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Easy worse than Ryanair

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Old 7th Dec 2009, 19:42
  #161 (permalink)  
 
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BALPA are no way close to perfect, and indeed are only as good as the CC that the members have elected (which depends on who volunteers, and their motivation. In the past in BMI for instance, BALPA rep = trainee mangement stooge, which somewhat negated any benefits ) However, apart from some appalling oversights (the Cadet situation springs to mind ) they seem, in Easy at least,to have helped mitigate against previous agreements being run over rough-shod, as per Ryanair.
For this alone, I would suggest you don't dismiss them out of hand.
Finally, they have only the strength of their members resolve (Ooer! ) as a weapon, which is where they failed miserably in FR, but at least provide a degree of moderating influence in Easy, where at least the threat of action CAN be utilised courtesy of the membership levels achieved.
They are not the be all and end all solution per se, but it is a shame that the "moderating" influence they can cast on "negotiations" wasn't appreciated by a wider spectrum of Ryanair pilots.
In Ryanair you can see and reap the rewards of that oversight now, difficult to contradict that management have been allowed free reign by the apathy ineptitude & timidity of the masses, but regretably that is where it is at. Hope for their sakes the Easy pilots can see the longer term picture and try and take care of the future even whilst acknowledging the current depressed market. You shouldn't try and demonise BALPA so vehemently/ repeatedly, it is just as tedious as if I were to try and convince you they are the remedy for all industrial relation ills. . . . which I manifestly don't.
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Old 7th Dec 2009, 20:15
  #162 (permalink)  
 
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I am with busboy on this one. Had my fair share of being let down by Balpa, however now is not the time to dwell on the past. I will be renewing my Balpa membership.

The greater the support for Balpa the more chance we have to limit the damage being done within our industry. Each and everyone of us is responsible for protecting our minimal terms and conditions.

Should Balpa fail on this one, will the last one out please turn out the light.
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Old 7th Dec 2009, 20:30
  #163 (permalink)  
 
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Cap'n P, I don't "demonise" BALPA, nor do I wish to hijack this thread, but you, and others, do have a tendency to gloss over their patent inadequacies, albeit you have a more realistic appreciation of their MO.

Nevertheless, in the main carriers outside of BA they do seem to be singularly inept at protecting the rights of individuals: they may have some success in protecting the rights / Ts & Cs of some minority groups, notably themselves through the CC system, but the needs of the individual are not a priority for them, and you would, no doubt, endorse that, as Arkwright so visibly demonstrated.

And that is where my problem with unions lies: the self interest over the needs of the group.

When you can reform the BALPA equivalent of "Member's Expenses" and in one company reliably demonstrate, time after time, that the union will support the needs of the many over the needs of the few, or will refrain from sacrificing certain rights of the many for some crumb thrown from the table for a few rats to sate themselves on, then I might be more inclined to take some notice of the vitriolic pro-union lemmings.
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Old 8th Dec 2009, 01:48
  #164 (permalink)  
 
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Should Balpa fail on this one, will the last one out please turn out the light.
Leave the lights on - it will give the management an extra cost to worry about.
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Old 8th Dec 2009, 02:15
  #165 (permalink)  
 
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BusBoy - I genuinely wish to thank you for being willing to put the past behind and get on with the job in hand. As you rightly point out, a big altercation may be looming and we need every single member's support. We are delighted to have yours.

The Real Slim Shady - you are, of course, most welcome to participate in this debate given its subject matter. Indeed you are representative of those proud Ryanair pilots who scuppered BALPA's plans at your company earlier this year. You are now the proud recipient of compulsory leave (ie you now only get 11/12 of your promised salary and they still get 900 hours a year out of you. The wonderful advantage of having no union to represent you is that all that nasty negotiation could be dispensed with and you just got told about your pay cut. To the casual outsider, a 1% expenditure on BALPA might seem small beef in comparison with the 8.3% non-negotiated pay cut you had while your company posted a several hundred million Euro profit. Not to worry though, the Blessed Michael is undoubtedly grateful to you all - even if he never quite gets round to telling you. Why have we not had the same deal superimposed upon us given we made less profit than you? Is it because a) Our managers just love us or b) Our managers know BALPA would instantly ballot for strike action were they to do so. Answers on a postcard to NSF @ The Orange Order. In all honesty, the only real difference between Ryanair and easyJet is BALPA - we both have the same complete fascists running our respective companies, albeit yours are a bit more overt about it. Our BALPA reps have spent the last year fighting battle after battle - the truth is they have won some and lost some. If, as seems possible, we are limbering up for the main event then the only protection we will have will be our union. I still believe a compromise will occur at the last minute. However, as can be seen from this debate and numerous private conversations around the company, people are willing to stand up and be counted if there is not a big turnaround. BALPA is the only vehicle through which the pilots' voices will be heard.
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Old 8th Dec 2009, 06:03
  #166 (permalink)  
 
