Easy worse than Ryanair
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The LCCs have to manage costs to deliver the now universal cheap flight to the public.
Having cut sales and distribution costs by going over to web based sales and now check in, and minimised ground handling costs by using secondary airports who will often subsidise the operation they have to look at other ways of bringing down their expenses.
Fuel is the obvious big one but there still exists in the mind of many the " add half a tonne for the wife and kids" mentality: that doesn't help anyone. Fuel accounts for between 16% and 20% of the airline cost, flight crew around 14% and ground handling and airport fees around 14%.
Better, in my opinion, to make the savings on fuel and airport / handling charges than on flight crew: however, when MOL tries to push the airports into cutting their charges he is vilified on here.
Surely a 2% cut in airport fees and all of us working to minimise fuel burn is a much better solution than cadets at easyjet working for virtually nothing.
Having cut sales and distribution costs by going over to web based sales and now check in, and minimised ground handling costs by using secondary airports who will often subsidise the operation they have to look at other ways of bringing down their expenses.
Fuel is the obvious big one but there still exists in the mind of many the " add half a tonne for the wife and kids" mentality: that doesn't help anyone. Fuel accounts for between 16% and 20% of the airline cost, flight crew around 14% and ground handling and airport fees around 14%.
Better, in my opinion, to make the savings on fuel and airport / handling charges than on flight crew: however, when MOL tries to push the airports into cutting their charges he is vilified on here.
Surely a 2% cut in airport fees and all of us working to minimise fuel burn is a much better solution than cadets at easyjet working for virtually nothing.
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Widebody
I don't think it is off topic: if we can produce a collective solution that can be presented either via a union or company as a way of reducing costs without prejudicing the livelhoods and Ts and Cs of crew members your point is particularly valid.
I don't think it is off topic: if we can produce a collective solution that can be presented either via a union or company as a way of reducing costs without prejudicing the livelhoods and Ts and Cs of crew members your point is particularly valid.
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Via a union, Slim?
Have you taken leave of your senses? Since when have any of them demonstated a genuine interest in corporate health?
Pilots would do well to study the teachings of Edward de Bono more, and focus less on the short termism that brands us as the bunch of timid, self-interested nimbyists we all too often are.
Hope you're well, old boy!
Have you taken leave of your senses? Since when have any of them demonstated a genuine interest in corporate health?
Pilots would do well to study the teachings of Edward de Bono more, and focus less on the short termism that brands us as the bunch of timid, self-interested nimbyists we all too often are.
Hope you're well, old boy!
Last edited by Leo Hairy-Camel; 23rd Nov 2009 at 15:15.
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It gives the union the chance to prove it's mettle Leo 
Naturally I wouldn't hold out a soupcon of hope, but to be fair, which you and I indubitably are, we ought to let them have a crack at it to put the subscription money to use in the member's benefit, rather than lunches etc.
Naturally I wouldn't hold out a soupcon of hope, but to be fair, which you and I indubitably are, we ought to let them have a crack at it to put the subscription money to use in the member's benefit, rather than lunches etc.
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easyJet is worse than Ryanair nowadays.
Of course it depends on just how you compare it, I know.
It also depends on how easyet is comparing costs between the airlines; AH is using his numbers to make the employees within the orange (now totally squashed) to make them feel like not being effective enough. Thats BS.
Anyway, all this LCC thing has dived in a negative spiral. Wonder how much more it will take for these airlines to lose all pilots because they cant be botherd about this nonsen anymore, and just leave for a better and worthwhile life.
I certainly do.
Of course it depends on just how you compare it, I know.
It also depends on how easyet is comparing costs between the airlines; AH is using his numbers to make the employees within the orange (now totally squashed) to make them feel like not being effective enough. Thats BS.
Anyway, all this LCC thing has dived in a negative spiral. Wonder how much more it will take for these airlines to lose all pilots because they cant be botherd about this nonsen anymore, and just leave for a better and worthwhile life.
I certainly do.
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Supply and demand is the unstoppable force you refer to, not the "zombie army"
Until there is regulation from EASA et al the situation will not improve. I for one am seriously looking at exit strategies to depart this rotten industry
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Somebody sent me this,
A mouse looked through the crack in the wall To see the farmer and his wife open a package.
"What food might this contain?" The mouse wondered.
