RYANAIR thoughts
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Shame on you MOL, stop this slavery in aviation. How do you expect me to live on my £90,000 a year, and you are working me to death on my 5 on 4 off.
My full month's holiday, plus two 13 day breaks a year are also making it verry dificult to take the family away. Shame on you!
I can't wait for BALPA to get involved and screw it all up for us "NOT"
My full month's holiday, plus two 13 day breaks a year are also making it verry dificult to take the family away. Shame on you!
I can't wait for BALPA to get involved and screw it all up for us "NOT"
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You forgot the allowances
Ballsout, you are absolutely right, it is a shame, and what about the allowances and the pension, I would rather loose them and get the good old 5/3 roster back.
Maybe Balpa will be able to drag us back to these horrible conditions in a few years time ? (Fee only about 5-600 £ a year)
Maybe Balpa will be able to drag us back to these horrible conditions in a few years time ? (Fee only about 5-600 £ a year)
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Aldente, with all due respect,
What i do in my spare time (be that Ppruning or doing the washing) is none of your business.
I was one of the people who said that too.
As me and danyalliga have said before (note he does not agree with what i think nor do i agree with what he thinks about the BALPA involvement in FR), people said what they had to say, brought in facts (as they see them), numbers, scenarios and so on.
Now all we can do is wait and see what happens.
Please read the said post again and read between the lines, it's called sarcasm.
Let me get this right: so if people (likes of myself) do not agree with what other people say (like yourself, mr repa and danyalliga) then they are "wound up"? Or classed as "management" as mr repa believes whenever someone doesn't agree with his views?
Please, no more BALPA is going to do this, that and the other, no more gloryfying BALPA. I listened, read rather what you had to say and i get it, you think BALPA is good for us. I think just the oposite.
Should we wait and see then?
What i do in my spare time (be that Ppruning or doing the washing) is none of your business.
As someone has already said, let them have the vote, then it can be put to bed and forgotten about.
As me and danyalliga have said before (note he does not agree with what i think nor do i agree with what he thinks about the BALPA involvement in FR), people said what they had to say, brought in facts (as they see them), numbers, scenarios and so on.
Now all we can do is wait and see what happens.
ATS, your posts are now bordering on the hysterical !(bricks through windows etc). If what you say about lack of support is true, then you have nothing to worry about. So why are you and hubby so wound up ?!
Let me get this right: so if people (likes of myself) do not agree with what other people say (like yourself, mr repa and danyalliga) then they are "wound up"? Or classed as "management" as mr repa believes whenever someone doesn't agree with his views?
Please, no more BALPA is going to do this, that and the other, no more gloryfying BALPA. I listened, read rather what you had to say and i get it, you think BALPA is good for us. I think just the oposite.
Should we wait and see then?
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90 K !!
EPR, the net you take home every month is representing more than 90 K if you compare to any other salaries in the UK, and you are only working at the most 15 - 18 days a month on a 5/4 basis.
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The company isn't terrified of recognition.
The company simply will not deal with BALPA: BALPA has no part to play in the commercial decisions made by the company management.
That said, initial explorations indicate that the company may be prepared to recognise and negotiate with a different association which is more benign and adopts a less militant stance, working in partnership, rather than against the company.
The company has not put a cost on treating it's employee's better: the majority of the people I speak with are very content with the fundamentals of the current term's and conditions.
Improvements such as a simplified base transfer bidding system, a web based leave bid system with graphical display of available leave at each base and a web based roster swap system for each base have been the main "improvements" people have suggested.
We don't want crew meals; we don't want artificial limits placed on our EU Ops flying hours; we don't want our 5 / 4 roster changed; we don't want some outside agency negotiating pay and conditions on our behalf.
We don't want through the night flying or night stops: we are paid better than the vast majority of airlines and our jobs are secure.
Simples!
WE are having a vote, and the pilots are overwhelmingly rejecting the application for recognition. That's the pilots, not union members, not the BALPA pilot community, but the pilots, be they, or be they not, members of BALPA, IALPA or the IPA.
BALPA, however, don't accept that: they want to engage with the BALPA pilot community exclusively.