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You are now the proud recipient of compulsory leave (ie you now only get 11/12 of your promised salary and they still get 900 hours a year out of you.
Still yet to see why this is a bad thing?
Just stash 10% of your "earning months" and your sorted, everyone of my non flying pals say they would jump at the chance of taking a months unpaid leave each year if they were offered it.

As long as your careful with your money then you can take a very nice holiday, or actually enjoy crimbo properly.............until you start back on roster on 1st jan
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Old 8th Dec 2009, 08:53
  #167 (permalink)  
 
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Thumbs up

Good post Norman!
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Old 8th Dec 2009, 09:19
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yep great post NSF..

Speevy
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Old 8th Dec 2009, 09:55
  #169 (permalink)  
 
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Post Decency Blindness.

Norman, as much as I love you, it really does you no service to throw rocks across the water. Most pilots of my acquaintance here in Air Pikey absolutely adore their month off. Think of it, an entire month! No uniform, no alarm clock, no union guaranteed stale cheese sandwich and tepid tea, no slots, no fuel receipts, no cadet trainees determined to kill you. Old boy, it’s nothing short of paradise. As you correctly point out, month off included, we're still the most productive pilots in €urope, and when you multiply 900 hours by our hourly rates, even a junior FO is on seriously decent coin. To that you can add home every night, brand new planes and all of that without BLAPA’s fickle fingers anywhere near at hand. Imagine!

You've made it plain that you hold your BLAPA in high regard, Norman. I maintain they don't deserve your loyalty. In fact, I would go so far as to suggest, with enormous respect, that you've permitted a profound sense of Doric decency to brush over that part of your mind usually reserved for rational discourse. But then, I know the beast BLAPA, warts and all, and hold unions in the same high regard one usually reserves for testicular carcinoma. They play to your fear, encourage the entirely false notion of strength in numbers whilst simultaneously counting all the money and distributing it to themselves, who are, I can assure you, in desperate financial straights. All of this whilst trying to cast a web of collective amnesia over those royally screwed by the BLAPA of Christmases past.

You are too nice and too good to be a cheerleader for the mediocrity in brogues that is BLAPA, Norman, and if you took off your rose coloured glasses long enough to observe your beloved union felching between the well-padded buttocks of British Airways pilots, you would see as I do, that they subscribe to the old wisdom that a wasted crisis is a terrible thing. Beware Norman. You are being massaged, and not in the good way.

Don't take my word for it, old boy. Ask the chaps at Thompson/Virgin/BMI how they value their "co-operative, consultative relationships" with BLAPA. Or better still, ask the 25 BMI Captains who've just joined us rather than wait until January reveals for them an even less certain future at the hands of the Luftwaffe. Not to worry, though. As of yesterday, we have harp embroidered jerseys for another 23 DEC's for next year so far. Do let me know if you need a pointer. The race for the LGW base is sure to be mad.
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Old 8th Dec 2009, 10:06
  #170 (permalink)  
 
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Great post Norman !! Shame it is absolute codswallop

Our leave system, the annual leave system which applies to all pilots, is that we each apply for a calendar month in a single block and the remaining 10 days we take in another 1 or 2 blocks. Because we have a wrap round system in place, 5 days leave is actually 13 days off, and a calendar month counts as 18 days leave.

The BRK contractors just put aside some of their huge earnings to cover the month off: the rest of us get paid our basic and our other allowances ( which you don't need to know about).

We didn't negotiate any pay cut: all we did was adjust the leave system, bearing in mind that a lot of people, like me, who don't have school age children, don't need leave in school in holidays any more and are quite happy to take leave over the winter ( Caribbean is still warm as is the Far East). We still have eactly the same amount of time off as leave, we just have in different blocks.

