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easyJet/CTC Cadet Pilot Slavery Contract

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easyJet/CTC Cadet Pilot Slavery Contract

Old 31st Jan 2010, 19:01
  #321 (permalink)  
 
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ex dessert,jw411
thank you for a free english lesson
i'm not advertising anything, it's a quote from an email i got this morning from j.curd, thought i'll share it on this thread...clearly bad idea
m
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Old 31st Jan 2010, 19:09
  #322 (permalink)  
 
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dessert:

Pudding, gateaux, ice cream etc. etc.

desert:

Sahara, Ghobi, Rub al Khali etc. etc.

You simply cannot beat getting it right to begin with.
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Old 31st Jan 2010, 19:29
  #323 (permalink)  
VdV
 
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JW and ex desert, why dont you calm down. Youre on a forum, nobody gives a f*ck about spelling.
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Old 31st Jan 2010, 19:39
  #324 (permalink)  
 
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There are frightening terms that apply to these people.

Insolvency, broke.

When your have more liabilities than you have assets, you are a person with an insolvent balance sheet. In other terms, you' re broke.

Banks didn' t lend you money because you' re smart and you' re worth investing in, but because your parents have assets to match your debt.

It' s not that surprising to see that the same guys who decided to go broke for a pilot' s license, are now willing to work for free and thereby take jobs away. Stupid people never learn.

Those who didn' t go this way, shouldn' t envy them.
It' s like having a friend who brags about himself driving very fast. He will not achieve much with it, only that eventually he may die in a car crash.




And eventually, this system of schemes will lead to their own failure.

Pay-to-fly reduces jobs and there will be even more jobless pilots on the market. When pay-to-fly' s get kicked out, they won' t find jobs and they will be even more broke than they were before.

Then follows liquidation:
The banks will come to liquidate the family assets, foreclose their homes.
After a huge round of liquidations, banks will refuse to lend any further for anything related to flight training and broke pilots will be pulled out of the market by their angry families.
Broke pilots will live in shame ever after.

On the bright side, after that the market will open up again to the non-broke pilots. The non-brokes will survive to get a job.

Let them go broke.

Therefore, if you have more than a bean in your skull and consequently you are not considering going broke with CTC or OAA, disregard the following message:

Now is the best time to start your flight training, right before the economy picks up again!! Start now!! It' s now or never! Later is too late, now' s the best moment! Jump the line!
2 years from now, it will be a totally different picture, and if you start now you' re going to be among the first to be hired.

Last edited by fly_antonov; 31st Jan 2010 at 19:54.
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Old 31st Jan 2010, 19:40
  #325 (permalink)  
 
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To all who have castigated mac for the spelling please read his post, it is a quote, I presume he has done a C & P on it and retained the original spelling thereby underlining the lack of thought that has gone into the email he was sent. He did finish off with his own question on it.

Perhaps the pedants should spend some more time reading before being so smart Aleccy (?) pedantic.
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Old 31st Jan 2010, 19:42
  #326 (permalink)  
 
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Angry A break in The Thread

JW411/MAC72
Perhaps we have created a light-hearted interlude in what remains a serious and undesirable situation that still needs to be addressed by The Industry and continued relevant posts.
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Old 31st Jan 2010, 19:45
  #327 (permalink)  
 
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Indeed; I certainly hope so.
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Old 31st Jan 2010, 20:38
  #328 (permalink)  
 
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Banks didn' t lend you money because you' re smart and you' re worth investing in, but because your parents have assets to match your debt.
The banks will come to liquidate the family assets, foreclose their homes.
The vast majority of CTC cadets affected by the latest contract offerings - who a)are not 'pay-to-fly' pilots in the same way as the ATP/Fly320 people talked about in the last few posts, and b)are the people at the centre of the original subject of this thread - do not have secured funding.

The debts are in their names, as an unsecured bank loan. Nothing to do with their parents property or assets. The banks - specifically in the case of CTC, HSBC - offered the funding on an unsecured basis. The banks are in no position whatsoever to start liquidating families' assets.

