Easy worse than Ryanair
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Debt levels
@ DirectDIKAS
Some very good and valid points you made regarding levels of debt among pilots. It's ironic that this still continues, despite the current economic problems of excessive debt.
Debt seems to be a huge Ponzi/Pyramid scheme, where you constantly have to borrow more and more in order to stay ahead of the power curve. It's no wonder that many low-cost airlines have aggressively jumped onto this band wagon in order to make some cash out it's employees. I guess the money they make is not in direct terms (i.e. from the type rating itself) but more indirectly where it creates a culture of obedience (who's gonna complain about his employer if you need next month's salary to pay off your debt?) and selfishness. In other words: the perfect breeding ground for a divide and conquer strategy.
As I've repeatedly pointed out in the past, this 'paying for a job' and subsequent degradation of T&C's needs to get fought from within (i.e. by employees and unions with a backbone) during the good years, but alas, back then everybody thought I was just a nuisance and preferred to be fat, dumb and happy with debt.
Ironic and sad that in an industry where people get paid to "think ahead," people could not see this one coming and that many still don't see where this is going...
Money is debt and debt is the modern version of slavery.
If you have an hour to kill on an airport standby, then have a look at these videos:
YouTube - Money As Debt (1 of 5)
YouTube - Money As Debt (2 of 5)
YouTube - Money As Debt (3 of 5)
YouTube - Money As Debt (4 of 5)
YouTube - Money As Debt (5 of 5)
Some very good and valid points you made regarding levels of debt among pilots. It's ironic that this still continues, despite the current economic problems of excessive debt.
Debt seems to be a huge Ponzi/Pyramid scheme, where you constantly have to borrow more and more in order to stay ahead of the power curve. It's no wonder that many low-cost airlines have aggressively jumped onto this band wagon in order to make some cash out it's employees. I guess the money they make is not in direct terms (i.e. from the type rating itself) but more indirectly where it creates a culture of obedience (who's gonna complain about his employer if you need next month's salary to pay off your debt?) and selfishness. In other words: the perfect breeding ground for a divide and conquer strategy.
As I've repeatedly pointed out in the past, this 'paying for a job' and subsequent degradation of T&C's needs to get fought from within (i.e. by employees and unions with a backbone) during the good years, but alas, back then everybody thought I was just a nuisance and preferred to be fat, dumb and happy with debt.
Ironic and sad that in an industry where people get paid to "think ahead," people could not see this one coming and that many still don't see where this is going...
Money is debt and debt is the modern version of slavery.
If you have an hour to kill on an airport standby, then have a look at these videos:
YouTube - Money As Debt (1 of 5)
YouTube - Money As Debt (2 of 5)
YouTube - Money As Debt (3 of 5)
YouTube - Money As Debt (4 of 5)
YouTube - Money As Debt (5 of 5)
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....reclaimed the costs of training, accommodation etc.... dunno about other countries but in the UK I'd say you'll be claiming back sweet F.A. I stand to be corrected though.
Anybody signing up for that level of debt these days needs to have a serious word with themselves.
Anybody signing up for that level of debt these days needs to have a serious word with themselves.
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Not sure I agree about fatigue resulting from flying with low-houred F/Os - they are keen and well trained, SOPs and the line training weed out the weak. At FR I never feel the need to worry about the competence of the guy next to me. 4 off is enough to recover from the most demanding week's work. Can't comment on the EZ temp pilots' currency or abilities.
FR vacilate between offering perm and temp contracts depending on this month's cunning plan. The value on offer is always downwards though.
I am concerned that the FR growth model is funded by every supplier to FR, subsidising its mad rush to a European monopoly position. Which other business expects to keep making consistant profits while expanding like crazy?
FR aims to be the only business in the chain to make a profit.
Remember the furore when UK started charging £10 airport pax tax.
FR championed the pax right not to be taxed. However, it was happy to charge £5 each way for using a debit card, which cost itself 40p for the transaction. FR doesn't care that £10 is charged, but it does care who gets it!
Expansion is an investment in the future, normally with a return in the future. In Ryanair's case it wants a return now!
This is akin to wanting your cake and also to eat it.
At some point FR will be effectively a monopoly on many routes or even whole regions, imagine suppliers bargaining position then?
Where Fr go, others follow, they have no real choice in the matter.
Stavros at EZ wants to retake control and make efficiency savings so as to get some dividends to fund his other entirely loss-making ventures.
Wee Willy Walsh wants to square up to crew and break them asap. If he doesn't the brand may be lost altogether.
