The problem with this industry is ?
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The problem with this industry is ?
The problem with this industry is not that the legacy carriers pay too much, but that the locos pay too little.
Maybe this isn't a widely held view but I believe that as recent incidents have shown flying remains an occupation that places very high demands on the individuals engaged in it, even in today's apparently highly automated environment.
I sincerely believe that it is entirely reasonable that airline pilots should be remunerated in line with other professionals such as Doctor's or lawyers so I personally feel that it is entirely reasonable that they should be paid in the £40k-£100k range with senior Captains earning from £100k to £150k in the final stages of their career. After all that's what politicians, Doctors, military officers, headmasters, IT consultants expect to earn.
Equally I think cabin crew should be paid in the £20-£50k range. I for example think a senior CSD on a jumbo with 17 staff and 400 pax to manage is easily worth £50-£60k when you put it in the context of the responsibility for safety, service, staff and as an ambassador for the company.
Factor in the demands on homelife, the physical burden of jet lag and fatigue and the possibility that you may one day face a life threatening situation and it seems to me that the likes of Easy and Ryan paying pilots £1000 a month on a 6 month contract with no job security, pension, holiday or sick pay is beyond a joke it is bordering on criminal. I have no idea what they pay their cabin staff but if that's what they pay their pilots I dread to think.
Anybody else have any views on this? Has the market gone mad? Do the public realise what is going on? Do they care that wages in such a safety critical industry are being pushed so low with the commensurate risk that the calibre of recruits may indeed have fallen? If the merchant banks can make the claim that they have to pay high salaries to attract the best does the same not apply to aviation?
I ask this question keen to hear what people think - I'm a relatively new entrant to flying though have worked in the industry for some 15 years and have family connection to the industry going back 45 years.
Desk-pilot
Maybe this isn't a widely held view but I believe that as recent incidents have shown flying remains an occupation that places very high demands on the individuals engaged in it, even in today's apparently highly automated environment.
I sincerely believe that it is entirely reasonable that airline pilots should be remunerated in line with other professionals such as Doctor's or lawyers so I personally feel that it is entirely reasonable that they should be paid in the £40k-£100k range with senior Captains earning from £100k to £150k in the final stages of their career. After all that's what politicians, Doctors, military officers, headmasters, IT consultants expect to earn.
Equally I think cabin crew should be paid in the £20-£50k range. I for example think a senior CSD on a jumbo with 17 staff and 400 pax to manage is easily worth £50-£60k when you put it in the context of the responsibility for safety, service, staff and as an ambassador for the company.
Factor in the demands on homelife, the physical burden of jet lag and fatigue and the possibility that you may one day face a life threatening situation and it seems to me that the likes of Easy and Ryan paying pilots £1000 a month on a 6 month contract with no job security, pension, holiday or sick pay is beyond a joke it is bordering on criminal. I have no idea what they pay their cabin staff but if that's what they pay their pilots I dread to think.
Anybody else have any views on this? Has the market gone mad? Do the public realise what is going on? Do they care that wages in such a safety critical industry are being pushed so low with the commensurate risk that the calibre of recruits may indeed have fallen? If the merchant banks can make the claim that they have to pay high salaries to attract the best does the same not apply to aviation?
I ask this question keen to hear what people think - I'm a relatively new entrant to flying though have worked in the industry for some 15 years and have family connection to the industry going back 45 years.
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I agree with what you are saying.
I do think that the average passenger do not care about anything else than the cost of his or her ticket. They assume that the current level of safety is given.
Another factor is that the ever declining conditions will only attract those who find them satisfactory. Whether that is those of the required standard is open to debate.
I certainly do believe that this industry have passed it's peak with regards to terms and conditions.
I do think that the average passenger do not care about anything else than the cost of his or her ticket. They assume that the current level of safety is given.
Another factor is that the ever declining conditions will only attract those who find them satisfactory. Whether that is those of the required standard is open to debate.
I certainly do believe that this industry have passed it's peak with regards to terms and conditions.
My feelings are that remuneration should be linked to the level of "risk management" - ie in terms of numbers of lives involved and cost of the hardware. For quite a few years now I have been of the opinion that, in general, pay for aircrew has been falling behind.
That said I also think that pilots are paid for their skill and expertise rather than the "lifestyle" and the number of hours they may have to work.
Years ago John Smith (the labour MP who didn't make it to PM because of his early death) said that Britain had become "the sweat shop of Europe".