One of my colleagues has just returned from his month off having travelled to Malaysia and the Phillipines: another is looking forward to having his ski-ing holiday in the whole month of February and I am still to decide whether I go to to Australia for my month off - never had the leave to be able to travel that distance before - or just head off to the western US or Caribbean. When I talk to my colleagues about your " forced paycut leave system" oddly enough they all love it, because your spin is utter tosh and divorced from reality.

Turning now to your threat of strike action, exactly how far do you think that will get you? How much "solidarity" do you expect from your other union members? Will the BA pilots stand shoulder to shoulder with you? Will the bmi pilots be there, warming their hands over your picket line fires with their "brothers" from bmibaby?

The bmi / baby guys with 737 TRs won't: they will doing the FR interview and sim to get a job that pays better than the one they have been made redundant from - what did BALPA do for them - is more secure and offers them a career with roster stability, high earnings, the opportunity to bid to work in any of 34+ bases around Europe and a great leave system.

All that will happen is that you will rattle your rusty sabres and the management wil offer you a crumb or two, push through what they want, promote a few of your CC to LTC / TRE / Management posts, close another base and force retirement on people - we aren't making you redundant, there is a job for you in Milan / Berlin / Insert new Polish base here.

You carry on supporting the good cause, and when you go on strike we will pick up your disgruntled pax, or what is left of bmi will pick up your ticked off pax, or Wizzair, or Vuelling / Clickair or Air Berlin or Germanwings.

Get the idea ????

The travelling public has a huge choice of LoCos: if you lot strike they will just change carrier. Pyrrhic Victory for BALPA.

Now if your BALPA is so great, perhaps you will explain, in some detail and with a substantive logical argument, why they have approved the use of cheap labour at easy ( the CTC cadets ) facilitating their exploitation by the company, and the introduction of 145s at LHR with bmi, in breach of the scope agreement, which is now threatening mainline jobs in the wake of the LH cutbacks? Can you tell me what they did to protect / help the guys at Silverjet / Excel ? I won't go on: you get the drift.

And finally;

Indeed you are representative of those proud Ryanair pilots who scuppered BALPA's plans at your company earlier this year.
I wasn't a representative, nor am I now: myself and Leo were the leaders and continue to be.
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Old 8th Dec 2009, 11:44
  #171 (permalink)  
 
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You love your compulsory unpaid month off and some chaps even love having painful looking things up where the sun doesnīt shine. There is just no accounting for human nature. You tell us that you love the fat kid in the play ground that bullies you, you love it when you are made to eat your own turds, you love to have your lunch taken away... I do not mind you lying to us but is the lying to yourself that worries me. Perhaps you do well to love it as you have no choice. Maybe it gives you the illusion of some dignity.

We at Ezy do have a choice and it will be exercised very soon. The playground bully ainīt having my lunch. If it gets ugly then so be it but hey good luck with your descent into masochism accross the pond.

Last edited by Elephant and Castle; 8th Dec 2009 at 14:45.
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Old 8th Dec 2009, 11:56
  #172 (permalink)  
 
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Elephant.....we don't have lunch to take away; we take our own. Then again, didn't the taxman take your company provided food into account to tax your flight pay?

Now instead of descending in to playground rants, why not just answer the questions about BALPA, the CTC cadets and the 145s at LHR?
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Old 8th Dec 2009, 12:27
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Slim Shady - it's such a shame, but then i guess you've known nothing else.
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Old 8th Dec 2009, 14:09
  #174 (permalink)  
 
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The BRK contractors just put aside some of their huge earnings to cover the month off: the rest of us get paid our basic and our other allowances ( which you don't need to know about).
Oh well thats ok then. Let the BRK lads bend over and take it. In other words the majority of FR pilots get shafted to preserve the T&Cs of the rest of you. Which is why you and Leo would never accept any of BALPA's rhetoric. Every man for himself suits you - the vocal minority - just fine.

