not to be much of an asset anymore, rather than paying to get in the front door. But it seems times are changing again, perhaps for the better. The accidents and incidents in the US has brought attention to a few things which have been lacking the last 5-10 years. And to top it off, the Hudson River landing clearly shows how experience is a benefit, and why experienced pilots should be compensated accordingly.To all up-and-comers; first thing is to get some experience. Do some instructing, air taxi, freight hauling at night, whatever it takes really, as long as you don`t cop out and buy yourself a job (yes, I know a lot of flight schools more than encourage you to do so). Think long term investment in your own well-being and porfessional career. And don`t forget to enjoy yourself when taking that road
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superdimona
[QUOTE]Please tell me how the ATPLs, which are certainly tricky, go into the same depth as a 4 year fulltime university program./QUOTE]
Hmmmm. Good question.
Lets take the average degree programme which takes three years. In that time each year your "in college" for 7-8 months as you get 4-5 months holiday so lets consider that at 24 months.
Within that time you are not in lectures all day every day but im not going to remove that from the equation so we'll keep that at 24 months.
The average intergrated course lasts some 14-16 months with only about 3-4 weeks time off within that so lets average it 15 months which is some 9 months behind your 24 months.
Then you have to factor in the two years it takes to attain/unfreeze your ATPL with 1500hrs of flying and you are still learning. Don't forget within those two years you still face a career ending two medicals, four simulator checks, two line checks, SEP's and one LST.
Ok so within those 24 months you may have around 3 months holidays so we'll call that 21 months.
Now by my estimation thats 36 months of training and experience and more exams and tests that you can shake a stick at.
You as an engineer concentrate on one thing....engineering in what ever form it might take.
As a pilot we study a variety of subjects that leads to a whole ranging from the arts like law to the sciences including electrical mechanical and hydraulic engineering let alone psycological and physialogical matters like CRM etc etc etc. As one whit put it a pilot is a jack of all trades master of one
So is a fully issued ATPL the equivalent of a degree....who's to say. Certainly the lecturers at my flying college with engineering (electrical and aeronautical) degrees thought so.
Personally i think the Spanish have it just about right.
Don't get me wrong im not trying to degrade your career but i certainly don't think you have a FULL understanding of what it takes to get an ATPL issued. There is noting ostensibly difficult about the ATPL's but just an awful lot of stuff to learn.....i ended up with 14 full foolscap folders full of stuff to know.
As for the original subject i still think this career has the cachet from the responses i get when people ask us what i do for a living.
[QUOTE]Please tell me how the ATPLs, which are certainly tricky, go into the same depth as a 4 year fulltime university program./QUOTE]
Hmmmm. Good question.
Lets take the average degree programme which takes three years. In that time each year your "in college" for 7-8 months as you get 4-5 months holiday so lets consider that at 24 months.
Within that time you are not in lectures all day every day but im not going to remove that from the equation so we'll keep that at 24 months.
The average intergrated course lasts some 14-16 months with only about 3-4 weeks time off within that so lets average it 15 months which is some 9 months behind your 24 months.
Then you have to factor in the two years it takes to attain/unfreeze your ATPL with 1500hrs of flying and you are still learning. Don't forget within those two years you still face a career ending two medicals, four simulator checks, two line checks, SEP's and one LST.
Ok so within those 24 months you may have around 3 months holidays so we'll call that 21 months.
Now by my estimation thats 36 months of training and experience and more exams and tests that you can shake a stick at.
You as an engineer concentrate on one thing....engineering in what ever form it might take.
As a pilot we study a variety of subjects that leads to a whole ranging from the arts like law to the sciences including electrical mechanical and hydraulic engineering let alone psycological and physialogical matters like CRM etc etc etc. As one whit put it a pilot is a jack of all trades master of one
So is a fully issued ATPL the equivalent of a degree....who's to say. Certainly the lecturers at my flying college with engineering (electrical and aeronautical) degrees thought so.
Personally i think the Spanish have it just about right.
Don't get me wrong im not trying to degrade your career but i certainly don't think you have a FULL understanding of what it takes to get an ATPL issued. There is noting ostensibly difficult about the ATPL's but just an awful lot of stuff to learn.....i ended up with 14 full foolscap folders full of stuff to know.
As for the original subject i still think this career has the cachet from the responses i get when people ask us what i do for a living.
Last edited by gone till november; 8th Jan 2010 at 13:52.
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Hi Gone,
Please don't get me wrong, I'm NOT saying that an aviation career takes less effort a college degree. I realise it's a hell of a lot of work to make it in this game. On the other hand I know of a few university courses that have the local nickname "Bachelor of Attendance" - because all you seem to need to do to get one is show up.
I was responding to the statement
An engineering degree is four years. Yes, you are not in lectures all day, however there are tutorials and labs to attend as well as various projects to complete. Naturally students have to study the theory as well (I don't know a single engineering student who honestly never studied). I don't see how anyone could squash 4 years worth of subjects into 2 years.
Medicals, simulator checks, and flight training qualify you to be a pilot - they have nothing whatsoever to do with being an engineer. If I spend 10 years as a carpenter, it won't help me be a good baker.