Without naming names one is tempted to say that certain companies in aviation have become the "sweat shop of the airline industry".
That said I also think that pilots are paid for their skill and expertise rather than the "lifestyle" and the number of hours they may have to work.
Years ago John Smith (the labour MP who didn't make it to PM because of his early death) said that Britain had become "the sweat shop of Europe".
Without naming names one is tempted to say that certain companies in aviation have become the "sweat shop of the airline industry".
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Who cares aslong F** Wit "pilots" are prepared to pay to fly, there is no hope for any professional pilots
The job of an airline pilot is now equal to that of a train or bus driver
To compare the job of todays airline pilot where one can buy a job, to the profession of a surgeon/lawyer is an insult to all surgeons/lawyers.
When did you last fly with a university graduate?
The job of an airline pilot is now equal to that of a train or bus driver
To compare the job of todays airline pilot where one can buy a job, to the profession of a surgeon/lawyer is an insult to all surgeons/lawyers.
When did you last fly with a university graduate?
Last edited by mona lot; 1st Jun 2009 at 22:40.
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Pilots deserve their low salaries.
Pilots are their own worst enemy. They downgrade themselves. Inexplicable. I do not, but the viewpoint of colleagues and cabin staff is at variance to my honest perspectives. Political Correctness rules. Idiocy.
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Desk pilot! where did you get the idea that Easy or Ryan pay 1000 a month? I know 3 fo's at RYR who earnt in excess of 4k average a month during this last winter schedule and an fo at easy who earnt 3.2k average. Which i might add is more than I did in a well known european flag carrier.. and their contracts are in the order of 5 years for RYR, not sure about the easy though.
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Mona lot,
I fail to see how flying with someone with or without a uni degree makes any difference. Going to uni doesn't mean you know how to handle responsibility, and it certainly doesn't mean you are a good pilot! Considering how much money it costs you to go to university, it is far wiser to save that money and do something else which might benefit your career instead of spending a fortune and at the same time not earning properly.
To say that the job of an airline pilot is equal to that of a bus driver shows your complete lack of knowledge - not to mention that bus drivers don't need £50000 or £100000 set aside to train!!! The decisions made on a day to day basis by pilots can be very complex, in all honesty my guess is the decisions we make are more complex than those made by bus drivers!
The biggest problem is that very few airlines pay well at the beginning and with the current situation of people getting loans to pay for training they then find themselves struggling to pay back the money they have borrowed. People need to appreciate that if they are going to spend 75k on a course, they will probably need another 25k or more to live on whilst they are training AND they need to consider the possibility of not getting a job straight out of training.
Then they need to remember that no matter what they earn, they will spend more than half of every year working for nothing (it goes in tax). Add up what goes on car tax, income tax, council tax, VAT.... List goes on and on and on. So what you are actually left with for yourself is a small amount of what you have earned. With that small amount left over, are you able to pay for rent, food, petrol, AND pay back a massive loan?
I fail to see how flying with someone with or without a uni degree makes any difference. Going to uni doesn't mean you know how to handle responsibility, and it certainly doesn't mean you are a good pilot! Considering how much money it costs you to go to university, it is far wiser to save that money and do something else which might benefit your career instead of spending a fortune and at the same time not earning properly.
To say that the job of an airline pilot is equal to that of a bus driver shows your complete lack of knowledge - not to mention that bus drivers don't need £50000 or £100000 set aside to train!!! The decisions made on a day to day basis by pilots can be very complex, in all honesty my guess is the decisions we make are more complex than those made by bus drivers!
The biggest problem is that very few airlines pay well at the beginning and with the current situation of people getting loans to pay for training they then find themselves struggling to pay back the money they have borrowed. People need to appreciate that if they are going to spend 75k on a course, they will probably need another 25k or more to live on whilst they are training AND they need to consider the possibility of not getting a job straight out of training.
Then they need to remember that no matter what they earn, they will spend more than half of every year working for nothing (it goes in tax). Add up what goes on car tax, income tax, council tax, VAT.... List goes on and on and on. So what you are actually left with for yourself is a small amount of what you have earned. With that small amount left over, are you able to pay for rent, food, petrol, AND pay back a massive loan?
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the real problem here is that people believe all the rubbish they hear about ryan and easy.