He was d eva stated to discover it was a mousetrap.
Retreating to the farmyard, the mouse proclaimed this warning :
"There is a mousetrap in the house! There is a mousetrap in the house!"
The chicken clucked and scratched, raised her head and said, "Mr. Mouse, I can tell this is a grave concern to you, But it is of no consequence to me. I cannot be bothered by it."
The mouse turned to the pig and told him,"There is a mousetrap in the house!
There is a mousetrap in the house!"
The pig sympathized, but said, "I am so very sorry, Mr.. Mouse, but there is nothing I can do about it but pray. Be assured you are in my prayers."
The mouse turned to the cow and said, "There is a mousetrap in the house!
There is a mousetrap in the house!"
The cow said, "Wow, Mr. Mouse. I'm sorry for you, But it's no skin off my nose."
So, the mouse returned to the house, head down and dejected, to face the farmer's mousetrap . . . Alone. . .
That very night a sound was heard throughout the house -- The sound Of a mousetrap catching its prey.
The farmer's wife rushed to see what was caught. In the darkness, she did not see it. It was a venomous snake Whose tail was caught in the trap.
The snake bit the farmer's wife. The farmer rushed her to the hospital.
When she returned home she still had a fever. Everyone knows you treat a fever With fresh chicken soup..
So the farmer took his hatchet to the farmyard for the soup's main ingredient:
But his wife's sickness continued. Friends and neighbours came to sit with her Around the clock. To feed them, The farmer butchered the pig.
But, alas, The farmer's wife did not get well...
She died.
So many people came for her funeral that the farmer had the cow slaughtered to provide enough meat for all of them For the funeral luncheon.
And the mouse looked upon it all from his crack in the wall With great sadness.
So, the next time you hear someone is facing a problem and you think it doesn't concern you,
remember ---
When one of us is threatened, we are all at risk. We are all involved in this journey called life.
We must keep an eye out for one another and make an extra effort to encourage one another.
- REMEMBER -
EACH OF US IS A VITAL THREAD
IN ANOTHER PERSON'S TAPESTRY.
OUR LIVES ARE WOVEN TOGETHER
FOR A REASON.
One of the best things to hold onto In this world is a FRIEND.
A mouse looked through the crack in the wall To see the farmer and his wife open a package.
"What food might this contain?" The mouse wondered.
He was d eva stated to discover it was a mousetrap.
Retreating to the farmyard, the mouse proclaimed this warning :
"There is a mousetrap in the house! There is a mousetrap in the house!"
The chicken clucked and scratched, raised her head and said, "Mr. Mouse, I can tell this is a grave concern to you, But it is of no consequence to me. I cannot be bothered by it."
The mouse turned to the pig and told him,"There is a mousetrap in the house!
There is a mousetrap in the house!"
The pig sympathized, but said, "I am so very sorry, Mr.. Mouse, but there is nothing I can do about it but pray. Be assured you are in my prayers."
The mouse turned to the cow and said, "There is a mousetrap in the house!
There is a mousetrap in the house!"
The cow said, "Wow, Mr. Mouse. I'm sorry for you, But it's no skin off my nose."
So, the mouse returned to the house, head down and dejected, to face the farmer's mousetrap . . . Alone. . .
That very night a sound was heard throughout the house -- The sound Of a mousetrap catching its prey.
The farmer's wife rushed to see what was caught. In the darkness, she did not see it. It was a venomous snake Whose tail was caught in the trap.
The snake bit the farmer's wife. The farmer rushed her to the hospital.
When she returned home she still had a fever. Everyone knows you treat a fever With fresh chicken soup..
So the farmer took his hatchet to the farmyard for the soup's main ingredient:
But his wife's sickness continued. Friends and neighbours came to sit with her Around the clock. To feed them, The farmer butchered the pig.
But, alas, The farmer's wife did not get well...
She died.
So many people came for her funeral that the farmer had the cow slaughtered to provide enough meat for all of them For the funeral luncheon.
And the mouse looked upon it all from his crack in the wall With great sadness.
So, the next time you hear someone is facing a problem and you think it doesn't concern you,
remember ---
When one of us is threatened, we are all at risk. We are all involved in this journey called life.
We must keep an eye out for one another and make an extra effort to encourage one another.