On the other hand, we take a more inclusive stance: everyone can be "engaged", everyone can vote and they can vote according to their opinions and conscience.
BALPA will not get recognition: not at EMA, not at PIK, not at LTN or anywhere else. They see the FR pilots as an income stream to fund their dining and C class travel to international bunfights masquerading as conferences. Fortunately, the FR pilot is a canny character who can see through this and doesn't buy the BALPA tub thumpers nebulous claims.
The FR pilot can read the small print and knows that BALPA "legal protection" is discretionary and that commercial products that guarantee support are available.
BALPA has nothing to offer, and indeed, if they persist with this manifestly irresponsible campaign could find that the company throws it's resources behind the pilots, and BALPA, with its puny cash reserves, ceases to exist in its present form and its members have to dig deep into their pockets to pay the legal bills.
Punishing or penalising the pilots? No, backing them with 2 billion + Euro of resources.
The company simply will not deal with BALPA: BALPA has no part to play in the commercial decisions made by the company management.
That said, initial explorations indicate that the company may be prepared to recognise and negotiate with a different association which is more benign and adopts a less militant stance, working in partnership, rather than against the company.
The company has not put a cost on treating it's employee's better: the majority of the people I speak with are very content with the fundamentals of the current term's and conditions.
Improvements such as a simplified base transfer bidding system, a web based leave bid system with graphical display of available leave at each base and a web based roster swap system for each base have been the main "improvements" people have suggested.
We don't want crew meals; we don't want artificial limits placed on our EU Ops flying hours; we don't want our 5 / 4 roster changed; we don't want some outside agency negotiating pay and conditions on our behalf.
We don't want through the night flying or night stops: we are paid better than the vast majority of airlines and our jobs are secure.
Simples!
WE are having a vote, and the pilots are overwhelmingly rejecting the application for recognition. That's the pilots, not union members, not the BALPA pilot community, but the pilots, be they, or be they not, members of BALPA, IALPA or the IPA.
BALPA, however, don't accept that: they want to engage with the BALPA pilot community exclusively.
On the other hand, we take a more inclusive stance: everyone can be "engaged", everyone can vote and they can vote according to their opinions and conscience.
BALPA will not get recognition: not at EMA, not at PIK, not at LTN or anywhere else. They see the FR pilots as an income stream to fund their dining and C class travel to international bunfights masquerading as conferences. Fortunately, the FR pilot is a canny character who can see through this and doesn't buy the BALPA tub thumpers nebulous claims.
The FR pilot can read the small print and knows that BALPA "legal protection" is discretionary and that commercial products that guarantee support are available.
BALPA has nothing to offer, and indeed, if they persist with this manifestly irresponsible campaign could find that the company throws it's resources behind the pilots, and BALPA, with its puny cash reserves, ceases to exist in its present form and its members have to dig deep into their pockets to pay the legal bills.
Punishing or penalising the pilots? No, backing them with 2 billion + Euro of resources.
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UK VIKING
I agree my p60 was well over 90k and 5/4 works well for me.
I 'm not to sure what BALPA want to achieve for us during what is the worst financial crisis since the great depression combined with a pandemic swine flu outbreack which is going to hit aviation very hard in the next few months.
I agree my p60 was well over 90k and 5/4 works well for me.
I 'm not to sure what BALPA want to achieve for us during what is the worst financial crisis since the great depression combined with a pandemic swine flu outbreack which is going to hit aviation very hard in the next few months.
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I will quote Martin Levitt in how employees are manipulated with set emotions to take whatever actions the management desire.
"A Union Buster without the atmosphere or climate of FEAR is like working without one leg and one arm, FEAR is essential"
"Employees live on a daily diet that they almost feed on and that daily diet consists of IGNORANCE, FEAR, GREED and EGO"
Does anyone see the similarities to the email in question or some of the posters that are here on PPRUNE? Because I see all these emotions in play on here and especially in the email.
GREED and EGO..
Well EGO is very prevalent in posters of the know it all, I know best kind. 
