Robert Mugabe "PB" in Ryanair gets Pilots to Vote YES
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I would actually like to try and build bridges in the future with PB. If the recognition campaign is successfull. I think it will spell the end of many of the current commercial management. And good ridance to many of them.
PB though, whilst having made mistakes, and never returning phone calls he always promises he will, is probably being forced to do the bidding of MOL, He is in essence an OK guy being heavily leaned on by MOL. Probably a more reluctant participent.
Whereas DOB and EW would willingly sell anyone or anything to protect there own bonus.
If there was a shake up, upstairs I would give PB the benefit of the doubt as of today.
You are told to accept an un-negotiated contract reduction and you do. reluctantly.
PB is told to say this or that (somebody elses directive) and he does....reluctantly??
PB though, whilst having made mistakes, and never returning phone calls he always promises he will, is probably being forced to do the bidding of MOL, He is in essence an OK guy being heavily leaned on by MOL. Probably a more reluctant participent.
Whereas DOB and EW would willingly sell anyone or anything to protect there own bonus.
If there was a shake up, upstairs I would give PB the benefit of the doubt as of today.
You are told to accept an un-negotiated contract reduction and you do. reluctantly.
PB is told to say this or that (somebody elses directive) and he does....reluctantly??
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Did'nt mean to insult you rubik101, mildly or otherwise. Just don't agree that it's feasable for all the fr stn pilots to be laid off without severe upset to passengers, and I don't feel that it's constructive to those considering adding their 4 penneth to any petition to suggest it is.
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I didn't suggest that anyone should not sign the petition, far from it. I merely highlighted the possible outcome should the result be industrial action. I am merely trying to play devil's advocate here and point out some of the shortcomings to 'striking'.
Upsetting passengers is the very least of MOL's concerns. If STN, or any other base, vote for Union recognition, MOL will close the base, make the pilots redundant and move all the aircraft to other bases. Then he will invite all the out of work pilots, and there are a lot of them about right now, to join RYR, probably on a lower salary, at the now expanded bases.
How long do you think it will be before a trickle becomes a stream becomes a flood to get the last job remaining before they all go? You want a job, it's in LPL and be happy to have one at all. Now back to work, boys!
Sorry to be a pessimist, but reality sucks.
Aldente, it's really none of your business; but I left to live with my new wife in her native country.
Upsetting passengers is the very least of MOL's concerns. If STN, or any other base, vote for Union recognition, MOL will close the base, make the pilots redundant and move all the aircraft to other bases. Then he will invite all the out of work pilots, and there are a lot of them about right now, to join RYR, probably on a lower salary, at the now expanded bases.
How long do you think it will be before a trickle becomes a stream becomes a flood to get the last job remaining before they all go? You want a job, it's in LPL and be happy to have one at all. Now back to work, boys!
Sorry to be a pessimist, but reality sucks.
Aldente, it's really none of your business; but I left to live with my new wife in her native country.
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Monarch T+C's are good because the membership in that airline is very strong and determined to keep there T+C's as good as they are. The Monarch BALPA Company Council also works tirelessly to preserve proper pay, T+C's and a professional working relationship with management with "Dignity and Respect" between pilots and management a central theme. There is a large amount of trust that both parties have with each other and pilots are respected as professionals which we all know simply does not happen in RYR.
Well done to Monarch pilots and CC for their hard work on behalf of all pilots in all airlines! Monarch CC is also giving active help to Ryanair pilots in BALPA HQ as well as the many other airlines under the BALPA umbrella such as Thompson and many others. I don't suppose you knew about that hard work or cooperation though did you Rubik? All pilots no matter what their allegiance understand the impact and danger that Ryanair poses to them.
Obtaining recognition is a considerable amount harder to achieve in such an anti-union, aggressive management style such as Ryanairs compared to companies that are currently recognised where there is open communications between pilots and management and were pilots at the very least feel that they have a voice.
RYR is a place where bonuses are paid to individuals to make large amounts of cuts and savings. A large percentage of pay compared to other companies is productivity based in Ryanair for these set individuals as much the same way as Bankers pay is and we all know were that got us!
These type of people do not have any long term type of interest with the long term outlook of the industry and the high levels of standards that have been fought for in the past and will continue to be in the future.
While I understand your fears of what might happen. I think you need to realise that there are risks in everything we do in life. These have been thought through in great detail and will be weighed up either way for each individual pilot. I think many individuals need to understand that there are laws of employment that just can't be ignored but it is up to the pilot to exercise these laws if and when RYR break them as well as the commercial agreements with airports and service providers which will come under contracts of Tort. RYR are not on some separate plain of existence outside of these laws and it is up to us as pilots and the other bodies to make sure RYR know this by exercising our rights when broken. The courts though are not the answer to RYR pilot’s problems as has been proved in the past. It is through a well thought out strategy which is planned, responsible, mature and honest.
Pilots need to realise that you have to upkeep your T+C's as much as you’re medical or your license. This is because management do not have your best interests at heart in any sort of way. You are a cost that has to be cut and it is as simple as that. This is a battle or prolonged war that will never be won by either party and will never be lost no matter what job or what company. It just so happens that in the immediate past RYR has been on the winning side and hence why pilots who now fly for RYR, have said they have had enough of this blatant abuse and disrespect in them from a management that shows no decency in how it conducts its business.
The difference to this campaign is that it is led by pilots for pilots. It is in cooperation with other company’s pilots and with the help of BALPA and IALPA.