Ezy is far from perfect. You are correct that the cadets who have joined over the past 18 months have been treated disgracefully. You are also correct that BALPA do not provide all the answers, but our CC have done a fantastic job preserving our T&Cs, regardless of rank, in the face of an FR style onslaught from our MOL clones at Orange HQ. Despite having to deal with pilots based across Europe on several different contracts and increasing efforts to divide the pilot workforce further, our Balpa reps have done their best to draw a line in the sand, through proper consultation, that they believe our pilot workforce does not wish to cross. We are standing on the edge of that line now, and it is down to us as a group to act collectively to keep what we have, and just as importantly to preserve it for those who wish to join us in the future. If we don't act together then so be it - the consequences will be dire and we will have only ourselves to blame. Leo can post some more of his amusing youtube clips. But at least thanks to proper union recognition, we have given ourselves that chance.

You might be happy as a pig in Slim, but don't tell us that all these BRK contractors are happy with their lot. If they are it is simply because they don't know any better, or have been spending too much time talking with you and Leo. The BMI guys who have just joined in the LHS have done so because they had no other option. I doubt any of them ever aspired to work for FR. They are joining because circumstances elsewhere dictate they suddenly have no way to pay their mortgages. I very much doubt any of them will be enjoying the obsolete contracts that you and Leo are sitting pretty on. You might be ok, but for guys lower down the chain it is pretty desperate. You might not care about that, or even recognise it, but there are enough of us who do. The profession cannot afford the I'm Alright Jack attitude that has become the status quo at FR, because it will only take us one way. Balpa with all its imperfections is the only option left.
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Old 8th Dec 2009, 14:30
  #175 (permalink)  
 
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Slim

The BRK contractors just put aside some of their huge earnings to cover the month off...
Just subtract taxes (ough!) pension, medical, car parking, hotels, crewfood and health insurance, and all over sudden that famously "huge" salary isn't really so huge anymore...

We didn't negotiate any pay cut: all we did was adjust the leave system...
All RyanScare did was adjust the system. You weren't asked, you didn't negotiate, you were told to take a month off or else... Major difference, but of course you're too thick to realize that.

Ah, the blessings of having no union!
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Old 8th Dec 2009, 15:44
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So how big is that BRK salary really, then?

If you fly 900 hours (which is quite a lot as every airline pilot who has been flying for a while can assure you) that will give you:
900x124,35 Euros=111.915,00 Euros gross.

111.915x0,65=72.745 euros per annum after tax (optimistic tax rate).
From that amount you have to subtract:
Uniform, medical, sim training twice a year, parking permit, health insurance, ID cost, etc.

72745:12=6062 euros a month after tax.

Now the average pound/euro exchange rate is 1.40 I believe, but let's be generous again and take today's exhange rate of 1.18035:
6062:1.18035=5136 pounds per month.

Bear in mind that in order to enjoy this fantastic salary you have had to: PAY to apply to be hired, PAY for your type rating (unless you hold a 737NG rating; a 737 300-900 rating doesn't count) to the tune of 38000 euros, PAY the application fee for a command upgrade, etc.

Bear also in mind that you can forget about the aforementioned BRK hourly rate, because it is already extinct as it was deemed too generous for the present market conditions.
Instead it is heading towards the 90 euro per hour mark if I am not mistaken.

Anybody keen to apply?

Didn't think so.

By the way as an aside if you haven't figured it yourself already, Leo IS MOL himself and Shady IS his management pilot bulldog.

Still wonder why they are so poisonous against our union?
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Old 8th Dec 2009, 15:45
  #177 (permalink)  
 
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That union would be the one that have just given Thomson the the old "rollover and take the redundancies like it or lump it" blessing would it?

Check the Thomson thread just next to this then try again to be a tad more convincing.

Reality......what a concept.
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Old 8th Dec 2009, 15:50
  #178 (permalink)  
 
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You guessed it allright!
Same union and proud of it!
Care to comment about the fantastic salary opportunities at BRK/Ruinair since in the past you have been quite vocal in advertising them?
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Old 8th Dec 2009, 15:57
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I might be wrong on this one but I suspect it is quite shameful for someone like Leo-Hairy-Camel to write on these forums PRETENDING to be what he didn't succeed in becoming, i.e. an Airline Pilot.

The reality, however painful, couldn't be more obvious though!
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Old 8th Dec 2009, 16:02
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Slim

Reality......what a concept.
You know, the thing is, less and less pilots are buying into your version of reality any longer.

You can drag Thompson into the debate, you can ask your 'biatch' LHC (or are you his biatch?) to post some silly videos, but you can not paper over the truth that the unionless BRK deal is a bad deal.
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