RYANAIR thoughts
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gatbusdriver
The answer to your questions,
1 - down the toilet
2 - union recognition.
The head of personnel in Ryanair is on record (unofficialy of course) as saying "what you guys need is a union"
The mangement are astounded, read ASTOUNDED that the pilot are so stupid, and so absolutely thick that they cannot appreciate that
Jeezuz 
ask EW what the pilots need . . . what does he reply ? union representation. . . how thick can people be ? ? ? 
Don't know (in fact I'm quite sure not
) if what a Ryanair Boeing driver needs is somebody from the "Atlantic Barons old boys club" going into the ring with the Dublin Street Fighters that they work for. As previous posters have suggested , something a bit more "roughneck" might be in order, I don't think Lord King was a pushover , but he wasn't MOL 
Too many brain dead wee laddies in FR though, and until their testicles descend nothing will happen. . . .
Well, in life we get what we deserve, earn, and demand, don't hold your breath UK pilots, back to the DUB guys but they are already tired of fighting I suspect, apart from JG (Good on you mate
)
The answer to your questions,
1 - down the toilet
2 - union recognition.
The head of personnel in Ryanair is on record (unofficialy of course) as saying "what you guys need is a union"
The mangement are astounded, read ASTOUNDED that the pilot are so stupid, and so absolutely thick that they cannot appreciate that
Jeezuz ask EW what the pilots need . . . what does he reply ? union representation. . . how thick can people be ? ? ? Don't know (in fact I'm quite sure not
) if what a Ryanair Boeing driver needs is somebody from the "Atlantic Barons old boys club" going into the ring with the Dublin Street Fighters that they work for. As previous posters have suggested , something a bit more "roughneck" might be in order, I don't think Lord King was a pushover , but he wasn't MOL Too many brain dead wee laddies in FR though, and until their testicles descend nothing will happen. . . .
Well, in life we get what we deserve, earn, and demand, don't hold your breath UK pilots, back to the DUB guys but they are already tired of fighting I suspect, apart from JG (Good on you mate
)
Last edited by captplaystation; 8th Jul 2009 at 22:00.
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For some reason I felt compelled to write this now and not earlier, although I've been following this thread pretty much from the beginning...
First, a little info about me so you have some understanding about where I'm coming from:
I'm 25; FR is my first airline job. Yes, I paid for the TR, got paid almost nothing whilst line training and have been sent to a base in another country with almost no choice. I've got a Uni education, so don't consider myself to be a 'brain dead wee laddie' or any other deflamatry way we have been described in previous posts.
I can see that the way we are treated (in regards to BRK contracts, their lack of protection, the full month off unpaid, almost having to turn up before the start of your official duty time in order to be able to complete all the necessary paperwork and walk the half mile to the aircraft etc etc) is poor compared to the rest of the industry. I have friends in BA, bmi, flybe, easyJet, Luxair etc, and I am very envious of the transparent way that they are all dealt with.
However, there are things I like about this company. First off, almost everyone on the line is very nice, that goes for pilots and cabin crew. The majority of Captains are fantastic to fly with, you feel you can discuss any potential situation with them or ask them why they made certain decision and you'll get a frank and honest answer. The training within the company is a high standard, as is the maintenance.
Now onto the BALPA thing.
Personally, I wouldn't vote yes to BALPA. I believe that in the short term it would be disastrous for us and I believe this is because MO'L doesn't like to be threatened. I think BALPA's first step should have just have been recognition, not this whole 'dignity and respect' campaign, as it makes us assume we don't have any to start with. From what I can see, the campaign is too ambitious too soon.
I do believe that eventually (even without BALPA) the situation will come to a head, due to the fact that in the past, most used FR as a stepping stone for a first job/upgrade, only to move on later, happy to put up with the T&Cs in the short run. With the industry the way it is now, this is no longer an option.
Now these are just my opinions, I don't profess to know everything and admit I may well be wrong. I just hope that maybe the two extremes that seem to be arguing within this thread see that their arguments are putting many off us both options!
Edited to correct some spelling...
First, a little info about me so you have some understanding about where I'm coming from:
I'm 25; FR is my first airline job. Yes, I paid for the TR, got paid almost nothing whilst line training and have been sent to a base in another country with almost no choice. I've got a Uni education, so don't consider myself to be a 'brain dead wee laddie' or any other deflamatry way we have been described in previous posts.
I can see that the way we are treated (in regards to BRK contracts, their lack of protection, the full month off unpaid, almost having to turn up before the start of your official duty time in order to be able to complete all the necessary paperwork and walk the half mile to the aircraft etc etc) is poor compared to the rest of the industry. I have friends in BA, bmi, flybe, easyJet, Luxair etc, and I am very envious of the transparent way that they are all dealt with.