There is no problem playing devils advocate here Rubik but while you give no facts whatsoever to back up your assumptions it is hard to take what you are saying with any weight. These assumptions have been thought about and anything is always a possibility but you have to look at the risk of what you are saying. Is there a risk of shutting a base? Possibly but is not likely. Is there a risk of shutting all UK RYR bases? Almost definitely not unless the CAA or the government get involved. I also think your analysis of the RYR business model is simplistic at best. It has been looked at in great detail and nothing is always as it might seem. RYR is a scheduled airline and has to be run that way.
Nobody has or will argue the complexity or logistics of what needs to be done. But nothing will happen unless individuals go ahead and do something. Hence why RYR pilots have to act together no matter what your base or your nationality or contract status.
You said: “but to suggest that my efforts on the PLC were insignificant and worthless is both wrong and mildly insulting.” I think what RYR pilots are saying to you RUBIK is that you are being mildly insulting with your tone and down right negative attitude. Can I ask this question. Are you saying RYR pilots are not intelligent, organised or that they posses the will to achieve a voice and some Dignity and Respect?
It is easy to criticise people from a beach in Thailand but a very different situation when you are the one putting something at risk to achieve everything the pilots in RYR are wishing to happen. In your short time in RYR did you not think to get involved and try and change something or were you willing to sit back and arm chair speculate and criticise. This is arm chair politics at the least and very depressing and negative towards some of your fellow past colleagues at the most. You are helping them achieve nothing and not helping their future in any way.
Who has said industrial action would be needed RUBIK? Nobody has said that although no option would be off the agenda because to do so would be narrowing all options of the pilots concerned in what will be very difficult discussions.
Lastly I would like to state that RYR pilots need to act now as your contract of employment is at risk. Your long term future is at threat. All of this is done without any show of Dignity and Respect towards you as a professional.
MOL has admitted many times in the past that some sort of formal recognition will take place in RYR at some time in many forums. He said some sort of professional association will be in place but that he and others would discourage this and put it off for as long as possible through various tactics. He has admitted that this was inevitable at some time.
The time is now RYR pilots!
Sign up to the petition at: https://www.balpa.org/RyanairPetition.aspx
Well done to Monarch pilots and CC for their hard work on behalf of all pilots in all airlines! Monarch CC is also giving active help to Ryanair pilots in BALPA HQ as well as the many other airlines under the BALPA umbrella such as Thompson and many others. I don't suppose you knew about that hard work or cooperation though did you Rubik? All pilots no matter what their allegiance understand the impact and danger that Ryanair poses to them.
Obtaining recognition is a considerable amount harder to achieve in such an anti-union, aggressive management style such as Ryanairs compared to companies that are currently recognised where there is open communications between pilots and management and were pilots at the very least feel that they have a voice.
RYR is a place where bonuses are paid to individuals to make large amounts of cuts and savings. A large percentage of pay compared to other companies is productivity based in Ryanair for these set individuals as much the same way as Bankers pay is and we all know were that got us!
These type of people do not have any long term type of interest with the long term outlook of the industry and the high levels of standards that have been fought for in the past and will continue to be in the future. While I understand your fears of what might happen. I think you need to realise that there are risks in everything we do in life. These have been thought through in great detail and will be weighed up either way for each individual pilot. I think many individuals need to understand that there are laws of employment that just can't be ignored but it is up to the pilot to exercise these laws if and when RYR break them as well as the commercial agreements with airports and service providers which will come under contracts of Tort. RYR are not on some separate plain of existence outside of these laws and it is up to us as pilots and the other bodies to make sure RYR know this by exercising our rights when broken. The courts though are not the answer to RYR pilot’s problems as has been proved in the past. It is through a well thought out strategy which is planned, responsible, mature and honest.
Pilots need to realise that you have to upkeep your T+C's as much as you’re medical or your license. This is because management do not have your best interests at heart in any sort of way. You are a cost that has to be cut and it is as simple as that. This is a battle or prolonged war that will never be won by either party and will never be lost no matter what job or what company. It just so happens that in the immediate past RYR has been on the winning side and hence why pilots who now fly for RYR, have said they have had enough of this blatant abuse and disrespect in them from a management that shows no decency in how it conducts its business.
The difference to this campaign is that it is led by pilots for pilots. It is in cooperation with other company’s pilots and with the help of BALPA and IALPA.
There is no problem playing devils advocate here Rubik but while you give no facts whatsoever to back up your assumptions it is hard to take what you are saying with any weight. These assumptions have been thought about and anything is always a possibility but you have to look at the risk of what you are saying. Is there a risk of shutting a base? Possibly but is not likely. Is there a risk of shutting all UK RYR bases? Almost definitely not unless the CAA or the government get involved. I also think your analysis of the RYR business model is simplistic at best. It has been looked at in great detail and nothing is always as it might seem. RYR is a scheduled airline and has to be run that way.
Nobody has or will argue the complexity or logistics of what needs to be done. But nothing will happen unless individuals go ahead and do something. Hence why RYR pilots have to act together no matter what your base or your nationality or contract status.
You said: “but to suggest that my efforts on the PLC were insignificant and worthless is both wrong and mildly insulting.” I think what RYR pilots are saying to you RUBIK is that you are being mildly insulting with your tone and down right negative attitude. Can I ask this question. Are you saying RYR pilots are not intelligent, organised or that they posses the will to achieve a voice and some Dignity and Respect?
It is easy to criticise people from a beach in Thailand but a very different situation when you are the one putting something at risk to achieve everything the pilots in RYR are wishing to happen. In your short time in RYR did you not think to get involved and try and change something or were you willing to sit back and arm chair speculate and criticise. This is arm chair politics at the least and very depressing and negative towards some of your fellow past colleagues at the most. You are helping them achieve nothing and not helping their future in any way.