I notice that questions are still not been answered so I will put one of them from another poster up again but there are various others. I also notice that the application of statute which has now been clearly explained and presented is not being questioned which poses questions. The email was either WRONG because of misinterpretation or it was MISLEADING due to a personal agenda? Which is it? Also where did this body of text concerning the 10% test come from in the email to the juncture of decloration?
Here is another posters question;
"A Union Buster without the atmosphere or climate of FEAR is like working without one leg and one arm, FEAR is essential"
"Employees live on a daily diet that they almost feed on and that daily diet consists of IGNORANCE, FEAR, GREED and EGO"
Does anyone see the similarities to the email in question or some of the posters that are here on PPRUNE? Because I see all these emotions in play on here and especially in the email.
GREED and EGO..
Well EGO is very prevalent in posters of the know it all, I know best kind. I notice that questions are still not been answered so I will put one of them from another poster up again but there are various others. I also notice that the application of statute which has now been clearly explained and presented is not being questioned which poses questions. The email was either WRONG because of misinterpretation or it was MISLEADING due to a personal agenda? Which is it? Also where did this body of text concerning the 10% test come from in the email to the juncture of decloration?
Here is another posters question;
The campaign only asks for dignity and respect - why is Ryanair putting a cost on or a penalty for treating its employees better?
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Oh dear alibaba.
You really are a sad, pathetic, one track, blinkered little lemming racing headlong after your BALPA heroes to the cliff edge: lucky for you I'm sufficiently magnanimous in victory to provide you with a safety net.
No one is scared of BALPA: we, the cogent majority, simply want nothing to do with them. The company isn't "terrified" of unions as I explained in an earlier post.
There is no place for BALPA or it's culture of self indulgence in Ryanair: now if you don't like that you have the option to vote with your feet and let those of us who are quite happy get on with our jobs and our lives.
Now, I have explained about the 10% test and the applicability of that test ( union members - not workers) and that the CAC may, but doesn't have to - read the qualifying conditions - order a ballot.
So if the CAC decide that they don't want to order a ballot, for whatever reason they may have, the 10% test has been passed and recognition can be awarded if the majority of workers belong to the union. Which is why people are resigning from the union!
50%+1 of the workers are union members and whether they want recognition or not.......they get it, without a ballot, just because of the 10% test.
And before you say that all BALPA members want recognition, that is not the case.
You really are a sad, pathetic, one track, blinkered little lemming racing headlong after your BALPA heroes to the cliff edge: lucky for you I'm sufficiently magnanimous in victory to provide you with a safety net.
No one is scared of BALPA: we, the cogent majority, simply want nothing to do with them. The company isn't "terrified" of unions as I explained in an earlier post.
There is no place for BALPA or it's culture of self indulgence in Ryanair: now if you don't like that you have the option to vote with your feet and let those of us who are quite happy get on with our jobs and our lives.
Now, I have explained about the 10% test and the applicability of that test ( union members - not workers) and that the CAC may, but doesn't have to - read the qualifying conditions - order a ballot.
So if the CAC decide that they don't want to order a ballot, for whatever reason they may have, the 10% test has been passed and recognition can be awarded if the majority of workers belong to the union. Which is why people are resigning from the union!
50%+1 of the workers are union members and whether they want recognition or not.......they get it, without a ballot, just because of the 10% test.
And before you say that all BALPA members want recognition, that is not the case.
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Improvements such as a simplified base transfer bidding system, a web based leave bid system with graphical display of available leave at each base and a web based roster swap system for each base have been the main "improvements" people have suggested.
We don't want crew meals; we don't want artificial limits placed on our EU Ops flying hours; we don't want our 5 / 4 roster changed; we don't want some outside agency negotiating pay and conditions on our behalf
We don't want crew meals; we don't want artificial limits placed on our EU Ops flying hours; we don't want our 5 / 4 roster changed; we don't want some outside agency negotiating pay and conditions on our behalf
We don't want a PENSION? we don't want a SOCIAL PROTECTION?
come on... what is that!!!
we are paid better than the vast majority of airlines and our jobs are secure
Take your money you get, substract money for pension, for health insurance, hotel to the sim, Months off, etc...
What do you have at the end, less than a lot of normal Airline, you are just magnify by figures you get on your bank account...