I am waiting to see if Fr returns its much reduced cash pile to shareholders if it can't get the BOGOF deal at Boeing. What will the grand plan be then? FR is into a different ball game, no longer an expansionary model. Maybe it will even reduce in size as it dumps loss making routes.
Will it have any future need of the hordes of the Zombie Army?
As the Chinese proverb goes - We live in interesting times
FR vacilate between offering perm and temp contracts depending on this month's cunning plan. The value on offer is always downwards though.
I am concerned that the FR growth model is funded by every supplier to FR, subsidising its mad rush to a European monopoly position. Which other business expects to keep making consistant profits while expanding like crazy?
FR aims to be the only business in the chain to make a profit.
Remember the furore when UK started charging £10 airport pax tax.
FR championed the pax right not to be taxed. However, it was happy to charge £5 each way for using a debit card, which cost itself 40p for the transaction. FR doesn't care that £10 is charged, but it does care who gets it!
Expansion is an investment in the future, normally with a return in the future. In Ryanair's case it wants a return now!
This is akin to wanting your cake and also to eat it.
At some point FR will be effectively a monopoly on many routes or even whole regions, imagine suppliers bargaining position then?
Where Fr go, others follow, they have no real choice in the matter.
Stavros at EZ wants to retake control and make efficiency savings so as to get some dividends to fund his other entirely loss-making ventures.
Wee Willy Walsh wants to square up to crew and break them asap. If he doesn't the brand may be lost altogether.
I am waiting to see if Fr returns its much reduced cash pile to shareholders if it can't get the BOGOF deal at Boeing. What will the grand plan be then? FR is into a different ball game, no longer an expansionary model. Maybe it will even reduce in size as it dumps loss making routes.
Will it have any future need of the hordes of the Zombie Army?
As the Chinese proverb goes - We live in interesting times
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As a Brookfielder on the new contract you are not paying tax through the UK. You will be paid in euro's and taxed in Ireland. You will be allowed to reclaim your training costs.
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They will not pay any tax until they have reclaimed all of the costs of training, accomodation etc.
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Hmmm, interesting. So if what you're saying is correct, the Irish State is effectively paying for the training of Ryanair pilots - at a time when they're imposing massive tax hikes on the rest of the population. What a crazy world we live in.
Aren't state subsidies a no-no under EU legislation?
Aren't state subsidies a no-no under EU legislation?
what you say is true, then there is effectively a 30% government subsidy for training FR pilots.
Please explain to me why they shouldn't be: on a legal or moral basis, because I can't see why pilots who fly for Ryanair should be treated any differently to other pilots.
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Pilots who are self-employed, or who form a company, are allowed to claim the legitimate costs of running their businesses. This includes training costs (including TR costs), travel to a base other than their normal place of work, overnight accommodation costs, uniform, etc. This is the same in any sector of the economy - I can't see what all the fuss is about.
bf
bf
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I dont know if this ATPL figure is the new standard, at the guts of 100k it seems a tad on the expensive side, I was surprised when the individual quoted such a high price. I thought he was going to say "100k all in, including the FR TR", but no that was another 33k-euros. It was indeed due to the bank of mum and dad, they must have a lot of faith!!
eye watering debt or what
DDA
eye watering debt or what
DDA
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BALLSOUT, the problem is though if they dont fly they dont get paid and with FR being soo over staffed, loads of F/O's are getting more standbys than flying.
Its another earner for FR, the cadet during training and for a period on the line is effectively paying their own salary as they payed such a humongous fee in the first place. Once they properly cost FR in terms of a salary, bring on the standbys and hello another cadet and so the cycle continues.
DDA
Its another earner for FR, the cadet during training and for a period on the line is effectively paying their own salary as they payed such a humongous fee in the first place. Once they properly cost FR in terms of a salary, bring on the standbys and hello another cadet and so the cycle continues.
DDA
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DDA
Good point, however I am earning more money now than during line training and since going over the 500hour pay increase, 4-5k top line is pretty average.
Good point, however I am earning more money now than during line training and since going over the 500hour pay increase, 4-5k top line is pretty average.
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I have resisted taking part in this largely fruitless debate so far, but will add a few points that may be of interest to some. The very title of this thread is unhelpful as it pits pilot against pilot rather than pilot against bonus-hunting, buffoon management - the latter being present in abundance at both our companies. Not working for Ryanair, I will leave it for others to judge the state of their company - suffice to say it would be a dark day for virtually any airline pilot in a jet company if they were forced to seek employment there. Needs must, and I daresay there will shortly be a few BMI pilots forced to eat humble pie and take the leprechaun's shilling in the coming days.