Who has said industrial action would be needed RUBIK? Nobody has said that although no option would be off the agenda because to do so would be narrowing all options of the pilots concerned in what will be very difficult discussions.
Lastly I would like to state that RYR pilots need to act now as your contract of employment is at risk. Your long term future is at threat. All of this is done without any show of Dignity and Respect towards you as a professional.
MOL has admitted many times in the past that some sort of formal recognition will take place in RYR at some time in many forums. He said some sort of professional association will be in place but that he and others would discourage this and put it off for as long as possible through various tactics. He has admitted that this was inevitable at some time.
The time is now RYR pilots!
Sign up to the petition at: https://www.balpa.org/RyanairPetition.aspx
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By the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes.
I am sure half of europe were equally pessimistic in 1944.
and I absolutely believe more than ever that the pilots can beat MOL, DOB and PB.
and our voice will be heard, after this key step is complete.
It will be much more than stickers and text messages.
if recognition is national, really what can he do
This is begining of the snowball effect
Flatulence Fred, there was a time when the cunning linguists of BALPA went about their 'sheep in wolves clothing' shenanigans with more subtlety and darkness than your brazen, callow bull****tery demonstrates. As much as I hold them and you in contempt as the craven, cowardly curs and manipulators that you are, there used to be, I'll admit, a certain respect for method among the BALPA mendacity. No longer, it seems. Oh dear.
Your timing is impeccable, though, coming at the crest of the first wave of the deepest recession to strike Europe since the first flight of man, but you will fail in this as you always fail here at Ryanair because of your failure to grasp the one central issue. WE DON'T WANT YOU. Sure, there are sad, whinnying creatures that lack the perspective of a previous job to realise how fortunate they are at Ryanair, but they, too, will see the light in due course.
It isn’t perfect, and sure it could be better, but measured against the certain downfall and inevitable squalor that comes from unionisation, and all those empty promises, I’ll take Mullingar Mike every time.
Last edited by Leo Hairy-Camel; 4th Apr 2009 at 12:48.
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Mr hairy camel, do you genuinely mean what you have posted or are you on a wind up? You would truly prefer MOL cutting your contract up every 9 months for a new five deal to Balpa and Ialpa taking care of us?
You must be another one of the chaps I see in the crewroom prepared to whore themselves to climb the ladder.
Spare me/us the rhetoric.
You must be another one of the chaps I see in the crewroom prepared to whore themselves to climb the ladder.
Spare me/us the rhetoric.
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Leo hasn't worked for 'squalid' unionised Monarch, evidently!
Alibaba, I agree with your assessment of the situation. My post merely points out the difficulty of getting such a diaspora to come to a collective decision in favour of anything, much less striking.
I agree that the situation at RYR is dire, the bottom of the heap by a long way regarding T&Cs and all of us should do all we can to avoid letting other, well run and well regarded airlines form joining in the downwards spiral.
I am sure you know that in all the years that unionised Monarch has existed, they have never, as far as I know, had a vote in favour of a strike and yet they enjoy some of the best T&Cs in the airline community in UK. They have had votes, but not to strike!
I was merely trying to point out that striking is not always the answer!
There are other alternatives.
Alibaba, I agree with your assessment of the situation. My post merely points out the difficulty of getting such a diaspora to come to a collective decision in favour of anything, much less striking.
I agree that the situation at RYR is dire, the bottom of the heap by a long way regarding T&Cs and all of us should do all we can to avoid letting other, well run and well regarded airlines form joining in the downwards spiral.
I am sure you know that in all the years that unionised Monarch has existed, they have never, as far as I know, had a vote in favour of a strike and yet they enjoy some of the best T&Cs in the airline community in UK. They have had votes, but not to strike!
I was merely trying to point out that striking is not always the answer!
There are other alternatives.
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Captains
If STN, or any other base, vote for Union recognition, MOL will close the base, make the pilots redundant and move all the aircraft to other bases. Then he will invite all the out of work pilots, and there are a lot of them about right now, to join RYR, probably on a lower salary, at the now expanded bases.
I myself am BRK, and I know that T&C for us will no doubt start to come down very soon. We do not have the benifit of ANY protection under employment law. If we are no longer required as a contractor, contract terminated. Job done. They can hire and fire 'Companies' as and when they like.
One of the other things that make me feel very uneasy is the fact that people think that I am BRK because I am trying to shaft the FR guys. This is not the case. I was forced onto this contract, and I fought long and hard to try and avoid it, but at the end of the day, having been promised the earth IN WRITTING at interview, and then shelling out money on THAT basis only to find that your money is gone and the promises are hollow, what do you do? Stand on principle, or take a position that pays well and try and make back the money I have spent?
One final point I feel that I should make. How many pilots does it take to operate a B737 in FR? Last time i checked it was 2 made up of the following:-
1 Captain and 1 First Officer
2 Captains
Note the combination that is missing - 2 First Officers.
Captains are the people that make these planes legally fly. Get them on side and you will find 1 pilot makes all the difference.
Having spoken to many pilots about this hot topic, FO's tend to be BRK and are scared of loosing thier jobs. Understandable, however being happy to make the 'YES' vote when the time comes is all that is needed from those that can. Majority of the captains are in favour and will also make the right choice when the time comes. The only people that are not willing to get involved are the forign guys. Some of these guys that refuse to get involved. They think that paying £300-£600 per year to BALPA, (An organisation that is there to help protect pilots from companies, but most importantly from a legal point of view because if there is an incident that ends up in case of negligence, you are on your own), is to much. They refuse to believe that things can get any worse, and if all else fails, bring down the shutters and finish with the line - "Back in my country, I would not be working now, so Ryanair have to do a lot more then this to make me want to take action".