How much money do you get if you are sick and bed blocked for 5 months? (Did you ever think about that).
Does your job is so secure???(with Ryanair???
)I don't think so, you are just a Dreamer!
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Ballsout, your statements are misleading and do not reflect reality. You are MOL or very close.
Some people here speak as if they were pilots. They're just MOL's team pretending they're so happy in marvel land. What a farce !
Ryanair pilots, please, don't let this down. Whatever your nationality, whatever your base. You're entitled to respect, not bully. The game Ryanair's management is playing is disgusting.
Some people here speak as if they were pilots. They're just MOL's team pretending they're so happy in marvel land. What a farce !
Ryanair pilots, please, don't let this down. Whatever your nationality, whatever your base. You're entitled to respect, not bully. The game Ryanair's management is playing is disgusting.
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FRpilot, according my contract I can be sick up to 6 months and still have my basic, a lot more than the orange I am told.
FRying, I am certainly not management but I guess I have seen more unions doing more damage than the opposite in the last 25 years than you have and if you can't earth your self enough to see that this is just not the best timing for a Balpa recognition, then go ahead, make it even worse.
Correct, I am afraid of loosing what I already have and I will definately loose it the very same day as a Balpa recognition is a reality and it will take Balpa a very long time just to get that part back if they ever will.
By the way do any of you guys think that Parc, Wynwith, Sigmar etc. pilots can vote for any union recognition in those companies they are contracted with ?
Doesn't Brookfield have pilots in India as well and are they able to vote for a Ryanair Balpa recognition ?
FRying, I am certainly not management but I guess I have seen more unions doing more damage than the opposite in the last 25 years than you have and if you can't earth your self enough to see that this is just not the best timing for a Balpa recognition, then go ahead, make it even worse.
Correct, I am afraid of loosing what I already have and I will definately loose it the very same day as a Balpa recognition is a reality and it will take Balpa a very long time just to get that part back if they ever will.
By the way do any of you guys think that Parc, Wynwith, Sigmar etc. pilots can vote for any union recognition in those companies they are contracted with ?
Doesn't Brookfield have pilots in India as well and are they able to vote for a Ryanair Balpa recognition ?
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You really are a sad, pathetic, one track, blinkered little lemming racing headlong after your BALPA heroes to the cliff edge:
I do tough realise I have no business commenting on your mental complexities unlike you on me. Maybe that is a measure of the man? 
I will ask the questions again maybe someone would like to answer them?
the application of statute which has now been clearly explained and presented is not being questioned which poses questions. The email was either WRONG because of misinterpretation or it was MISLEADING due to a personal agenda? Which is it? Also where did this body of text concerning the 10% test come from in the email to the juncture of declaration?
Was this email and list obtained a valid version of democracy universally acknowledged?
No need for a cigar then..
You really are a sad, pathetic
I'm sufficiently magnanimous in victory to provide you with a safety net.
What guarantee’s can you provide me with in reference to a "safety net" that you or I can't lose our jobs tomorrow in Ryanair no matter what the economic climate apart from trying to court favour with management? Which “safety net” are you inferring to and from whom?
culture of self indulgence in Ryanair
"Employees live on a daily diet that they almost feed on and that daily diet consists of IGNORANCE, FEAR, GREED and EGO"
So if the CAC decide that they don't want to order a ballot
the CAC is satisfied that a ballot should be held in the interests of good industrial relations;
It was I who posted the statute in full without BIASED or MISREPRESENTED facts unlike the email or some posts on PPRUNE. So your small minded patronising attacking posts are not needed. I have no desire to treat fellow professionals in such a way as I think the arguments are there to present for themselves on either side which comes down to FEAR.
50%+1 of the workers are union members and whether they want recognition or not.......they get it, without a ballot, just because of the 10% test
the CAC is satisfied that a ballot should be held in the interests of good industrial relations;
So what was the promise for INDIVIDUALS and or EMA from PB, DOB and EW for collusion in such Union Busting practices? I hope you got it in writing for whatever that is worth in Ryanair?
I look forward to you answering these questions around the time the next ice age comes round.