"homelife" -
ryanair 5/4 roster, easy 5/4,5/3 - best roster pattern in the industry, no-one can argue with that. it is worth its weight in gold. if you have a family then you will want to be home every night with your children
"the physical burden of jet lag and fatigue" -
jet lag? longest sectors with ryr is around 4.5 hours. ezy may be slightly more having taken on some gb sectors. fatigue? some long days yes, but then still considerably less when compared to the fatigue from long/medium haul ops.
"Easy and Ryan paying pilots £1000 a month on a 6 month contract with no job security" -
can't speak for ezy pilots but all my mates with ryr take home between 3-4k a month as f/o's. 6 month contract? never heard of one. job security? recently paddypower.com issued odds on the next airline going bust. ryanair were level with air france, ba and lufthansa with the longest odds. bet your airline had shorter odds.
"no pension, holiday or sick pay is beyond a joke it is bordering on criminal" -
i have a £5000 matched pension contribution per annum. one whole month off per year (july this year, paid, can't wait thank you very much) plus 10 days paid leave available as adhoc. one of my friends had 4 months off last year sick and was paid throughout that period.
"I have no idea what they pay their cabin staff but if that's what they pay their pilots I dread to think." -
your comments on cabin crew are a little mixed up. i'm not sure if you are familiar with the salaries of different airlines, but the two "locos" you mentioned actually pay better than a few of the large airlines. have you ever spoken to a virgin cabin crew? no, because sadly they're probably busy at their second job.
yes i have a view. it's a shame, but that's the way the market is. the public probably do realise what is going on, but, no. they don't care. same way i'm sure you don't care if i get a bus ticket cheaper due to reasons behind the scenes.
again, it would appear they don't care. look at ryr's pax loads over the last 5 years. finally, you have alot to learn about what your atpl means and what supply and demand is. if you've got a license, you can be employed to fly a plane. if there's lots of you and demand is low then you can forget your £150,000 per annum salary.
not quite sure whether you're having a laugh trying to wind people up, spreading rumours or you're new to the right hand seat and have been fed this by one of those captains who wishes it were all true so he'd have a reason to moan about low cost ops... but whichever of the above is true, your post is unfounded rubbish.
we all wish it were still the glory days, but people like you have to face up to it - passengers just don't get dressed up in their sunday best to travel by air anymore.
Factor in the demands on homelife, the physical burden of jet lag and fatigue and the possibility that you may one day face a life threatening situation and it seems to me that the likes of Easy and Ryan paying pilots £1000 a month on a 6 month contract with no job security, pension, holiday or sick pay is beyond a joke it is bordering on criminal. I have no idea what they pay their cabin staff but if that's what they pay their pilots I dread to think.
"homelife" -
ryanair 5/4 roster, easy 5/4,5/3 - best roster pattern in the industry, no-one can argue with that. it is worth its weight in gold. if you have a family then you will want to be home every night with your children
"the physical burden of jet lag and fatigue" -
jet lag? longest sectors with ryr is around 4.5 hours. ezy may be slightly more having taken on some gb sectors. fatigue? some long days yes, but then still considerably less when compared to the fatigue from long/medium haul ops.
"Easy and Ryan paying pilots £1000 a month on a 6 month contract with no job security" -
can't speak for ezy pilots but all my mates with ryr take home between 3-4k a month as f/o's. 6 month contract? never heard of one. job security? recently paddypower.com issued odds on the next airline going bust. ryanair were level with air france, ba and lufthansa with the longest odds. bet your airline had shorter odds.
"no pension, holiday or sick pay is beyond a joke it is bordering on criminal" -
i have a £5000 matched pension contribution per annum. one whole month off per year (july this year, paid, can't wait thank you very much) plus 10 days paid leave available as adhoc. one of my friends had 4 months off last year sick and was paid throughout that period.
"I have no idea what they pay their cabin staff but if that's what they pay their pilots I dread to think." -
your comments on cabin crew are a little mixed up. i'm not sure if you are familiar with the salaries of different airlines, but the two "locos" you mentioned actually pay better than a few of the large airlines. have you ever spoken to a virgin cabin crew? no, because sadly they're probably busy at their second job.
Anybody else have any views on this? Has the market gone mad? Do the public realise what is going on?
Do they care that wages in such a safety critical industry are being pushed so low with the commensurate risk that the calibre of recruits may indeed have fallen? If the merchant banks can make the claim that they have to pay high salaries to attract the best does the same not apply to aviation?
not quite sure whether you're having a laugh trying to wind people up, spreading rumours or you're new to the right hand seat and have been fed this by one of those captains who wishes it were all true so he'd have a reason to moan about low cost ops... but whichever of the above is true, your post is unfounded rubbish.