I am not going to say that I hate the company, and I think that everyone there are crooks, and that everything is bad, because it isn't. Some things are great, and some things are seriously bad. FR is doing something right in the fact that it owes money to no one. What I don't agree with is the way the company goes about things, and treats its 'professional' employees. How they can remove money from pilots and say the company is struggling, and then at the end of this year, (mark my words), post a profit and pay shareholders is unacceptable, and for that reason I believe that the workforce requires a qualified body to represent them.
Last edited by jayc004; 5th Apr 2009 at 09:05.
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I'm going to stop reading this thread now because rubik101's ignorant posts are staring to raise my blood pressure. However I would suggest rubik that you take your own advice and read other people's posts before responding to them. I believe you alone have used the word strike.
Alibaba, I sincerely hope that one day soon the pilots of fr are able to thank you and your colleagues in person for the good work you're doing on their behalf with the dignity and respect they so deserve.
Alibaba, I sincerely hope that one day soon the pilots of fr are able to thank you and your colleagues in person for the good work you're doing on their behalf with the dignity and respect they so deserve.
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Leo's thumbs must be getting pricked!
https://www.balpa.org/RyanairPetition.aspx
Rubik I totally agree with your last post. There is always difficulty in organising such a campaign and nobody has denied this. But I think pilots have the will and desire to achieve such a goal if it is done honestly and sensibly by the pilots and BALPA and IALPA.
I also agree that Leo sees himself as having worked for someone else, that he is the ultimate authority on what is a good airline and what is bad. The one problem for him is that that he is wrong.
While at best he is mildly amusing he lacks no facts in his arguments of what the situation is in RYR as a line pilot compared to most union recognised, respected professional pilots flying for other comparable UK or European airlines. If you take most union recognised companies especially under the BALPA umbrella you will also find that compared to RYR the T+C's are far more superior with an open and transparent communication structure between management and their pilots Easyjet being of a good example. RYR management communication with its pilot workforce is none existent and mainly dictatorial.
While nobody doubts RYR on its safety practice's it's safety culture is something to be frowned upon. In my opinion it is closed, non transparent and punitive in its nature. From things such as fuel decisions, FTL's, operational decision making and use of Commanders Discretion to name just a few. RYR seems to lack any trust whatsoever in its pilots hence the all too prevalent dictatorial rule making type environment that RYR pilots find themselves in. Trust is a very powerful thing and when two parties in such a safety critical profession such as ours lack this trust it can only lead to very negative consequences. Proof is in the CVR CB memo and the 500ft gate memo. Things can still be done and written to try to tackle the subjects at hand but with a little bit more tact with respect to the professionals that fly these aircraft. Also if it is an operational requirement it should be from the Chief pilot or safety/training office and not from MOL's desk.
I think it would be right to say because of the punitive type nature that the company management posses against it pilots it can lead to pilots being less open to report safety related incidents in fear of punitive action taken against themselves. This is questionably dangerous and most independent safety experts would openly criticise this type of environment for its impact on safety. Commander’s decisions should be questioned at times but with respect and with the outcome from investigations to incidents and decisions being to educate and inform. In my opinion, to many times have "Tea and Biscuits" been mentioned with pilots being hauled off to DUB to be stripped of rank, position and most of all Dignity and Respect in a kangaroo court with no proper or established lawful processes. LTC's loosing rank etc due to an operational decision made by the Captain or Aircraft Commander as enshrined under law from time and memorial. These laws were fought for long and hard to preserve safety for many reasons. One reason being to stop companies applying commercial pressure against safety. Pilots were given this as they were felt to be the guardians and trustees of safety in an aircraft and the aviation environment and this is being slowly eroded underneath RYR pilot’s feet. Bird strike training with pilots now signing the aircraft as airworthy after a bird strike is just another of the many ways commercial pressure is having an effect on operational day to day running of RYR.
It depends what’s in the squirt because it seems you lack the balls and are firing blanks when it comes to standing by your fellow professional colleagues and fight for a better future. What is your reason for this? If you are Brookfield nobody wants to remove your choice to remain on that type of contract. At least you would have a choice and the many forced workers would have the option to be permanent RYR staff or Brookfield workers. That is the objective.
Depends on the size of the voice doesn't it. Are you saying that RYR pilots do not have this voice? Hence why I am arguing that they should have it and making my point for me or are you saying that RYR pilots do not have intelligentsia to obtain this voice? If there is a will to obtain this voice you can bet RYR pilots are equipped and organised enough to obtain their wishes if so desired.
Simple answer. Lead by pilots for pilots.
The momentum is growing and will hopefully continue to grow. It will be something that is in RYR pilots hands though by simply filling in a petition and submitting numbers to the CAC and balloting for recognition. It is in your hands and it as simple as that. 
https://www.balpa.org/RyanairPetition.aspx
You do not talk for all the RYR pilots Leo. They will have a voice if they want to obtain this for themselves. If they do not want it they do not have to do anything. If they do then they go as previously said and fill in the petition and vote in a secret ballot run by the electoral reforms society and vote for recognition. How hard can that be for a RYR pilot to do?
Also we might be in a recession but as RYR has already proved with the predicted 80 million euro profit this year the company is in no dire straights. With 2 billion in the bank RYR is in no dire straights. With the lowest costs in Europe, customers will continue to fly with RYR so once again the company is in no dire straights.