BALPA for PROFESSIONAL REPRESENTATION of UK BASED, MULTI NATIONAL PROFESSIONAL RYANAIR PILOTS or a future working life dictated by armchair solicitors, economists and psychiatrists?
Your choice if your management or your co-workers allow you that free democratic choice?
Last edited by alibaba; 6th Jul 2009 at 17:24. Reason: Safety Net? Which one?
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FRying, I am not MOL, I am not anything to do with management. I am simply a Ryanair captain that is very happy with the deal he has now and doesn't want BALPA to bugger things up. If you bothered to look at my profile and posting history you could easily conclude I am a genuine poster!
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I think we should bring the discussion back to basics, there's way too much misleading information circulating and it's very unfair and childish given the seriousness of the subject.
Let's put things straight once for all:
Well at today's exchange rate 90.000 Sterling equals 105.000 euros so: 105.000 divided by 12 months equals 8750.
If it's a gross figure let's subtract 30% tax from it (let's pretend you live in a very tax favourable country with a low tax regime) and we come up with 63.000 sterling or 73.000 euros that equals to 5250STG/6083EUR per month.
To these figures you have to subtract health insurance,private pension, loss of licence, car park, uniform, hotels, meals, transportation just to name the money that needs to be spend just to be able to work.
If it's a net figure you should have made 136.000 EUR gross which is what a BRK floater would make with 950 hours and 30% tax (I whish...).
The other day I spoke with an F/O who had his 13 days allocated when he didn't want them and the month after he got his full month off also unwanted....great for the family if he had one but pretty bad for his finances (BRK contract) because that left him broke for 2 months when F/O's are complaining for low hours/income.
Also pretty bad because his next annual leave is in 8 months.
See the numbers above, making 6000EUR/month as a Captain for 900 hours/year without even a pension scheme isn't really something to be proud of.
Oh the 5/4 system works fine for you?
Why don't you ask most F/O's who are on STBY most of their ON days making ZERO money on BRK contracts that they were forced to sign?
Or why not asking those guys who joined FR for their fantastic 5/4 system just to find themselves in some of the new italian bases with a 5/3?
The management has surely succeeded in the "divide&conquer" techniques given the extremely short sighted and selfish comments some of you are posting here.
This battle is starting in the UK but it's about the whole company and its 33 bases, get a good sleep tonight and try to look a bit further than your noses tomorrow.
Let's put things straight once for all:
How do you expect me to live on my £90,000 a year
If it's a gross figure let's subtract 30% tax from it (let's pretend you live in a very tax favourable country with a low tax regime) and we come up with 63.000 sterling or 73.000 euros that equals to 5250STG/6083EUR per month.
To these figures you have to subtract health insurance,private pension, loss of licence, car park, uniform, hotels, meals, transportation just to name the money that needs to be spend just to be able to work.
If it's a net figure you should have made 136.000 EUR gross which is what a BRK floater would make with 950 hours and 30% tax (I whish...).
My full month's holiday, plus two 13 day breaks a year are also making it verry dificult to take the family away
Also pretty bad because his next annual leave is in 8 months.
I agree my p60 was well over 90k and 5/4 works well for me.
Oh the 5/4 system works fine for you?
Why don't you ask most F/O's who are on STBY most of their ON days making ZERO money on BRK contracts that they were forced to sign?
Or why not asking those guys who joined FR for their fantastic 5/4 system just to find themselves in some of the new italian bases with a 5/3?
The management has surely succeeded in the "divide&conquer" techniques given the extremely short sighted and selfish comments some of you are posting here.
This battle is starting in the UK but it's about the whole company and its 33 bases, get a good sleep tonight and try to look a bit further than your noses tomorrow.
The supreme excellence is not to win a hundred victories in a
hundred battles. The supreme excellence is to subdue the armies of your
enemies without even having to fight them.
Lao-Tzu
(BC 600-?, Chinese Philosopher, Founder of Taoism, Author of the "Tao Te Ching")
hundred battles. The supreme excellence is to subdue the armies of your
enemies without even having to fight them.
Lao-Tzu
(BC 600-?, Chinese Philosopher, Founder of Taoism, Author of the "Tao Te Ching")
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Brookfield or Ryanair ?