Regarding easyJet, where I am in a far better position to make an accurate assessment, it is no secret that easyJet pilots are currently engaged in an increasingly difficult battle in order to settle numerous issues with our management, the most fractious being the issue of German contracts. Most of that conflict is completely unnecessary and stems from a view which says we are just lucky to have a job, and that any act of greed and stupidity shown by our management is justified in the current economic climate. Like all these things, compromise will be required on both sides, but the mantra 'crew costs are too high' should be weighed against the staggering ineptitude required to lose over £300 million pounds in the fuel hedging catastrophe. As you would imagine, no one has been disciplined or lost their job over that decision - quite the contrary in fact as big bonuses just keep coming. Nice work if you can get it. I am amused to find out that the previously-agreed loyalty bonuses are causing such distress and the fuel hedging disaster is not.
Despite this, however, we should be wary of welcoming old Stelios back like a long-lost friend. The only successful business venture that he has ever been involved with is easyJet - all the rest are a catalogue of disastrous failures. His current management team are infinitely more competent than he is, and are generally adopting the right strategy in terms of fleet expansion in the current climate. Stelios, in stark contrast, wants a 'dividend' for share holders - ie he wants to asset strip the company and remove substantial amounts of cash out the business for himself and his family. I am genuinely grateful to him for his past contributions to the company, but he is absolutely the wrong man to be in charge right now. Andy Harrison is, for the mostpart, still doing a good job and if he could just return to his original line of seeing sound business sense in looking after his employees, the world he runs would be a significantly better place.
My take on all the latest ups and downs is very straightforward - despite the clear failings of our management, we need to work together for the greater good. There are one or two people who need to leave easyJet at the earliest opportunity, but overall it is still a very good and safe place to be. BALPA are fighting a difficult battle with unreasonable people and require our total support. Nonetheless, a strike now would be a tragedy for us all and needs to be avoided, if at all possible. I am cautiously heartened by the recent communication from BALPA of 26th November which announced what is effectively a cooling-off period to provide room for 'fresh thinking'. I think that is good news, as it gives an opportunity for wise people to seek a way out of unnecesssary conflict while it is still possible. It would not be reasonable for the pilots to expect a total victory on all issues, but not should our management seek to behave like bulls in a china shop throughout their negotiations with us. Fascinatingly enough, I have come across diehard anti-BALPA pilots in the last few days who have laid down their antagonism (going back many years to Dan Air and beyone) and rejoined BALPA to show solidarity with their pilot colleagues. I trust our pilot managers will take note of how strong the feelings are among pilots. The extremely unhelpful comments from our managers about the negotiations with BALPA have been very counter-productive and only served to harden the pilots' mindset. A negotiated settlement is the way forward and I still believe, even at this late hour, that this is possible. For everyone's sake, I hope that is the case. In order to avoid easyJet becoming worse than Ryanair, we have a lot of work to do - I dare to believe that we are heading in the right direction.
Regarding easyJet, where I am in a far better position to make an accurate assessment, it is no secret that easyJet pilots are currently engaged in an increasingly difficult battle in order to settle numerous issues with our management, the most fractious being the issue of German contracts. Most of that conflict is completely unnecessary and stems from a view which says we are just lucky to have a job, and that any act of greed and stupidity shown by our management is justified in the current economic climate. Like all these things, compromise will be required on both sides, but the mantra 'crew costs are too high' should be weighed against the staggering ineptitude required to lose over £300 million pounds in the fuel hedging catastrophe. As you would imagine, no one has been disciplined or lost their job over that decision - quite the contrary in fact as big bonuses just keep coming. Nice work if you can get it. I am amused to find out that the previously-agreed loyalty bonuses are causing such distress and the fuel hedging disaster is not.
Despite this, however, we should be wary of welcoming old Stelios back like a long-lost friend. The only successful business venture that he has ever been involved with is easyJet - all the rest are a catalogue of disastrous failures. His current management team are infinitely more competent than he is, and are generally adopting the right strategy in terms of fleet expansion in the current climate. Stelios, in stark contrast, wants a 'dividend' for share holders - ie he wants to asset strip the company and remove substantial amounts of cash out the business for himself and his family. I am genuinely grateful to him for his past contributions to the company, but he is absolutely the wrong man to be in charge right now. Andy Harrison is, for the mostpart, still doing a good job and if he could just return to his original line of seeing sound business sense in looking after his employees, the world he runs would be a significantly better place.