RYR have had 10 years of continuous growth with a predicted 67 million PAX to be carried this year. In all of this time of aggressive growth pilots have not received any pay rises with pilots loosing out to inflation and RPI year on year with all the good years and the same excuses about possible job losses were used then as now. Easyjet pilots now being considerably more remunerated than RYR pilots are with respect from their management for their professionalism. It is simply a scare mongering tactic from people such as you to say that if a pilot body obtains recognition that all is likely to fail and will lead to job cuts. The evidence is far from this and is quite to the contrary as the latest deal in Thompson with its pilots and management. An open cooperative approach between management and pilots with fair open dealing is all pilots are looking for and can help maintain jobs in the long run. If jobs are lost in RYR because of recognition it is because of political spite from the management and further evidence to their lack of respect and professionalism towards its pilots. Will there ever be a good time for recognition for you? Simply put no because you don’t see the arguments and what the benefits are for the company in a partnership with pilots. As said previously compare any BALPA umbrella equivalent company against RYR and you will find very quickly that pilots are much worse off in RYR in all terms than someone such as Easy or Thompson etc
I really don’t see where you are coming from here. Can you name an airline that has failed because of fair industry standard T+C’s being paid to pilots? Also can you name the price on showing a companies group of pilots a bit of Dignity and Respect? As far as I am concerned there is no price on Dignity and Respect Leo. No airline has gone bust because of showing their pilots industry standard T+C’s as far as I am aware. It is the financing, business model or fuel that costs companies the most money and mistakes in these arrangements is what leads to company going bankrupt. If you think showing RYR pilots fair T+C’s and Dignity and Respect will bankrupt RYR then you are seriously mistaken and I think shows you Leo to be one of the few misguided minority of pilots in RYR.
Sorry for the long post but I think the simplistic way some of us comment on RYR need to be looked at and analysed in great detail. The arguments should stand for themselves when looked at and viewed through the magnifying glass on the actual facts of working life in RYR not bs from select individuals.
The time is now to act simply by filling in the petition.
https://www.balpa.org/RyanairPetition.aspx
Rubik I totally agree with your last post. There is always difficulty in organising such a campaign and nobody has denied this. But I think pilots have the will and desire to achieve such a goal if it is done honestly and sensibly by the pilots and BALPA and IALPA.
I also agree that Leo sees himself as having worked for someone else, that he is the ultimate authority on what is a good airline and what is bad. The one problem for him is that that he is wrong.
While at best he is mildly amusing he lacks no facts in his arguments of what the situation is in RYR as a line pilot compared to most union recognised, respected professional pilots flying for other comparable UK or European airlines. If you take most union recognised companies especially under the BALPA umbrella you will also find that compared to RYR the T+C's are far more superior with an open and transparent communication structure between management and their pilots Easyjet being of a good example. RYR management communication with its pilot workforce is none existent and mainly dictatorial.
While nobody doubts RYR on its safety practice's it's safety culture is something to be frowned upon. In my opinion it is closed, non transparent and punitive in its nature. From things such as fuel decisions, FTL's, operational decision making and use of Commanders Discretion to name just a few. RYR seems to lack any trust whatsoever in its pilots hence the all too prevalent dictatorial rule making type environment that RYR pilots find themselves in. Trust is a very powerful thing and when two parties in such a safety critical profession such as ours lack this trust it can only lead to very negative consequences. Proof is in the CVR CB memo and the 500ft gate memo. Things can still be done and written to try to tackle the subjects at hand but with a little bit more tact with respect to the professionals that fly these aircraft. Also if it is an operational requirement it should be from the Chief pilot or safety/training office and not from MOL's desk.
I think it would be right to say because of the punitive type nature that the company management posses against it pilots it can lead to pilots being less open to report safety related incidents in fear of punitive action taken against themselves. This is questionably dangerous and most independent safety experts would openly criticise this type of environment for its impact on safety. Commander’s decisions should be questioned at times but with respect and with the outcome from investigations to incidents and decisions being to educate and inform. In my opinion, to many times have "Tea and Biscuits" been mentioned with pilots being hauled off to DUB to be stripped of rank, position and most of all Dignity and Respect in a kangaroo court with no proper or established lawful processes. LTC's loosing rank etc due to an operational decision made by the Captain or Aircraft Commander as enshrined under law from time and memorial. These laws were fought for long and hard to preserve safety for many reasons. One reason being to stop companies applying commercial pressure against safety. Pilots were given this as they were felt to be the guardians and trustees of safety in an aircraft and the aviation environment and this is being slowly eroded underneath RYR pilot’s feet. Bird strike training with pilots now signing the aircraft as airworthy after a bird strike is just another of the many ways commercial pressure is having an effect on operational day to day running of RYR.
three squirts a night on Viagra just like when I was 20, but none of that is true either.
Yeah, right, with all the enduring resonance of a fart in a hurricane.
Oh really? All evidence to the contrary. At your last great outing of purpose, this was the best you could do, despite your investment of millions of other people's money.
Snowball's chance in hell, more like!
https://www.balpa.org/RyanairPetition.aspx
Your timing is impeccable, though, coming at the crest of the first wave of the deepest recession to strike Europe since the first flight of man, but you will fail in this as you always fail here at Ryanair because of your failure to grasp the one central issue. WE DON'T WANT YOU. Sure, there are sad, whinnying creatures that lack the perspective of a previous job to realise how fortunate they are at Ryanair, but they, too, will see the light in due course.
Also we might be in a recession but as RYR has already proved with the predicted 80 million euro profit this year the company is in no dire straights. With 2 billion in the bank RYR is in no dire straights. With the lowest costs in Europe, customers will continue to fly with RYR so once again the company is in no dire straights.