I'm a relatively new entrant to flying though have worked in the industry for some 15 years and have family connection to the industry going back 45 years.
Im not in favour of the Flexiwings scheme,far from it , but lets just put it in perspective.
They number around 70 out of a total F/O workforce which is not far of a 1000.
The rest of us on TRSS/Direct Entry average around anything from £3000 to £4000 a month ( 5000 if your lucky enough to be on an italian contract at the moment ! )
In other words around about the industry norm.
I sincerley hope the Flexiwing scheme is a temporary fix to the economic times we live in , and a return to the heady days of 2006 when CTC could'nt get enough people through the door fast enough ,and on permanent contracts return swiftly.
They number around 70 out of a total F/O workforce which is not far of a 1000.
The rest of us on TRSS/Direct Entry average around anything from £3000 to £4000 a month ( 5000 if your lucky enough to be on an italian contract at the moment ! )
In other words around about the industry norm.
I sincerley hope the Flexiwing scheme is a temporary fix to the economic times we live in , and a return to the heady days of 2006 when CTC could'nt get enough people through the door fast enough ,and on permanent contracts return swiftly.
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Mona Lot - I am a university graduate and have just flown a 5-day stint with easyJet. Three out of those 5 days were with CTC trainees and 2 were with young, line-trained FOs (< 30 years' old). All 5 of the pilots I flew with in that time were University graduates. Not every pilot I fly with is a university graduate but the majority are.
For what it is worth, my original degree was in Electronics and Electrical Engineering. I personally found the sheer volume of information required to pass the 2 groups of ATPL exams more demanding than my engineering degree. Not everyone's experience I am sure, but that was certainly the case with me.
I also concur with all of Right Touch's sentiments.
For what it is worth, my original degree was in Electronics and Electrical Engineering. I personally found the sheer volume of information required to pass the 2 groups of ATPL exams more demanding than my engineering degree. Not everyone's experience I am sure, but that was certainly the case with me.
I also concur with all of Right Touch's sentiments.
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Maybe this isn't a widely held view but I believe that as recent incidents have shown flying remains an occupation that places very high demands on the individuals engaged in it, even in today's apparently highly automated environment.
Equally I think cabin crew should be paid in the £20-£50k range. I for example think a senior CSD on a jumbo with 17 staff and 400 pax to manage is easily worth £50-£60k when you put it in the context of the responsibility for safety, service, staff and as an ambassador for the company.
Lack of unity;self-centred approach to career structure coupled with management style akin to Victorian mill owners and you have the recipe for 'shot-in -foot' life of the average airline pilot in contemporary times.
Original post is subjectively correct and how the pilot career has deteriorated to such an extent is complex.The obvious quote is 'market forces' and that is true to a degree.The influence of Balpa,while generally beneficial is tied up in politics as well.However,they do tend to curb the enthusiastic excesses of the modern 'manager' equipped as he/she is with modern business -speak,a degree in tourism from the hallowed halls of Milton-Keynes university and generally hopeless.The enthusiastic excesses and incompetence that has got the world into such a financial mess."Fuel hedging anyone;oh we cocked that up let's take the pilot's breakfast away."
Original post is subjectively correct and how the pilot career has deteriorated to such an extent is complex.The obvious quote is 'market forces' and that is true to a degree.The influence of Balpa,while generally beneficial is tied up in politics as well.However,they do tend to curb the enthusiastic excesses of the modern 'manager' equipped as he/she is with modern business -speak,a degree in tourism from the hallowed halls of Milton-Keynes university and generally hopeless.The enthusiastic excesses and incompetence that has got the world into such a financial mess."Fuel hedging anyone;oh we cocked that up let's take the pilot's breakfast away."
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Olster is spot on.
I'm convinced a generation of pilots have been brainwashed into lowering their expectations.
Witness the individual who evidently considers his 'matched' pension contribution of £5000 as adequate - it's not - abet probably far better than many of his flightdeck colleagues in his company, e.g. cadets/contractors etc.
The "I'm alright Jack" tendency will catch up with all of us in the end. Airline managers know this well and take advantage of it, despite the sterling efforts of BALPA and the other pilot associations.
