The problem with this industry is ?
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JennyB
The circadian rythem upset upset transiting from earlies to lates in LoCo ops ammounts to the same thing as jet lag, ie you are awake when you want to be asleep and vice versa. Its just more noticable with true jet lag since the sun is so out of phase with your body clock. In addition its sleep deprivation since its very hard to go to sleep at 8 in the evening (I dont try anymore) before an early or remain asleep when the family is getting up for school.
All is fatiguing and gets worse with age. I watched my father who was with British Caledonian and then BA on long haul suffer more and more as he got older. How I will be in ten years having already done 8 with easy only time will tell. So as soon as the boys have finished Uni its part time for me.
The circadian rythem upset upset transiting from earlies to lates in LoCo ops ammounts to the same thing as jet lag, ie you are awake when you want to be asleep and vice versa. Its just more noticable with true jet lag since the sun is so out of phase with your body clock. In addition its sleep deprivation since its very hard to go to sleep at 8 in the evening (I dont try anymore) before an early or remain asleep when the family is getting up for school.
All is fatiguing and gets worse with age. I watched my father who was with British Caledonian and then BA on long haul suffer more and more as he got older. How I will be in ten years having already done 8 with easy only time will tell. So as soon as the boys have finished Uni its part time for me.
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"the physical burden of jet lag and fatigue" -
jet lag? longest sectors with ryr is around 4.5 hours. ezy may be slightly more having taken on some gb sectors. fatigue? some long days yes, but then still considerably less when compared to the fatigue from long/medium haul ops.
jet lag? longest sectors with ryr is around 4.5 hours. ezy may be slightly more having taken on some gb sectors. fatigue? some long days yes, but then still considerably less when compared to the fatigue from long/medium haul ops.
Apart from a few retired BA long haulers, I never met many pilots who deliberately left a long haul company in order to 'enjoy' 4 sectors per day. The typical background in LoCo's is flight school -> turbo prop -> LoCo, with most cadets skipping the turbo prop bit and DEC's coming from some bankrupt charter airline.
If the above mentioned was true, long haulers would be banging at LoCo's doors, which is hardly the case. To the contrary, in the past a lot of LoCo F/O's have left for BA, VAA etc and have seen a 100% improvement in their quality of life.
As is often the case with lies and propaganda, if you repeat it often enough, people eventually believe it.
When it comes to Terms and Conditions you have to consider the complete package when making comparisons.
You might be paid "quite well" but if you have to buy your own uniform, pay for your own car park pass and airport ID, take your own food and drink to work with you (ie its not provided by the company and the drinks might have to be paid for at airport prices in the terminal), pay your own travel expenses and hotac for simulator details, pay for your own loss of licence and/or private health insurance and/or a personal pension scheme, pay for your own licence and medical renewals etc etc as opposed to those employed by companies which include all or some of these items, then maybe you're not so well off as you think! (And then there are the issues of leave and sick pay!).
Be careful that you are not comparing apples with oranges!
You might be paid "quite well" but if you have to buy your own uniform, pay for your own car park pass and airport ID, take your own food and drink to work with you (ie its not provided by the company and the drinks might have to be paid for at airport prices in the terminal), pay your own travel expenses and hotac for simulator details, pay for your own loss of licence and/or private health insurance and/or a personal pension scheme, pay for your own licence and medical renewals etc etc as opposed to those employed by companies which include all or some of these items, then maybe you're not so well off as you think! (And then there are the issues of leave and sick pay!).
Be careful that you are not comparing apples with oranges!
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Ok, I'll have a crack at this question.
The problem with this industry is entirely the fault and within the gift of the pilots in it.
By clinging to unionisation, yet for some reason never using the option to strike, I'd argue you could be seen as a soft touch. Draw the line in the sand early, show some intransigence and bloody mindedness and the end result will not be that the airline whips the dust cover off of the crewless airliner it has waiting in the hangar in case you spit out your dummy.
While I'm at it and as the thread seems to have moved to cover those at the bottom being poorly paid. Or perhaps less kindly, cadets on pisspoor contracts getting pisspoor money. How about recognising that they might be in the union too? I'd always assumed that it sort of worked alongside the NATO rules of engagement, that an attack on one precipitated defence by all the others.
Seemingly not. Airline management does what it does and it should be no surprise that there are unscrupulous elements that seek to take advantage. The real disgrace is that those of us who don't have to suffer the thick end of the wedge don't even feel upset about it. So I'd appeal to selfishness, which seems to be the only thing that everyone has in common.
You're next.
The problem with this industry is entirely the fault and within the gift of the pilots in it.
By clinging to unionisation, yet for some reason never using the option to strike, I'd argue you could be seen as a soft touch. Draw the line in the sand early, show some intransigence and bloody mindedness and the end result will not be that the airline whips the dust cover off of the crewless airliner it has waiting in the hangar in case you spit out your dummy.