I think the vast majority of engineering programs make students 'branch out' rather then spend 100% of their time on the one specific area. Personally I'd guess I spent perhaps 35% of the time on my core major (electronics). The rest of the time got taken up with subjects on things like mathematics, project management, professional practice / legal issues, sustainability, physics, etc etc.
I never said it wasn't the equivalent of a degree - just that it certainly isn't the equivalent of an engineering degree. For instance I can't turn up to an airline and say "I'd like to apply for the left hand seat please, I'm only a 300 hour PPL, but I do have an engineering degree" - I'd get laughed out of the place.
I don't have a perfect idea of what's involved in an ATPL - only what I've read briefly here, and conversations I've had whilst flying privately.
I just went to my bookshelf and counted 21 textbooks from my university days. Earlier today I saw an advertisement on this site saying "0-ATPL in one year".
Making it as a professional pilot is a fantastic achievement. However I think anyone who things the academic side is comparable to a science/legal/engineering program is kidding themselves.
Please don't get me wrong, I'm NOT saying that an aviation career takes less effort a college degree. I realise it's a hell of a lot of work to make it in this game. On the other hand I know of a few university courses that have the local nickname "Bachelor of Attendance" - because all you seem to need to do to get one is show up.
I was responding to the statement
In Spain, pilots with 1500h (unfrozen ATPL) are considered Engineers with a University Degree. This is our aim.
Lets take the average degree programme which takes three years. In that time each year your "in college" for 7-8 months as you get 4-5 months holiday so lets consider that at 24 months.
Within that time you are not in lectures all day every day but im not going to remove that from the equation so we'll keep that at 24 months.
Within that time you are not in lectures all day every day but im not going to remove that from the equation so we'll keep that at 24 months.
Medicals, simulator checks, and flight training qualify you to be a pilot - they have nothing whatsoever to do with being an engineer. If I spend 10 years as a carpenter, it won't help me be a good baker.
You as an engineer concentrate on one thing....engineering in what ever form it might take.
As a pilot we study a variety of subjects that leads to a whole ranging from the arts like law to the sciences including electrical mechanical and hydraulic engineering let alone psycological and physialogical matters like CRM etc etc etc. As one whit put it a pilot is a jack of all trades master of one
As a pilot we study a variety of subjects that leads to a whole ranging from the arts like law to the sciences including electrical mechanical and hydraulic engineering let alone psycological and physialogical matters like CRM etc etc etc. As one whit put it a pilot is a jack of all trades master of one
So is a fully issued ATPL the equivalent of a degree....who's to say. Certainly the lecturers at my flying college with engineering (electrical and aeronautical) degrees thought so.
Don't get me wrong im not trying to degrade your career but i certainly don't think you have a FULL understanding of what it takes to get an ATPL issued. There is noting ostensibly difficult about the ATPL's but just an awful lot of stuff to learn.....i ended up with 14 full foolscap folders full of stuff to know.
I just went to my bookshelf and counted 21 textbooks from my university days. Earlier today I saw an advertisement on this site saying "0-ATPL in one year".
Making it as a professional pilot is a fantastic achievement. However I think anyone who things the academic side is comparable to a science/legal/engineering program is kidding themselves.
A bit self-referential
OK, a non-pilot and no flight sim either. I think you do have a prestigious job and furthermore you have the benefit of doing what I imagine you always dreamt of doing. There are an awful lot of worse jobs out there you know. Are you really so depressed about things and if so, with reason ? (PS one Albert Einstein ended up with a boring teaching job and wasn't rich either).
Last edited by Mr Optimistic; 8th Jan 2010 at 16:04. Reason: learnt how to spell prestigous/presttigious
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Degree vs ATPL
I think having both an ATPL and a degree in Aeronautical engineering I feel somewhat compelled to reply.
Aviation will not return to the "old days" for the forseeable future, why would it, its a simple case of supply and demand. Thats not say however, that we shouldnt strive do do our jobs as professionally as possible and you will be rewarded at what the market deems is a fair rate. Should you happen upon some unique skill set, or have a lucky break maybe you will earn more. However, anyone who started this career with the sole idea of achieving some "status" or making obscene amounts of money must have been misinformed.
With regards to the relative complexities of ATPL vs Degree, they arent the same. To try and compare the 2 is pointless, neither are easy and both require a considerable amount of work. It is only fair to say that they both demonstrate a similar level of learning.
Aviation will not return to the "old days" for the forseeable future, why would it, its a simple case of supply and demand. Thats not say however, that we shouldnt strive do do our jobs as professionally as possible and you will be rewarded at what the market deems is a fair rate. Should you happen upon some unique skill set, or have a lucky break maybe you will earn more. However, anyone who started this career with the sole idea of achieving some "status" or making obscene amounts of money must have been misinformed.
With regards to the relative complexities of ATPL vs Degree, they arent the same. To try and compare the 2 is pointless, neither are easy and both require a considerable amount of work. It is only fair to say that they both demonstrate a similar level of learning.