RYR have had 10 years of continuous growth with a predicted 67 million PAX to be carried this year. In all of this time of aggressive growth pilots have not received any pay rises with pilots loosing out to inflation and RPI year on year with all the good years and the same excuses about possible job losses were used then as now. Easyjet pilots now being considerably more remunerated than RYR pilots are with respect from their management for their professionalism. It is simply a scare mongering tactic from people such as you to say that if a pilot body obtains recognition that all is likely to fail and will lead to job cuts. The evidence is far from this and is quite to the contrary as the latest deal in Thompson with its pilots and management. An open cooperative approach between management and pilots with fair open dealing is all pilots are looking for and can help maintain jobs in the long run. If jobs are lost in RYR because of recognition it is because of political spite from the management and further evidence to their lack of respect and professionalism towards its pilots. Will there ever be a good time for recognition for you? Simply put no because you don’t see the arguments and what the benefits are for the company in a partnership with pilots. As said previously compare any BALPA umbrella equivalent company against RYR and you will find very quickly that pilots are much worse off in RYR in all terms than someone such as Easy or Thompson etc
It isn’t perfect, and sure it could be better, but measured against the certain downfall and inevitable squalor that comes from unionisation, and all those empty promises, I’ll take Mullingar Mike every time.
Sorry for the long post but I think the simplistic way some of us comment on RYR need to be looked at and analysed in great detail. The arguments should stand for themselves when looked at and viewed through the magnifying glass on the actual facts of working life in RYR not bs from select individuals.
The time is now to act simply by filling in the petition.
https://www.balpa.org/RyanairPetition.aspx
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Boredhousewife, you are easily bored.
I used the 'strike' word simply because the inevitable consequence of a successful petition in RYR for union recognition will be a call from the now enfranchised membership to do just that.
All I am trying to point out is that there are other alternatives which will not result in the scenario I have described.
MOL will thumb his nose at any union, just as he has done in the past. Even if a tribunal were to find in favor of a sacked pilot, do you really think that he would give so much as a shrug of resignation? No, he will simply do what he has always done and ignore it.
I am all in favor of a successful outcome of the REPA initiative and hope that they get 100% support.
What I would not like to see is an immediate call for a strike in an attempt to show MOL their new found muscle.
It will end in ignominy, redundancies and tears.
On a positive note, I would suggest that if the petition is successful, (as I sincerely hope is the case), Base councils should be established, regular meetings arranged, collective meetings be established for all base councils at least every three months and the minutes of all meetings be passed on to PB, RC and MOL. After a year or so they will be able to gauge the well documented and clearly expressed feelings amongst the pilot community.
If no changes are made form these suggestions, then, perhaps, is the time to think about a ballot for a strike.
But not before.
I used the 'strike' word simply because the inevitable consequence of a successful petition in RYR for union recognition will be a call from the now enfranchised membership to do just that.
All I am trying to point out is that there are other alternatives which will not result in the scenario I have described.
MOL will thumb his nose at any union, just as he has done in the past. Even if a tribunal were to find in favor of a sacked pilot, do you really think that he would give so much as a shrug of resignation? No, he will simply do what he has always done and ignore it.
I am all in favor of a successful outcome of the REPA initiative and hope that they get 100% support.
What I would not like to see is an immediate call for a strike in an attempt to show MOL their new found muscle.
It will end in ignominy, redundancies and tears.
On a positive note, I would suggest that if the petition is successful, (as I sincerely hope is the case), Base councils should be established, regular meetings arranged, collective meetings be established for all base councils at least every three months and the minutes of all meetings be passed on to PB, RC and MOL. After a year or so they will be able to gauge the well documented and clearly expressed feelings amongst the pilot community.
If no changes are made form these suggestions, then, perhaps, is the time to think about a ballot for a strike.
But not before.
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ab uno disce omnes
Leo hasn't worked for 'squalid' unionised Monarch, evidently!
Alibaba, what a louche chap you are!
Not content in pretending that BALPA is the answer to every maiden's prayer at Ryanair, you've not only misrepresented the facts as they are on the ground in an attempt, quite maliciously, to provide disease and its cure in one mighty bluster, but you've evidently developed a fondness for twisting my words and meaning too, in trying to truss up your wafer thin argument!
Well, we'll see about that.
he lacks no facts
what the situation is in RYR as a line pilot compared to most union recognised, respected professional pilots flying for other comparable UK or European airlines.
In the rare air of Hounslow, though, different lights burn brightly. All the Atlantic Barons need do is pucker their sphincters appealingly, over whatever irks them that hour, to get the ears of BALPA all twitchy and receptive. In the entire, unhappy history of pilot industrial relations, long and ugly though it be, there will be no relationship more perfectly described as mutual masturbation than that which exists between British Airways and BALPA. The rest of us exist merely as fodder and providers of the cash they need to survive. Call me old fashioned, but I'd prefer the Chinese lesbian plate spinners.
it's safety culture is something to be frowned upon. In my opinion it is closed, non transparent and punitive in its nature.
Proof is in the CVR CB memo and the 500ft gate memo. Things can still be done and written to try to tackle the subjects at hand but with a little bit more tact with respect to the professionals that fly these aircraft.
You'd do well to listen less to the tone of voice, Alibaba, and more the words being uttered, but then your BALPA is all about style over substance, isn't it. Who would have thought that such bull**** as is BALPA's could be piled so high without suffering some terrible structural catastrophe. But wait! It gets worse!
I think it would be right to say because of the punitive type nature that the company management posses against it pilots it can lead to pilots being less open to report safety related incidents in fear of punitive action taken against themselves
In my opinion, to many times have "Tea and Biscuits" been mentioned with pilots being hauled off to DUB to be stripped of rank, position and most of all Dignity and Respect in a kangaroo court with no proper or established lawful processes.