While I'm at it and as the thread seems to have moved to cover those at the bottom being poorly paid. Or perhaps less kindly, cadets on pisspoor contracts getting pisspoor money. How about recognising that they might be in the union too? I'd always assumed that it sort of worked alongside the NATO rules of engagement, that an attack on one precipitated defence by all the others.
Seemingly not. Airline management does what it does and it should be no surprise that there are unscrupulous elements that seek to take advantage. The real disgrace is that those of us who don't have to suffer the thick end of the wedge don't even feel upset about it. So I'd appeal to selfishness, which seems to be the only thing that everyone has in common.
You're next.
Great one
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DtH,
You haven't met any of our ex-Emirates TC's then?
Apart from a few retired BA long haulers, I never met many pilots who deliberately left a long haul company in order to 'enjoy' 4 sectors per day.
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Airlines, and specially locost have done their upmost to prevent the EU from preparing a good FTL for pilots. THAT makes pilots tired, we are an unprotected species. EASA has had (another) scientific research done on the new FTL and fatique by a swiss company called Moebus. The final outcome is devistating for subpart Q, max duties are too long at night and rest with an augmented crew of no value in economy, etc, etc. Airlines are outraged at this and do everything in their power to minimise the scientific basis of the report.
Safety (to the beancounters) is very important,........as long as it doesn't cost too much. Something has to change soon I think
GP76
Safety (to the beancounters) is very important,........as long as it doesn't cost too much. Something has to change soon I think
GP76
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Get regulators onside (EASA and FAA licensing)
My letter from the CAA this week prompted me to have a look at EASA impact on FAA and N reg in Europe.....and there seems to be much erroneous debate here, (although I can really understand the frustration)
Elsewhere on this site, comparison with doctors trained outside the UK, for instance, overlooked the statistic that non-UK trained doctors are 4 times more likely to be "struck off". (Source: The Telegraph April 11th)
There is much comment agreeing that EASA's remit should focus on safety, but I would ask how this can be achieved when so many pilots fall outside their governance?
(Source: Emmanuel Davidson of AOPA France ...more than 10,000 European pilots holding FAA licenses flying in Europe.
Nobody has sensibly defined exactly why there are so many "flag-of-convenience" operators in Europe, but it shows huge naivety to suggest that "this is not for very compelling financial advantages", (Do an internet trawl of the various companies offering this service and read....SAVE MONEY)...so the comments on protectionism don't stand up.
Most pilot's who have studied JAA ATPL will have met other working pilots who are converting / adding the exams whilst working so it can be done.
Ultimately, when it comes to regulators on the scale of EASA there is no point in joining in with arguments which only reinforce the changes.
What is needed is debate which could move towards a level commercial playing field, where pilot training gains the recognition it deserves and where the regulator absolutely condemns and forbids the current regime..... where operators expect individuals to pay for type ratings and pay for uniforms, have their normal EU employment rights ignored and pay to have the privilege of working for them a etc etc.
Some commentary suggest that unionisation is to blame. Good point. (look at what individual unioniastion is doing to BA) but misses the big picture
The pilot community need really strong representation to work with regulators, on a global basis, to regulate against practices which skew recruitment solely in favor of people who can / will pay and move right back to a competence based system where good hard working pilots, with a modest investment, will be supported in their careers. We need to get the regulators onside, and stop picking petty battles.And we need grizzly, hard, senior pilots who have served their time to represent this and tell it like it is.
Elsewhere on this site, comparison with doctors trained outside the UK, for instance, overlooked the statistic that non-UK trained doctors are 4 times more likely to be "struck off". (Source: The Telegraph April 11th)
There is much comment agreeing that EASA's remit should focus on safety, but I would ask how this can be achieved when so many pilots fall outside their governance?
(Source: Emmanuel Davidson of AOPA France ...more than 10,000 European pilots holding FAA licenses flying in Europe.
Nobody has sensibly defined exactly why there are so many "flag-of-convenience" operators in Europe, but it shows huge naivety to suggest that "this is not for very compelling financial advantages", (Do an internet trawl of the various companies offering this service and read....SAVE MONEY)...so the comments on protectionism don't stand up.
Most pilot's who have studied JAA ATPL will have met other working pilots who are converting / adding the exams whilst working so it can be done.
Ultimately, when it comes to regulators on the scale of EASA there is no point in joining in with arguments which only reinforce the changes.
What is needed is debate which could move towards a level commercial playing field, where pilot training gains the recognition it deserves and where the regulator absolutely condemns and forbids the current regime..... where operators expect individuals to pay for type ratings and pay for uniforms, have their normal EU employment rights ignored and pay to have the privilege of working for them a etc etc.
Some commentary suggest that unionisation is to blame. Good point. (look at what individual unioniastion is doing to BA) but misses the big picture
The pilot community need really strong representation to work with regulators, on a global basis, to regulate against practices which skew recruitment solely in favor of people who can / will pay and move right back to a competence based system where good hard working pilots, with a modest investment, will be supported in their careers. We need to get the regulators onside, and stop picking petty battles.And we need grizzly, hard, senior pilots who have served their time to represent this and tell it like it is.