However, there are things I like about this company. First off, almost everyone on the line is very nice, that goes for pilots and cabin crew. The majority of Captains are fantastic to fly with, you feel you can discuss any potential situation with them or ask them why they made certain decision and you'll get a frank and honest answer. The training within the company is a high standard, as is the maintenance.
Now onto the BALPA thing.
Personally, I wouldn't vote yes to BALPA. I believe that in the short term it would be disastrous for us and I believe this is because MO'L doesn't like to be threatened. I think BALPA's first step should have just have been recognition, not this whole 'dignity and respect' campaign, as it makes us assume we don't have any to start with. From what I can see, the campaign is too ambitious too soon.
I do believe that eventually (even without BALPA) the situation will come to a head, due to the fact that in the past, most used FR as a stepping stone for a first job/upgrade, only to move on later, happy to put up with the T&Cs in the short run. With the industry the way it is now, this is no longer an option.
Now these are just my opinions, I don't profess to know everything and admit I may well be wrong. I just hope that maybe the two extremes that seem to be arguing within this thread see that their arguments are putting many off us both options!
Edited to correct some spelling...
Last edited by Dit; 8th Jul 2009 at 23:14.
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FR works on one basic principle: flexibility
A slightly different view on this is the closure of SOME UK bases which are not as profitable as desired, before any union recognition. If staff were unionised the closure of these bases would become a nightmare for FR. Unions would simply make FR's "flexibility" ( which has a HUGE impact on the workforce) non-existent. So apart from the threat of closure due to union recognition, there may well be some closures based on commercial decisions on the way.....so good luck to you all.
I as an outsider to FR , I WOULD have thought recognition was a good thing, but here is how it would play out. UK gets BALPA representation, FR agrees to "meet" on developing issues ( whichever those may be) sends a representatives to meetings, matter is taken back to FR who sit on it for months on end and do little about it. Eventually case goes to court, won or lost, it will be tied up in the justice system for months/years and in the meantime...pilots suffer the wrath of MOL. Looks like his will no matter what WILL be enforced and you're gonna have to suck it up! If this representation does not go ahead, I do not know how you will ever get yourselves organised and act as a one to fight for whatever issues come your way.
As someone posted earlier, this is the only way FR can operate and keep the cost of tickets down, the shareholders happy, the fat cats at the top in cigars and this can only be sustained if they maintain "flexibility". But beware, bases, WILL close if required, contracts are at present ( see BRK ) a joke ( yes I have seen them) salaries, rosters, other T&C's will continue to change to suit the FR way and there will be f@ck all the staff can do about it! I am sad to see this happen, as I stated a long time ago, this has an impact on the whole industry and I hope that other airlines ( although sinking lower and lower) will not try and compete with MOL in this race to the bottom, but I fear that as long as he gets away with it, other airlines will follow suit on some issues!
Hope it stops and soon...but hey, lets hope MOL loses the run of himself, one day he may just push it too far and this farce will end! I USED to think many moons ago Ryanair was something to be proud of, show the rest we had created something others did not and could not sustain....turns out its getting comical now and the more I read/see/talk to pilots/crews, the less pride I feel in what has been achieved by FR!
As another poster said, if you are new, get in, suck it up, work hard, get your hours and leave IF the industry picks up in a few years and offers you that chance! If not be prepared to take whatever they throw at you!
SO in a nutshell, yes Union recognition would have screwed up the whole FR system and people would have suffered, non union recognition will maintain the FR flexibility and staff will continue to suffer! You're screwed either way!
A slightly different view on this is the closure of SOME UK bases which are not as profitable as desired, before any union recognition. If staff were unionised the closure of these bases would become a nightmare for FR. Unions would simply make FR's "flexibility" ( which has a HUGE impact on the workforce) non-existent. So apart from the threat of closure due to union recognition, there may well be some closures based on commercial decisions on the way.....so good luck to you all.
I as an outsider to FR , I WOULD have thought recognition was a good thing, but here is how it would play out. UK gets BALPA representation, FR agrees to "meet" on developing issues ( whichever those may be) sends a representatives to meetings, matter is taken back to FR who sit on it for months on end and do little about it. Eventually case goes to court, won or lost, it will be tied up in the justice system for months/years and in the meantime...pilots suffer the wrath of MOL. Looks like his will no matter what WILL be enforced and you're gonna have to suck it up! If this representation does not go ahead, I do not know how you will ever get yourselves organised and act as a one to fight for whatever issues come your way.