Dannyalliga, you are mostly talking Brookfield stuff, this thread is about Ryanair imployees and Balpa, if Brookfield guys wants other t&c's, isn't that a matter of getting Brookfield recognized as they put up these problems or even more simply, just don't take a contract with Brookfield, no pilots from Brookfield means Ryanair have to get some from other brookers or even employ direct as a Ryanair pilot, not simple as that but maybe the only problem right now is the amount of pilots and cadets that are willing to take the offer as it is now and by that also accept it.
I am Ryanair and my t&c's are to my satisfaction, I don't need to be recognized by Balpa and loose some of my agreements because some Brookfield pilots have totally other subjects to discuss, we can't negotiate together as we have different t&c's. Personally I think it is quite bad conditions for a young cadet, but he still took the contract with Brookfield and hopefully read the contract and checked out all the t&c's, talked to other Brookfield pilots or checked Pprune before he signed ?
I am Ryanair and my t&c's are to my satisfaction, I don't need to be recognized by Balpa and loose some of my agreements because some Brookfield pilots have totally other subjects to discuss, we can't negotiate together as we have different t&c's. Personally I think it is quite bad conditions for a young cadet, but he still took the contract with Brookfield and hopefully read the contract and checked out all the t&c's, talked to other Brookfield pilots or checked Pprune before he signed ?
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Now we have an answer.
BRK Pilots you dont count here is how I read UK Viking.
Yet you are a large part of all UK bases.
BALPA members or not you cannot have a vote and your voice cannot be heard, only RYR contacts matter.
Now we know the truth why should the BRK pilots jobs/ base/lives be put at risk by a militant few who believe that BALPA is the cure for all their ill's.
Any BRK pilot who believes in fairness cannot allow a few IDIOTS to ruin their careers, and have their views ignored.
IF BRK pilots get a chance to vote, their logical answer should be "NO" to BALPA.
Why simply because BALPA can and will do NOTHING for you, and why should you wish for your base to be closed, and all jobs forfeit.
To the BALPA diehards "Think of the Big picture your colleagues and job losses"
As Night changes to Day you can be sure Ryanair management WILL carry out their treat on the first and any subsequent base that votes BALPA in.
BRK Pilots you dont count here is how I read UK Viking.
Yet you are a large part of all UK bases.
BALPA members or not you cannot have a vote and your voice cannot be heard, only RYR contacts matter.
Now we know the truth why should the BRK pilots jobs/ base/lives be put at risk by a militant few who believe that BALPA is the cure for all their ill's.
Any BRK pilot who believes in fairness cannot allow a few IDIOTS to ruin their careers, and have their views ignored.
IF BRK pilots get a chance to vote, their logical answer should be "NO" to BALPA.
Why simply because BALPA can and will do NOTHING for you, and why should you wish for your base to be closed, and all jobs forfeit.
To the BALPA diehards "Think of the Big picture your colleagues and job losses"
As Night changes to Day you can be sure Ryanair management WILL carry out their treat on the first and any subsequent base that votes BALPA in.
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Quote from The Real Slim Shady
What "outside agency" ?! Have you ever worked in an airline with BALPA recognition ?
BALPA representation at a unionised airline consists of Company Councils, drawn from the ranks of ordinary pilot members from that airline. These members meet with management and negotiate on behalf of the other pilots.
So how would you call that negotiating via an outside agency ? The only difference is that the BALPA CC's would have the backing and resources of a large organisation with access to departments to give them support and guidance on various employment matters.
Can you tell me what resources the ERC's have to draw on ? ..........
"we don't want some outside agency negotiating pay and conditions on our behalf"
What "outside agency" ?! Have you ever worked in an airline with BALPA recognition ?
BALPA representation at a unionised airline consists of Company Councils, drawn from the ranks of ordinary pilot members from that airline. These members meet with management and negotiate on behalf of the other pilots.
So how would you call that negotiating via an outside agency ? The only difference is that the BALPA CC's would have the backing and resources of a large organisation with access to departments to give them support and guidance on various employment matters.
Can you tell me what resources the ERC's have to draw on ? ..........