The same does not apply to later cadets, who have started the course in more recent times after the unsecured funding dried up. But while fly_antonov's point stands when considering the wider job-hunting, low-houred, type-rated but only 200hrs on light a/c community, this does not apply to those emerging from the CTC Wings hold pool right now. For some of them, bankruptcy - without costing their families their homes - is an option. And, in some cases, the only one.
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Old 31st Jan 2010, 21:08
  #329 (permalink)  
 
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Loan security is simply the leverage the bank can/will use to get the parents to make Rupert's loan payments when he can't. No security, no lever in the bank's hand. Since CTC cadets who started the Wings programme two years or so ago were offered unsecured loans, they could be forced into bankruptcy by the PTF scheme, while those with secured loans might receive parental help. The bank, and maybe CTC too, will be screwed if the pay is too low, as they could force a lot of these graduates into bankruptcy. Likewise, if the pay is enough, they can help keep them out of bankruptcy. I'd say the CTC graduates have better negotiation leverage than the OAA ones do then, since they have unsecured loans and the OAA lot have secured ones. It's a good thing they noticed that ARL was offering them less than Parc was offering their OAA counterparts and that they used the lever to negotiate.

I wonder where the CTC chaps will get the money for the PTF scheme though? I'm sure HSBC have figured out that they now have leverage too. They could offer another loan to cover PTF in exchange for the whole lot of debt being secured going forward. So where does a CTC-to-EZ PTFer get the funds needed? Have they built any financing/bespoke loans into the scheme or is it all down to the depth of Rupert's pocket or the bank of Mum and Dad's?

The type of leverage I mean here by the way, is the kind that one uses to move an obstacle from one's path, not debt, which is also called leverage.
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Old 31st Jan 2010, 21:11
  #330 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting point, quite poor judgement by the banks.

In my opinion, in the end the consequences are the same.

In one, you bankrupt yourself and the bank comes and takes away everything that belongs to you.
If that doesn' t cover it all and since you' re still alive, they can lay their hands on part of your (future) income when you have one, or any assets, from your shoes to any heritage, for as long as you owe them money.

In the other, your family loses the home or other assets, a bit more dramatic.

The former is trickier for the banks but either way, you don' t just get away with it.

Add legal expenses!


Bank lending for flight training will come to an end very soon.
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Old 31st Jan 2010, 21:22
  #331 (permalink)  
 
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Fly Antonov,

Actually, there are plenty of families who can simply make Rupert's payments until he's on his own feet. They don't lose much in the way of assets, except for some discretionary income or savings while they take over payments. I'll bet there is a lot of this going on already without the bank's knowledge.

The banks will keep lending, but they have already stopped doing it without security. They will be stricter about how much they lend and who they loan it to, but lending is what they do and they will keep at it.
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Old 31st Jan 2010, 23:15
  #332 (permalink)  
 
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Good point.

The richies are going to get away with it, the others will go broke.
Story of human life.

Banks will lend for as long as there is a lucrative market.
That market ceased to exist 2 years ago now and what has been a safe and lucrative business has become very risky and time-consuming.

I got out of flight training (thank god, modular) at the right time and way before the point of no return, without any loans or debt. I' m enjoying my PPL every now and then and am looking at a job in flight ops.

I will be watching the upcoming bloodbath from the sidelines
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Old 1st Feb 2010, 01:14
  #333 (permalink)  
 
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Close but not quite.

A small percentage will be able to look to their parents for financial help. They'll obviously be bailed out and in some probable comfort no doubt.
Others will work their off to avoid financial proceedings and they'll just about get away with it.
Others, despite their best efforts, will have to seek the protection of IVAs or bankruptcy.

fly_antonov - it's quite something to note your apparent enjoyment of an 'upcoming bloodbath'. I always thought human nature reverted to sympathy for those less fortunate.....
Don't take my opinion to heart I know there are a substantial number of people who favour the 'serves them right' mindset.

Adios - I'm also wondering where people are finding the money for the easyJet placement. It seems they are though with full TR courses. I can't say I blame them for accepting the deal if they have nothing else to go back to. What else for them to do?

Last edited by djfingerscrossed; 1st Feb 2010 at 01:15. Reason: Grammar
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Old 1st Feb 2010, 08:09
  #334 (permalink)  
 
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They chose to walk that path while they had the chance to take the necessary measures (like I and many others did). Now they should bear the consequences.
Let' s not forget that it' s the fault of those self-centered pilots that the industry has become what it is.

No sympathy for them at all.

I do feel sorry for the BD pilots who are made redundant for this mess, and for frozen ATPLs who did everything the right way and have little to no debt.
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Old 1st Feb 2010, 08:53
  #335 (permalink)  
 
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fly_antonov. The CTC cadets who you refer to started training years ago before the industry and the economy nose dived. ITS NOT THEIR FAULT!!!! Why should they bear the consequences? The ones starting now however I have less/no sympathy for.