- REMEMBER -
EACH OF US IS A VITAL THREAD
IN ANOTHER PERSON'S TAPESTRY.
OUR LIVES ARE WOVEN TOGETHER
FOR A REASON.
One of the best things to hold onto In this world is a FRIEND.
Lovely story; but just to give it the happy ending, was the mouse in the BA final salary scheme and, if so, with a £3 billion debt in the pension fund, was his widow still guaranteed to get a good payout?
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The way things have gone in the industry in terms of continually recruiting Cheap labour over experienced guys is complete madness and I agree with all what has been said above. But it is only going to get worse as more management cotton on to the O'leary methods.
So what can we do about it and tackle the problem as individuals?
I read the BALPA Log article but I am not convinced that BALPA is strong enough or willing to save the day.
Further more I do not feel that Joe public are fully aware of what is really going on in the industry. Everybody who I tell, are shocked, and I do wander if they would feel slightly differently when they are getting on to the aircaft with this knowledge. (I am not saying cadets are unsafe, but I do feel the impact of fatigue of captains continually flying with inexperience FO's may have some affect on flight safety, please correct me if I'm wrong those captains who do not feel this way I will be more than happy to stand corrected).
I was dissappointed that the Panarama program about FR did not Highlight in detail the way pilots and crew are treated. Only to finish with a numpty saying he wants to fly for FR
. Im sure O'leary loved that.
So in the long term how will it end up
a) all the decent people leaving the industry and let the flow of Cheap labour fly for nothing.
b) Eventually all the pilots will be fed up with the lowered T&C's and then strike when things are really bad.
I don't know but currently I can't see any positive moves by anyone to stop the situation getting worse.
mint
So what can we do about it and tackle the problem as individuals?
I read the BALPA Log article but I am not convinced that BALPA is strong enough or willing to save the day.
Further more I do not feel that Joe public are fully aware of what is really going on in the industry. Everybody who I tell, are shocked, and I do wander if they would feel slightly differently when they are getting on to the aircaft with this knowledge. (I am not saying cadets are unsafe, but I do feel the impact of fatigue of captains continually flying with inexperience FO's may have some affect on flight safety, please correct me if I'm wrong those captains who do not feel this way I will be more than happy to stand corrected).
I was dissappointed that the Panarama program about FR did not Highlight in detail the way pilots and crew are treated. Only to finish with a numpty saying he wants to fly for FR
. Im sure O'leary loved that.So in the long term how will it end up
a) all the decent people leaving the industry and let the flow of Cheap labour fly for nothing.
b) Eventually all the pilots will be fed up with the lowered T&C's and then strike when things are really bad.
I don't know but currently I can't see any positive moves by anyone to stop the situation getting worse.
mint
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A lack of a scope clause makes this sort of thing very difficult to counter.
To any journos reading this, there is a story here for you. Using the right hand seat of a public transport aircraft as a training lab unnecessarily for profit reasons exposes passengers to unnecessary risk.
For any BALPA members reading this, you own the union and if you feel strongly about this, make it work for you - lobby your company council and the NEC as well. A strongly worded letter to the Log would be a good starting point.
To any journos reading this, there is a story here for you. Using the right hand seat of a public transport aircraft as a training lab unnecessarily for profit reasons exposes passengers to unnecessary risk.
For any BALPA members reading this, you own the union and if you feel strongly about this, make it work for you - lobby your company council and the NEC as well. A strongly worded letter to the Log would be a good starting point.
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I do feel the impact of fatigue of captains continually flying with inexperience FO's may have some affect on flight safety, please correct me if I'm wrong those captains who do not feel this way I will be more than happy to stand corrected.
Not necessarily, most of the "inexperienced" are young and enjoy their social status. As a result they take a nap on every other sector which leaves the skipper with an hour or so of undisturbed, peacefull cruising through the skies. Priceless.
Not necessarily, most of the "inexperienced" are young and enjoy their social status. As a result they take a nap on every other sector which leaves the skipper with an hour or so of undisturbed, peacefull cruising through the skies. Priceless.
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As an FO on one of these contracts.
Firstly I didn’t go to the bank of Mum and Dad as CTC was as close to an old sponsored scheme as possible due to the unsecured bond. This was the only way I could afford to enter the industry, otherwise I would have joined the RAF. Hindsight is a wonderful thing I know.