The rest of your post is typical BALPA recruiting boilerplate, but I would say that what we do with our two billion €uro in cash is our business, not yours. Besides, we have 400 new aircraft to buy in order to facilitate future growth and employment of pilots, as well as a longhaul operation to get off the ground. As for returning it to shareholders, RYR stock doesn't pay dividends.
I find it stunning that you use Easyjet and Thompson as your pinups to the value inherent in joining your turgid organisation of British Airways pilot's prostate gland masseurs. In case of the former, you clearly haven't been keeping abreast of developments here. I've already mentioned the latter. A hopeless, despairing organisation of union infested, commercially failing, upper middle class, ex RAF dingbats where time to command is over 10 years at present. Mmmmmm, yummy.
Ryanair is one of the few great success stories in European, and shortly, world aviation and the one conspicuous aspect of our development, the one that kinda jumps at you right off the page, is the total absence of pilot unions. Coincidence, you think? We employ 2500 pilots, the vast majority of whom are more than happy with Ryanair T's&C's, and view your scurrilous attempts at making it in through the back door yet again, after being repeatedly told we don't want you, as what happens in a successful environment that lacks ready access to rat poison. How many votes will it take until you vanish back under the rock from which you emerge?
How appropriate you’ve chosen to call yourself Alibaba, old boy. Be warned, though, it’ll take more than a hearty “OPEN SESAME” from you and your forty thieves to prise open OUR cave of treasure.
Last edited by Leo Hairy-Camel; 5th Apr 2009 at 16:53.
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from one, learn all. Pricked the thumbs are!
https://www.balpa.org/RyanairPetition.aspx
What a load of drivel. Creative writing might be your strong suit but a realisation of reality you are quite obviously devoid of while lacking any sort of common sense. Leo the thespian in you is taking control of your thumbs. Calm down.
Don't go over the top there old boy will you? I think you were previously deriding a previous poster about mentioning the Third Reich weren't you?
Just how stupid do you think we are? Apples and pears there I think. 
When did I mention that BALPA is the cure to all diseases or
Nowhere did I say that. Quite a contemptible attempt to miss represents the facts as usual from your good hearted self.
Yes I know you are a Brookfield worker for RYR. You adequately stated that in this forum. I though do not need or desire the self reassurance to "OUT" myself in a public forum or to RYR management to try and obtain favours. This though does not mean you are talking for the common pilot in RYR. You are so far from the truth in this forum in what you talk about RYR. Have you had the decency to put your cadet up in Chai Leo when he was sleeping in the terminal with no money to afford a roof over his head for his 5 days flying in HHN? Next week CIA at his cost with no pay earned but at least RYR gets to rewrite the moral rule book on how staff should be treated. No risk to PAX there when that well rested FO straps on that new 737 and the LTC takes a turn for the worse? 
RYR is where it is because of its prime order of Boeings at bargain basement prices with limited liability lease back. Royal Bank of Scotland being one of the donkeys stumping up the money and we now know where RBS is on the long term strategic outlook of banks and financial institutions. Not to add to the very efficient and aggressive service and airport contracts negotiated. I have no problem with that side of the model but let’s not beat around the bush to how and why RYR has obtained its market position. I can't really see you beating round that bush though can I?
Treating employees with Dignity and Respect costs very little. I even think employees is a step to far because the way things are heading in RYR most pilots will be on temporary unsecured contracts if any contract at all.
BALPA is run by pilots for pilots. It is something that you seem not to grasp. I am sure if you where a member Leo an invite would be put out to you to go along and observe a public meeting of the NEC (National Executive Council) which is the leading body of BALPA which is a democratically elected body of pilots which represents pilots interests in the UK, Europe and Internationally. If you disbelieve my statement that T+C's are less in RYR compared to comparative companies give BALPA a call and I am sure the professional staff there would be happy to furnish you with written proof in terms of bench marking against other airlines in the UK. Go on old boy give them a call.
This is the point. Why do industrial relations have to be unhappy? If there was an open negotiation process things would not be unhappy. It takes a small amount of effort on both parties to come and try and achieve open and fair negotiations. Are RYR pilots or management happy with the present system of pilots and ERC's being threatened with sanctions from management with no collective or respectful bargaining? Management is the happier.
Again I think you will find that there have been a number of un-stabilised approaches since the memo in question. Please read memos 01/12/2008 and 22/01/2009. The simple truth is you do need have serious discussions with your crew about these problems. This though should be from the Chief Pilot or Training/Safety office as already stated without implied threats on crew’s employment.
As I said previously;
Your answer is bs? Do you find that to be of an adequate standard of answer to quite a troubling safety implication? As long as Leo is happy we all must be ok as he talks for all RYR pilots don't you know? 
Can you honestly say that does not happen in RYR Leo? Honestly hand on heart that you have never been involved in a situation or incident were you as the Commander have not had your decision making questioned which you felt as the PIC that you were taking the safest cause of action but various individuals did not. Reasons mainly because of the impact on the company in a public forum and possible public debate about yours or other pilots actions? That’s quite obviously how a company backs its staff. Doesn't matter if you were right or wrong does it really? Just that people who should have stood by you didn't.
400 new aircraft that Airbus at the moment will not tender for because of their distrust for RYR management tactics. Wow even an aircraft manufacturer in a recession is currently refusing to play ball with RYR management.
Employment of pilots. RYR could hire 10,000 pilots because if they where on a temporary Brookfield worker contract and doing 5 hrs a month it wouldn't matter to RYR. Simply because when you are on the worker contract you only get paid for scheduled flying hours flown. That’s it, nothing more than what you fly. So it doesn't really matter if you have 8000 people on standby because they are not getting paid a penny. Never mind the consequences to your finances or family if you go ill and can't fly for a prolonged period of time. That’s not employment in any sense of the word Leo. You are also not in employment Leo because you are not an Employee. You do not posses any of the rights of an Employee. Something again you fail to grasp. So these extra pilots that RYR will recruit with expansion will not be in employment simply put.