You blame these cadets for taking out loans and now taking on poor contract jobs potentially lowering terms and conditions through the industry. They have little choice as they are going to go bankrupt if they don't. They are doing all they can to pay the bills. The airlines know this and are taking full advantage. This is not a situation of their choosing. What other option do they have? To go bankrupt and just sit around on benefits?

Well I note that is a option similar to one you have taken. You are stocking up savings as you get over 900 Euros a month from benefits!!! This after a year long state sponsored course. You might go to uni soon and get a degree on benefits. All paid for by the tax payer!!!

I am not having a go but why is it ok for you to take money from a tax payer but its not ok for these cadets to threaten current pilots T&C's. Who does it make self centered?

Neither of you chose to be in the situations you are in. Despite your good results and hard work on your course you can't get on a course to get an aircraft mechanics license.
Well despite these cadets good results and hard work they are being offered very poorly paid jobs.

A lot of what you say is very true and insightful but please show a bit of sympathy for these CTC cadets. There is a difference between the CTC situation, OAA and the other pay-to-fly courses. This situation is not their fault!
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Old 1st Feb 2010, 09:20
  #336 (permalink)  
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Fly antonov = fail
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Old 1st Feb 2010, 09:25
  #337 (permalink)  
 
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Surely the most pragmatic approach is to accept that both sides have to share blame. Extended bouts of hot air and finger pointing isn't going to help or change anything.

The situation the CTC cadets are in is the very definition of get-there-itis. The more they spend, the harder it is to walk away. A rational decision becomes an irrational, destinctive, one. The big players involved know this and are exploiting it.

In the end, entering a course such as this is a gamble. It was a gamble back then and it's a gamble now. If you've saved up your 100k or whatever, you've taken a big gamble with your own money. If you borrowed it, you've taken a big gamble with someone else's money. To try and pretend otherwise is daft. Sometimes the gamble pays off, sometimes it doesn't. That's why it's a gamble.

It's a big bad world out there and naive young people have always been exploited (and always will be).
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Old 1st Feb 2010, 09:59
  #338 (permalink)  
 
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"ITS NOT THEIR FAULT!!!! Why should they bear the consequences?"

I disagree. They should of understood the risks they were taking when they signed up. If they didn't then they didn't do their homework correctly. Markets go bull and markets go bear.
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Old 1st Feb 2010, 10:34
  #339 (permalink)  
 
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But surely those who are now ready to apply for a "job" with their CTC training behind them would have started 1.5-2 years ago?
Not so.

Some people who are only now emerging from the hold pool and have just received their first contract offer, started training in July/August 2007. Two and a half years ago.

I agree with you re. the ones who have signed up more recently.
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Old 1st Feb 2010, 13:57
  #340 (permalink)  
 
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How easy it is to be at the top looking down from an ivory tower dirinking posh wine and wishing the poor people would move as they are spoiling your view. As I read comments from the fly_antonov end of the scale I wonder how they ever became pilots. So many people here despise those pilots whose parents lent them the money yet would only congratulate those who became surgeons following a very expensive public school education. I have been a parent for many years and have had no hesitation in doing everything I have to get my kids a good education. Mercifully that has not extended to pay for flying training, but had that been the right move I would have done so (money permitting!). The bottom line is parents look after their children as if they don't then no one else will. Therefore a pro-active devoted parent gives his children more of a start in life than a single, cash-strapped parent who can barely keep their head above water. It is utterly 'unfair', but it is nonetheless what has happened since the dawn of time. You can hardly blame a parent for wanting the best for their child - that is one of the key things we are on this earth to do.

So do we now deny places in airlines to anyone who went to public school? Or do we check to see if some parents paid off too much student debt? You cannot really blame people for wanting to be pilots - we all did at one stage. I am personally very wary of this 'holier than though' attitude. Mercifully, within easyJet there is a more gracious view prevailing and I trust that there are still some others out there who can see the hideous plight of these new pilots. There again, I suppose fly_antonov was born in an orphanage, taught himself to read and write, sold plastic bottles to passers by to fund his university education and fought his way to the top of his profession with no help from anyone else. After that sponsors queued to be priveleged to fund his flying training due to his exceptional apptitude. If I only I had been so talented myself then it would all have been so easy.
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