We should care as much about the lot of the most junior within our companies as the most senior, because both of them will effect our lot in the end. One end is the bedrock and the other is the peak - most of us are somewhere in between.
I'm convinced a generation of pilots have been brainwashed into lowering their expectations.
Witness the individual who evidently considers his 'matched' pension contribution of £5000 as adequate - it's not - abet probably far better than many of his flightdeck colleagues in his company, e.g. cadets/contractors etc.
The "I'm alright Jack" tendency will catch up with all of us in the end. Airline managers know this well and take advantage of it, despite the sterling efforts of BALPA and the other pilot associations.
We should care as much about the lot of the most junior within our companies as the most senior, because both of them will effect our lot in the end. One end is the bedrock and the other is the peak - most of us are somewhere in between.
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There have a been a number of comments about how pilots have degraded their own T&Cs over the years, and I think that is absolutely correct. I don't think BALPA have helped one iota, and why they didn't leap on airlines when they began charging new hire pilots for type ratings I have no idea. Pilots as individuals are pretty straight no nonsense sort of people, but do not act well as a group. That is one side of my point.
The other side is that aviation as an industry is not prepared to invest in itself, especially in it's people. There are no scholarships available, no cadetships, no financial investment in new pilots by the industry. Any money that is available is from private sources, most often from the aspiring pilot himself. Somehow the supply of pilots continues to satisfy the industry's needs, and the argument of supply and demand applies in the sense that airlines don't need to pay out whilst they can suck the lifeblood of other people's investments.
As pilots we need to either insist on more financial help from airlines at the training stage, or better salaries (and no self-sponsored type rating schemes) once working in the industry. We need to put pressure on out company councils, and union representatives, and airline mangers to increase salaries, or invest in cadetships. It's up to us to stand up with a bit of pride, or to accept the situation, and stop moaning.
The other side is that aviation as an industry is not prepared to invest in itself, especially in it's people. There are no scholarships available, no cadetships, no financial investment in new pilots by the industry. Any money that is available is from private sources, most often from the aspiring pilot himself. Somehow the supply of pilots continues to satisfy the industry's needs, and the argument of supply and demand applies in the sense that airlines don't need to pay out whilst they can suck the lifeblood of other people's investments.
As pilots we need to either insist on more financial help from airlines at the training stage, or better salaries (and no self-sponsored type rating schemes) once working in the industry. We need to put pressure on out company councils, and union representatives, and airline mangers to increase salaries, or invest in cadetships. It's up to us to stand up with a bit of pride, or to accept the situation, and stop moaning.
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Interesting mix of responses
Well, what an interesting cross section of views. While I'm glad to hear that there are many guys and gals in Easy and Ryan who are earning good salaries I would make the point that those good salaries are no longer available to anyone joining now in the short to medium term. The only way into Easy is Flexycrew and that pays £1000 a month with little prospect of being turned into a full time contract of employment as things stand.
As for Ryan well it's hard to make out what the likely prospects of a new entrant are but from the information on PPJN it would seem you're paid £35 per block hour until completion of line check and then sector pay after completion of line training is due to reduce to £18 per block hour and there is no basic salary for the first 12-23 months so if you assume 600 hours a year that's £11 400 a year or about what a checkout operative earns at Tesco.
I suppose I'm reflecting on how far salaries have fallen. It looks to me as if the basic salary of £17000 at Ryan only kicks in some 2-3 years in and from then on things get a fair bit better but you still don't have any holiday or sick pay, pension and are paying for sims, hotels etc.
So in conclusion the starting salary for an airline pilot in the two leading locos would seem to be either £11k a year at Ryan or £6k in 6 months at Easy (unless the figures are wildly inaccurate on ppjn). If this is the case then I stand by my original assertion that things have got out of hand and no other profession has seen its terms and conditions eroded so rapidly in the past decade.
Interesting to reflect that in 1991 the BA Cadet entrants started on £26 500 after having had all training paid!
Desk-pilot
As for Ryan well it's hard to make out what the likely prospects of a new entrant are but from the information on PPJN it would seem you're paid £35 per block hour until completion of line check and then sector pay after completion of line training is due to reduce to £18 per block hour and there is no basic salary for the first 12-23 months so if you assume 600 hours a year that's £11 400 a year or about what a checkout operative earns at Tesco.