My take on all the latest ups and downs is very straightforward - despite the clear failings of our management, we need to work together for the greater good. There are one or two people who need to leave easyJet at the earliest opportunity, but overall it is still a very good and safe place to be. BALPA are fighting a difficult battle with unreasonable people and require our total support. Nonetheless, a strike now would be a tragedy for us all and needs to be avoided, if at all possible. I am cautiously heartened by the recent communication from BALPA of 26th November which announced what is effectively a cooling-off period to provide room for 'fresh thinking'. I think that is good news, as it gives an opportunity for wise people to seek a way out of unnecesssary conflict while it is still possible. It would not be reasonable for the pilots to expect a total victory on all issues, but not should our management seek to behave like bulls in a china shop throughout their negotiations with us. Fascinatingly enough, I have come across diehard anti-BALPA pilots in the last few days who have laid down their antagonism (going back many years to Dan Air and beyone) and rejoined BALPA to show solidarity with their pilot colleagues. I trust our pilot managers will take note of how strong the feelings are among pilots. The extremely unhelpful comments from our managers about the negotiations with BALPA have been very counter-productive and only served to harden the pilots' mindset. A negotiated settlement is the way forward and I still believe, even at this late hour, that this is possible. For everyone's sake, I hope that is the case. In order to avoid easyJet becoming worse than Ryanair, we have a lot of work to do - I dare to believe that we are heading in the right direction.
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DDA, as zerotohero has pointed out,The average pay for an F/O at FR is 4-5000 euros a month just now. I am not aware of any F/O's who are doing more standby than flying. There are a few standby's but srill enough flying to earn a good wage. The situation with staff levels is steadily sorting it' self out now with promotions. Once the spring is here with another 55 airframes, I imagine there will be few standby's and the average F/O will be probably be on about 7000 euro a month.
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Balls out,
Dream on. 7000Euro a month for a Ryan FO?
I have mates in FR. One is a LTC. He gets about £6000 a month.
One is just completing Command Course. Dunno what he's on.
The other is a SFO with enough hours for Command. He has 5 days of flying in December.
So, I think you are having a laugh with 7000 Euro a month my old fruit.
Dream on. 7000Euro a month for a Ryan FO?
I have mates in FR. One is a LTC. He gets about £6000 a month.
One is just completing Command Course. Dunno what he's on.
The other is a SFO with enough hours for Command. He has 5 days of flying in December.
So, I think you are having a laugh with 7000 Euro a month my old fruit.
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I would say the average FO in FR earns 4000-4500 EURO GROSS in autumn and winter.
Thats about 60hrs per month on 75.50p/h.
Loads of stby.sometimes 3 in block of 5 on.
Spring and summer maybe 75hrs so 5600 EURO GROSS.
Per year 60000 euro gross. 43000 euro Take Home NET
Thats about 60hrs per month on 75.50p/h.
Loads of stby.sometimes 3 in block of 5 on.
Spring and summer maybe 75hrs so 5600 EURO GROSS.
Per year 60000 euro gross. 43000 euro Take Home NET
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Stanstead, Not only do I have mates in Ryanair, I work there too. Your mate that's an LTC will be employed on a Ryanair contract, we are talking Brookfield here. The rates for Brookfield are much higher. the month off has no bearing on anything, we all have time off. The figures to keep in mind are the hourly rate, and the max hours you can fly in 12 months.
Recently the F/O's have been flying less than 900 hours a year, but I think with all the new aircraft comming and lots of promotions, they will probably be flying 900 a year again soon.
Recently the F/O's have been flying less than 900 hours a year, but I think with all the new aircraft comming and lots of promotions, they will probably be flying 900 a year again soon.
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We can see that cutting costs is great (at the moment) for expanding RYR and EZ, but what was the opportunity cost of keeping their staff happy, gaining experience, allowing them to be more proficient at their work and have more time for the customers, building loyalty.
We are talking about low cost operators here are we not? When did you last see an easyJet or Ryanair driver say goodbye to their customers? Then again who wants to see Terry Tracksuit and Shiela Shellsuit disembark with their lovely offsprings? 
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NSF, whilst I normally respect your comments, and am aware of your knowledge of life inside easy I can't help thinking that the fact that those within easy on full time contracts believing that:
might contribute to the fact that there is a feeling that:
When you say 'all of us', do you mean those with the best T's & C's such as yourself? Or do you mean the poorly paid cadets and those on flexi contracts as well? I hope you take my point with the best intentions, and are not planning on becoming a future Rainboe.
overall it is still a very good and safe place to be
a strike now would be a tragedy for us all and needs to be avoided