As someone posted earlier, this is the only way FR can operate and keep the cost of tickets down, the shareholders happy, the fat cats at the top in cigars and this can only be sustained if they maintain "flexibility". But beware, bases, WILL close if required, contracts are at present ( see BRK ) a joke ( yes I have seen them) salaries, rosters, other T&C's will continue to change to suit the FR way and there will be f@ck all the staff can do about it! I am sad to see this happen, as I stated a long time ago, this has an impact on the whole industry and I hope that other airlines ( although sinking lower and lower) will not try and compete with MOL in this race to the bottom, but I fear that as long as he gets away with it, other airlines will follow suit on some issues!
Hope it stops and soon...but hey, lets hope MOL loses the run of himself, one day he may just push it too far and this farce will end! I USED to think many moons ago Ryanair was something to be proud of, show the rest we had created something others did not and could not sustain....turns out its getting comical now and the more I read/see/talk to pilots/crews, the less pride I feel in what has been achieved by FR!
As another poster said, if you are new, get in, suck it up, work hard, get your hours and leave IF the industry picks up in a few years and offers you that chance! If not be prepared to take whatever they throw at you!
SO in a nutshell, yes Union recognition would have screwed up the whole FR system and people would have suffered, non union recognition will maintain the FR flexibility and staff will continue to suffer! You're screwed either way!
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Double standards ?!
According to The Real Slim Shady
er, not true old chap. I have recently flown with several F/O's from EMA or floating contractors who have worked there recently. According to several sources you and your anti union stance are well known to all of them and they confirm that you do actively engage in anti union activities in company time.
Careful, look what happened to the last guy ........
"I have done everything from home in my spare time. If I canvas, I do so in my own time."
er, not true old chap. I have recently flown with several F/O's from EMA or floating contractors who have worked there recently. According to several sources you and your anti union stance are well known to all of them and they confirm that you do actively engage in anti union activities in company time.
Careful, look what happened to the last guy ........
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Vexed - Thanks, I agree with everything you've said, this company is only flexible because we are prepared to be flexible for each other, not for management.
I think things will have to get (even) worse before they get better, as we still need that reason to drive the pilots to think collectively. Only then does BALPA have a change of recognition.
TheOtherGuy - My apologies, it should have been 'defamatory'... I guess you've never made a mistake.
I think things will have to get (even) worse before they get better, as we still need that reason to drive the pilots to think collectively. Only then does BALPA have a change of recognition.
TheOtherGuy - My apologies, it should have been 'defamatory'... I guess you've never made a mistake.
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aldente,
don't believe everything you hear unless it comes from the source!
But just to stop you fretting, I had the good sense to clear my " activities" with the management first, just to make certain that it wouldn't be stepping on toes, breaking any rules or cause any problems for them, or my colleagues.
So the double standard is simply the process of asking permission first and accepting the response!
And in around 49 minutes time the result of the EMA ballot will be notified to the pilots and you can rest easy in your bed tonight; unless you want to fret about LTN or BHX or BRS.
don't believe everything you hear unless it comes from the source!
But just to stop you fretting, I had the good sense to clear my " activities" with the management first, just to make certain that it wouldn't be stepping on toes, breaking any rules or cause any problems for them, or my colleagues.
So the double standard is simply the process of asking permission first and accepting the response!
And in around 49 minutes time the result of the EMA ballot will be notified to the pilots and you can rest easy in your bed tonight; unless you want to fret about LTN or BHX or BRS.
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from the horses a**se!
I had the good sense to clear my " activities" with the management first
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A Thought
I have sampled postings on this thread and dare offer a suggestion: why not involve users and other interested parties in your campaign?
One contributor noted RYR policy might even qualify as a safety issue. That not only concerns SLF but anyone living upstream or downstream of runway that RYR uses. Worldwide.
After an industrial accident at the AZF chemicals plant in southern France, all manner of grassroots groupings got involved and approached local government. Local government found it useful to recognize them as leverage against AZF, a subsidiary of Total, the petroleum company. Negotiations then became trilateral: government regulators, AZF and the grassroots organizations.
On the one hand, there is the risk of killing the goose that lays the golden (well, gold-plated) paychecks, but on the other hand, if RYR personnel management is intelligent, it's an opportunity for RYR staff and users/airport area inhabitants to bond interpersonally. Which is a strategic investment in what beancounters call and sell as "goodwill".
If handled intelligently, it could evolve into a win/win/win deal.
(Feel free to bash this: I'm an English instructor at an university in rural China with a sideline in French/English translation of sociology: my concern is disinterested and am unlikely to become so much as RYR SLF. Have a great day folks!)
One contributor noted RYR policy might even qualify as a safety issue. That not only concerns SLF but anyone living upstream or downstream of runway that RYR uses. Worldwide.