I suppose I'm reflecting on how far salaries have fallen. It looks to me as if the basic salary of £17000 at Ryan only kicks in some 2-3 years in and from then on things get a fair bit better but you still don't have any holiday or sick pay, pension and are paying for sims, hotels etc.
So in conclusion the starting salary for an airline pilot in the two leading locos would seem to be either £11k a year at Ryan or £6k in 6 months at Easy (unless the figures are wildly inaccurate on ppjn). If this is the case then I stand by my original assertion that things have got out of hand and no other profession has seen its terms and conditions eroded so rapidly in the past decade.
Interesting to reflect that in 1991 the BA Cadet entrants started on £26 500 after having had all training paid!
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Jet lag/fatigue
BongleBear,
Alas you do not understand jet lag,you say
"the physical burden of jet lag and fatigue" -
jet lag? longest sectors with ryr is around 4.5 hours. ezy may be slightly more having taken on some gb sectors. fatigue? some long days yes, but then still considerably less when compared to the fatigue from long/medium haul ops.
However it is not the length of the sectors or the number of time zones you cross that causes jet lag/fatigue on the easy 5/3/5/4 roster pattern. It is the time shift that occurs with getting up for five days on the trot at 3.30-5.00. This pushes you 3-4 time zones east by the end of your block. You then have three days off to pull your internal body clock back to local before you start your five days of lates pushing your body clock 3-4 time zones west or more if you have a late weekend duty finishing at 1am or latter. You may still be in your own bed every night but you are not in it at the same time every night. Its not classical jet lag but it is fatigue caused by moving your body clock 8 hours every few weeks, in addition to the long 4 sector days.
Alas you do not understand jet lag,you say
"the physical burden of jet lag and fatigue" -
jet lag? longest sectors with ryr is around 4.5 hours. ezy may be slightly more having taken on some gb sectors. fatigue? some long days yes, but then still considerably less when compared to the fatigue from long/medium haul ops.
However it is not the length of the sectors or the number of time zones you cross that causes jet lag/fatigue on the easy 5/3/5/4 roster pattern. It is the time shift that occurs with getting up for five days on the trot at 3.30-5.00. This pushes you 3-4 time zones east by the end of your block. You then have three days off to pull your internal body clock back to local before you start your five days of lates pushing your body clock 3-4 time zones west or more if you have a late weekend duty finishing at 1am or latter. You may still be in your own bed every night but you are not in it at the same time every night. Its not classical jet lag but it is fatigue caused by moving your body clock 8 hours every few weeks, in addition to the long 4 sector days.
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Flap15
"However it is not the length of the sectors or the number of time zones you cross that causes jet lag/fatigue on the easy 5/3/5/4 roster pattern. It is the time shift that occurs with getting up for five days on the trot at 3.30-5.00. This pushes you 3-4 time zones east by the end of your block"
Possibly I have a misunderstanding of jet lag too, thought that it was from being out of sync with destination and arrival time-zones?
Don't you generally in the lo-co world, be it Easy or Ryanair, start and finish in the same place?
Admittedly early starts can throw you out of your circadian rhythm but isn't jet lag in this case as far as I'm aware, or do milkmen suffer from float lag?
"However it is not the length of the sectors or the number of time zones you cross that causes jet lag/fatigue on the easy 5/3/5/4 roster pattern. It is the time shift that occurs with getting up for five days on the trot at 3.30-5.00. This pushes you 3-4 time zones east by the end of your block"
Possibly I have a misunderstanding of jet lag too, thought that it was from being out of sync with destination and arrival time-zones?
Don't you generally in the lo-co world, be it Easy or Ryanair, start and finish in the same place?
Admittedly early starts can throw you out of your circadian rhythm but isn't jet lag in this case as far as I'm aware, or do milkmen suffer from float lag?
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Firestorm, Barden (in particular, although most others also!)
I doff (sp?) my hat to you, sirs. Both absolutely accurate, articulate and sadly showing how industry has declined in that the view you have espoused is so minority.
I spent 15 years working in industry before [trying to] career change in the last three years. Having had that amount of management experience, it's laughable how easy it would be to divide the pilot body and impose whatever the hell you want on them. Collective agreement from within the pilot body is absolutely necessary, perhaps more so now than ever, if things are to remain in stasis, let alone improve. But sadly I don't think it will happen.