I think that the zombie references is very unfair, this is a career I have always worked towards and have worked very hard and sacrificed a lot to get here. Airlines have always had a requirement for direct entry pilots and airlines have had schemes allowing this. Everybody has to enter the industry through a path and to the best of my knowledge no one I ve flown with has ever had anything critical about the standards of us cadets.
None of us want to be the ones responsible for driving terms and conditions down and are all acutely aware we are. We all turned down joining Ryanair, which CTC were heavily pushing when we finished training, deciding instead to hold out for one of the partner airlines, myself over 9 months. Along with other CTC colleagues I see this as a career and not just the opportunity to fly a big aircraft and hence didn’t want to join Ryanair and contribute to the poor conditions however they appear to have followed us.
We were always led to believe that permanent contracts were on the cards with easyjet at some point. We’re now in the situation where we literally have no other options but accept what ever is given to us. In particular finances are very tight due to the bond now being handed over to us as we’re no longer entitled to the cadet salary. Refusing anything now will only result in us punishing ourselves while other cadets come through and take the positions. I personally do not hold CTC responsible, as if CTC said no, the airline would only go somewhere else.
I believe no one wants to be driving terms and conditions down and are aware this will eventually lead standards and abilities the same way. We want to be in an industry attracting the most competitive applicants.
I am a member of BALPA and am open to suggestions of how we can improve the situation but without the support of our colleagues leaves us with nothing we can do.
I am very grateful to BOECAPT for raising the conversation and on a personal note enjoyed EZGOEK330FO's story.
Firstly I didn’t go to the bank of Mum and Dad as CTC was as close to an old sponsored scheme as possible due to the unsecured bond. This was the only way I could afford to enter the industry, otherwise I would have joined the RAF. Hindsight is a wonderful thing I know.
I think that the zombie references is very unfair, this is a career I have always worked towards and have worked very hard and sacrificed a lot to get here. Airlines have always had a requirement for direct entry pilots and airlines have had schemes allowing this. Everybody has to enter the industry through a path and to the best of my knowledge no one I ve flown with has ever had anything critical about the standards of us cadets.
None of us want to be the ones responsible for driving terms and conditions down and are all acutely aware we are. We all turned down joining Ryanair, which CTC were heavily pushing when we finished training, deciding instead to hold out for one of the partner airlines, myself over 9 months. Along with other CTC colleagues I see this as a career and not just the opportunity to fly a big aircraft and hence didn’t want to join Ryanair and contribute to the poor conditions however they appear to have followed us.
We were always led to believe that permanent contracts were on the cards with easyjet at some point. We’re now in the situation where we literally have no other options but accept what ever is given to us. In particular finances are very tight due to the bond now being handed over to us as we’re no longer entitled to the cadet salary. Refusing anything now will only result in us punishing ourselves while other cadets come through and take the positions. I personally do not hold CTC responsible, as if CTC said no, the airline would only go somewhere else.
I believe no one wants to be driving terms and conditions down and are aware this will eventually lead standards and abilities the same way. We want to be in an industry attracting the most competitive applicants.
I am a member of BALPA and am open to suggestions of how we can improve the situation but without the support of our colleagues leaves us with nothing we can do.
I am very grateful to BOECAPT for raising the conversation and on a personal note enjoyed EZGOEK330FO's story.
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I honestly think it is too late really. easyJet have their flexi crew system for new F/Os and now Jet2 are now effectively offering summer only contracts with reduced pay. The list of new schemes will only get longer and the number airlines that copy and follow suit will only get longer too.
I would personally not shed a tear if I turned my back on the airline industry and moved into the corporate world. At least the treatment of crews does seem to be slightly better when compared to what the airline industry offers. I have only been airline flying for six years but I have many more left. I have noticed a marked change in conditions for crews in those six years. I dread to think what mess the industry will be in 10 years from now, never mind twenty or thirty!
A friend of mine who is at easyJet has recently been off on maternity leave. I was totally astonished when she said to me that she has been informed that she has to pay for the privilege of a jump-seat trip for familiarisation purposes, prior to her getting back in the seat.
Have we all gone barking mad or do I need to wake up and adjust to the 21st century?