After an industrial accident at the AZF chemicals plant in southern France, all manner of grassroots groupings got involved and approached local government. Local government found it useful to recognize them as leverage against AZF, a subsidiary of Total, the petroleum company. Negotiations then became trilateral: government regulators, AZF and the grassroots organizations.
On the one hand, there is the risk of killing the goose that lays the golden (well, gold-plated) paychecks, but on the other hand, if RYR personnel management is intelligent, it's an opportunity for RYR staff and users/airport area inhabitants to bond interpersonally. Which is a strategic investment in what beancounters call and sell as "goodwill".
If handled intelligently, it could evolve into a win/win/win deal.
(Feel free to bash this: I'm an English instructor at an university in rural China with a sideline in French/English translation of sociology: my concern is disinterested and am unlikely to become so much as RYR SLF. Have a great day folks!)
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Come now, my little redneck chum from the mangrove swamps of the Everglades, I have around 25 minutes until the result is published, so tell me where your warped opinions come from, and what gives you the right to comment, fuelled with so much vitriol, on something that has no bearing on your existence in the shallow end of the gene pool?
Are you so short of dignity and respect that you can't rustle up a valid argument? Are you and your tub thumping hard liners incapable of producing a manifesto to explain precisely what your myriad of 1% benefits, dignity and respect aside, will be?
Or do you just need to pimp for more money to support the lunches and bunfights of BALPA HQ and the company council members?
Are you so short of dignity and respect that you can't rustle up a valid argument? Are you and your tub thumping hard liners incapable of producing a manifesto to explain precisely what your myriad of 1% benefits, dignity and respect aside, will be?
Or do you just need to pimp for more money to support the lunches and bunfights of BALPA HQ and the company council members?
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Freebird beat me to it (and seems to have touched a raw nerve, judging by the response !) :-
Slim, not sure if "good sense" is the right phrase to use here, but doubtless the management will see you are well rewarded, either by way of a TRE job or your continued position as an ERC rep.
Never mind, as you say, it will all be over soon, and you and your other half can go out and celebrate this evening with your cabin crew friends .......
"I had the good sense to clear my " activities" with the management first"
Never mind, as you say, it will all be over soon, and you and your other half can go out and celebrate this evening with your cabin crew friends .......
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Aldente,
"rewards" like that are the preserve of BALPA and BALPA CC members: the vicious and licentious soldiery don't behave in that way. It is called integrity.
"rewards" like that are the preserve of BALPA and BALPA CC members: the vicious and licentious soldiery don't behave in that way. It is called integrity.
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So, at 11:42 we had 25 mins until the 'results' were published. I could hardly contain it in my pants but so far have managed, but now nearly 2 hours later we still have no word! Do we take this to mean EMA have voted in BALPA and Slim has shot himself?!!!?
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So by the end of today there is the possibility of 4 out of 10 bases voting against.
Dit - Your forgetting that on a regular ,lets say 4 sector day, you do approx 2.5 hrs work for free.1hr before departure/setting up,3 25min turnarounds and 15 mins after final sector.also delays being unpaid,now that bugs me.
Dit - Your forgetting that on a regular ,lets say 4 sector day, you do approx 2.5 hrs work for free.1hr before departure/setting up,3 25min turnarounds and 15 mins after final sector.also delays being unpaid,now that bugs me.
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Jeeeez we're approaching the 3 hour mark and still no word!! Has EMA emploded? Have BALPA been voted in and now EW has taken an uzi to the crew room? Has Slim exploded with the anticipation? Am I talking to myself?!!
Somebody, anybody, relieve the tension. The pants can't hold it much longer!!!
Somebody, anybody, relieve the tension. The pants can't hold it much longer!!!
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Interesting that Shady got permission to speak about the Unions to work "mates" during flight duties.
The permission bit must make it safer so, while another pilot without permission got the sack.
Nice bit of info for the court case.
The permission bit must make it safer so, while another pilot without permission got the sack.
Nice bit of info for the court case.
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Regarding rewards.
The two non-elected "ERC" puppets at DUB were normal line pilots before self appointment, and now they are line training captains.
No doubt will be a base captain or something up the slimy ladder before long.
The two non-elected "ERC" puppets at DUB were normal line pilots before self appointment, and now they are line training captains.
No doubt will be a base captain or something up the slimy ladder before long.
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Regarding rewards.
The two non-elected "ERC" puppets at DUB were normal line pilots before self appointment, and now they are line training captains.
No doubt will be a base captain or something up the slimy ladder before long.
The two non-elected "ERC" puppets at DUB were normal line pilots before self appointment, and now they are line training captains.
No doubt will be a base captain or something up the slimy ladder before long.
Just like getting an airline job in the first place, it's "who you know, not what you know". Still, do we know the outcome up in East Mids?