I menitoned in another thread, I'm just not sure what BALPA does. This isn't to say I think they're not doing stuff, but I don't see evidenced the positive results....indeed, the only things that seem to be happening is the downward spiral....as Firestorm said, surely when SSTR first came around none of the existing crews were all for it, so why wasn't it stamped on there and then. What about line training? Without wishing to go tangentially off and hijack the thread about BALPA, all I see is training costs going up and up for new entrants, SSTR and line training becoming the norm and nothing being done, whilst older pilots almost go on a witch hunt for anyone that won't sign up to BALPA straight away....It would be a much easier sell if there were obvious victories directly attributable to them easily viewable. Collective protection of the industry is now needed more than ever, yet it seems perhaps further away than ever as people seek more and more to protect what they personally have.
Sad.
I doff (sp?) my hat to you, sirs. Both absolutely accurate, articulate and sadly showing how industry has declined in that the view you have espoused is so minority.
I spent 15 years working in industry before [trying to] career change in the last three years. Having had that amount of management experience, it's laughable how easy it would be to divide the pilot body and impose whatever the hell you want on them. Collective agreement from within the pilot body is absolutely necessary, perhaps more so now than ever, if things are to remain in stasis, let alone improve. But sadly I don't think it will happen.
I menitoned in another thread, I'm just not sure what BALPA does. This isn't to say I think they're not doing stuff, but I don't see evidenced the positive results....indeed, the only things that seem to be happening is the downward spiral....as Firestorm said, surely when SSTR first came around none of the existing crews were all for it, so why wasn't it stamped on there and then. What about line training? Without wishing to go tangentially off and hijack the thread about BALPA, all I see is training costs going up and up for new entrants, SSTR and line training becoming the norm and nothing being done, whilst older pilots almost go on a witch hunt for anyone that won't sign up to BALPA straight away....It would be a much easier sell if there were obvious victories directly attributable to them easily viewable. Collective protection of the industry is now needed more than ever, yet it seems perhaps further away than ever as people seek more and more to protect what they personally have.
Sad.
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BongleBear - again you fail to see beyond your own nose.
Jetlag/Fatigue - Jetlag to a lesser extent but lowcost flying is now recognised as the most the most exhausting. Since April I have done almost exclusively 5 earlies then 5 lates save a few days holiday and standby. I am a young man but I find myself extremely tired.
The roster is designed to keep Brookfield contractors who commute, if it goes to 5/3 or 5/2 as we were threatened most commuters would leave within the week.
Paddypower is a bookmaker - the bet they offer is a bit of crack as they say.
Pension - Stakeholder pension scheme - worthless and very low risk meaning absolutely no return on your money. most people I know who are in the scheme have less money in it than they have paid in.
Annual Leave - You got lucky with July, however as a copilot your basic salary will be no more than 2300 pounds net, so you are down a max of 2250 in sector pay for the month. (for Captain it is 3600 and 2450 in sector pay) You will receive 60 a day to compensate however you are still down.
You have no flexibility in choosing your annual leave, we are at the behest of the rostering department who have no rules and no respect.
Imagine you ended up with February off ?
Rabbit all you like about how bad Ryanair is not but you are wrong. You would a whole lot better if you signed the petition and joined the 500+ other Pilots who have also.
Try to observe the company as someone from the outside rather than a chap who seems to be getting his way at the moment.
Jetlag/Fatigue - Jetlag to a lesser extent but lowcost flying is now recognised as the most the most exhausting. Since April I have done almost exclusively 5 earlies then 5 lates save a few days holiday and standby. I am a young man but I find myself extremely tired.
The roster is designed to keep Brookfield contractors who commute, if it goes to 5/3 or 5/2 as we were threatened most commuters would leave within the week.
Paddypower is a bookmaker - the bet they offer is a bit of crack as they say.
Pension - Stakeholder pension scheme - worthless and very low risk meaning absolutely no return on your money. most people I know who are in the scheme have less money in it than they have paid in.
Annual Leave - You got lucky with July, however as a copilot your basic salary will be no more than 2300 pounds net, so you are down a max of 2250 in sector pay for the month. (for Captain it is 3600 and 2450 in sector pay) You will receive 60 a day to compensate however you are still down.
You have no flexibility in choosing your annual leave, we are at the behest of the rostering department who have no rules and no respect.
Imagine you ended up with February off ?
Rabbit all you like about how bad Ryanair is not but you are wrong. You would a whole lot better if you signed the petition and joined the 500+ other Pilots who have also.
Try to observe the company as someone from the outside rather than a chap who seems to be getting his way at the moment.