I would personally not shed a tear if I turned my back on the airline industry and moved into the corporate world. At least the treatment of crews does seem to be slightly better when compared to what the airline industry offers. I have only been airline flying for six years but I have many more left. I have noticed a marked change in conditions for crews in those six years. I dread to think what mess the industry will be in 10 years from now, never mind twenty or thirty!
A friend of mine who is at easyJet has recently been off on maternity leave. I was totally astonished when she said to me that she has been informed that she has to pay for the privilege of a jump-seat trip for familiarisation purposes, prior to her getting back in the seat.
Have we all gone barking mad or do I need to wake up and adjust to the 21st century?
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Why I am not surprised to hear that one has to start paying for a jump seat now?
Some airlines make you even pay to start the command assessments. If you fail the assessments you are suddenly £4500 short. Its all business.
As the whole aviation business is going, no matter what airline you will be working for, will be crap. All T&C are detoriating for everyone.
easyJet used to be a great place to work. Today I think most employees wish they were not working there anymore. And thats what the management want them to think so they can fire all people on permanent contracts and then hire temp contractors.
Now its apparently offical that easyJet has come to an agreement with Brookfield. Thought that was a goalie for Ryaniar? Interesting evolution here.
Maybe a LOL is not far away, due to mental breakdown....
Some airlines make you even pay to start the command assessments. If you fail the assessments you are suddenly £4500 short. Its all business.
As the whole aviation business is going, no matter what airline you will be working for, will be crap. All T&C are detoriating for everyone.
easyJet used to be a great place to work. Today I think most employees wish they were not working there anymore. And thats what the management want them to think so they can fire all people on permanent contracts and then hire temp contractors.
Now its apparently offical that easyJet has come to an agreement with Brookfield. Thought that was a goalie for Ryaniar? Interesting evolution here.
Maybe a LOL is not far away, due to mental breakdown....
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All you guys at easyJet should stop issing about, join BALPA, get your CC to go in and tell them to stop it or you will make a big demand in 2010 and if you dont get it, you will ballot for action.
Have you got a BALPA forum, do you not talk about this or what.
Have you got a BALPA forum, do you not talk about this or what.
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Some airlines make you even pay to start the command assessments. If you fail the assessments you are suddenly £4500 short. Its all business.
If a company has to ask for charity from their employees they should not be in business. Staff training is a legitimate company cost. Even moreso for SAFETY CRITICAL employees.
When the hell are pilots going to wake up and realise they are getting shagged over a barrel with no vaseline? I am beginning to think that they like it
Everyone asks 'What can a union do for us" and not "What can we do for a union". The union is you, not a group of people in a building in a different base who you send money to each month. A union will give you advice and the backup of your fellow workers but you have to form a company council and organise yourselves. When the management see a cohesive body who have some power to affect their profits, that's when they take notice.
Leo Hairy Camel (anagram of Michael O'Leary BTW) will come on here very soon to debunk this, but it works. My company is the samller of a group of two. The largest have a very disjointed pilot body thanks to a successful campaign of splitting the workforce by the management. They now have two unions who are at each others throats and the main union has less than 50% membership. they achieve nothing and are constantly whining about the reduction in their Ts and Cs, but don't see the big picture. It reminds me of the Peoples Judean Front bitching about the Peoples Front of Judea and not bothering the Romans.
The smaller company has over 95% union membership, our Ts and Cs are intact and two years ago we got a 20% pay rise.
Divide and conquer worked for Julius Caesar and it works for airline management just as well.
Leo Hairy Camel (anagram of Michael O'Leary BTW) will come on here very soon to debunk this, but it works. My company is the samller of a group of two. The largest have a very disjointed pilot body thanks to a successful campaign of splitting the workforce by the management. They now have two unions who are at each others throats and the main union has less than 50% membership. they achieve nothing and are constantly whining about the reduction in their Ts and Cs, but don't see the big picture. It reminds me of the Peoples Judean Front bitching about the Peoples Front of Judea and not bothering the Romans.
The smaller company has over 95% union membership, our Ts and Cs are intact and two years ago we got a 20% pay rise.
Divide and conquer worked for Julius Caesar and it works for airline management just as well.
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I think that the zombie references is very unfair, this is a career I have always worked towards and have worked very hard and sacrificed a lot to get here
And what sacrifices exactly did you make? Sounds to me like you took the easy option that has just blown up in your face.