As opposed to upper middle class thespians types like you Leo? Sorry that argument doesn't fly either.
Success stories as opposed to Easyjet or FlyBe? hmm What about Southwest? hmm I don't think that argument even works because there is precedent is there not to the contrary. What was it you said? “Precedent is a pain in the arse”. Your sure right it is Leo! RYR is successful due to its stunning aircraft order and ability to lease back the aircraft at favourable prices during the late 90's and through to 2008. The problem that RYR might find in the future is the ability to achieve that amount and context of financing in the current credit crunch. I'm sure HMG or the World Bank could lend a hand though. We being Ryanair do not employ 2500 pilots because of reasons previously discussed to do with contract status etc
Here is the use of the all too prevalent pronoun "we" in Leo's arguments. Were in fact he should be stating the adjective "wee" as in small minority. You do not speak for all RYR pilots in whatever capacity and you are not a true litmus test as to the strength in feeling in the RYR pilot community. If pilots in RYR desire a voice it is up to them to achieve it by simply filling in the petition at:
https://www.balpa.org/RyanairPetition.aspx
Lastly Leo's egocentric tirade suits nobody but RYR management purposes. Unfortunately for him he has no facts, no valid arguments and a conviction which will not lead to professional pilots preserving the long term T+C's for this great industry or profession. Just lots of blustery and sunder. Shame on you. You answer nothing of valid points to you or how you would hope to better the long terms T+C's for pilots. Shame on you for playing to RYR managements fiddle. Shame on you for thinking that RYR pilots can not decide for themselves what they want for a Decent Respectful future.
Ryanair pilots you have the opportunity for fair open negotiations with reference to T+C's and beyond without the need of management threats. This chance is at:
https://www.balpa.org/RyanairPetition.aspx
What a load of drivel. Creative writing might be your strong suit but a realisation of reality you are quite obviously devoid of while lacking any sort of common sense. Leo the thespian in you is taking control of your thumbs. Calm down.
I call it consensual rape. But eh, don't rocka da boat.
So, Ryanair have been elevated to the equivalence in evil of the Third Reich? Just how stupid do you think we are?
When did I mention that BALPA is the cure to all diseases or
the answer to every maiden's prayer at Ryanair
Need I remind you that I actually DO work for RYR, whereas you, clearly, do not
RYR is where it is because of its prime order of Boeings at bargain basement prices with limited liability lease back. Royal Bank of Scotland being one of the donkeys stumping up the money and we now know where RBS is on the long term strategic outlook of banks and financial institutions. Not to add to the very efficient and aggressive service and airport contracts negotiated. I have no problem with that side of the model but let’s not beat around the bush to how and why RYR has obtained its market position. I can't really see you beating round that bush though can I?
Treating employees with Dignity and Respect costs very little. I even think employees is a step to far because the way things are heading in RYR most pilots will be on temporary unsecured contracts if any contract at all. BALPA is run by pilots for pilots. It is something that you seem not to grasp. I am sure if you where a member Leo an invite would be put out to you to go along and observe a public meeting of the NEC (National Executive Council) which is the leading body of BALPA which is a democratically elected body of pilots which represents pilots interests in the UK, Europe and Internationally. If you disbelieve my statement that T+C's are less in RYR compared to comparative companies give BALPA a call and I am sure the professional staff there would be happy to furnish you with written proof in terms of bench marking against other airlines in the UK. Go on old boy give them a call.
In the entire, unhappy history of pilot industrial relations
In case of the first, despite repeated instructions concerning stabilised approaches, endless on-message presentations and recurrent training ad nauseum, there were still a significant few who descended below our 'gates' not stabilised by our definition. Since the Chief Executive's memo, though, there hasn't been a single one. NOT ONE. Effective flight safety enhancement, perhaps?
As I said previously;
I think it would be right to say because of the punitive type nature that the company management posses against it pilots it can lead to pilots being less open to report safety related incidents in fear of punitive action taken against themselves
There you go with those 'opinions' again. Now I know you've never worked for us. This, demonstrably, DOES NOT HAPPEN. No one is denied due process. Surely even you wouldn't deny that occasions of repeated intentional non-compliance need to be addressed by sterner medicine than a slap on the wrist?
Doesn't matter if you were right or wrong does it really? Just that people who should have stood by you didn't.
Besides, we have 400 new aircraft to buy in order to facilitate future growth and employment of pilots
Employment of pilots. RYR could hire 10,000 pilots because if they where on a temporary Brookfield worker contract and doing 5 hrs a month it wouldn't matter to RYR. Simply because when you are on the worker contract you only get paid for scheduled flying hours flown. That’s it, nothing more than what you fly. So it doesn't really matter if you have 8000 people on standby because they are not getting paid a penny. Never mind the consequences to your finances or family if you go ill and can't fly for a prolonged period of time. That’s not employment in any sense of the word Leo. You are also not in employment Leo because you are not an Employee. You do not posses any of the rights of an Employee. Something again you fail to grasp. So these extra pilots that RYR will recruit with expansion will not be in employment simply put.
union infested, commercially failing, upper middle class, ex RAF dingbats where time to command is over 10 years at present. Mmmmmm, yummy.
Ryanair is one of the few great success stories in European, and shortly, world aviation and the one conspicuous aspect of our development, the one that kinda jumps at you right off the page, is the total absence of pilot unions. Coincidence, you think? We employ 2500 pilots, the vast majority of whom are more than happy with Ryanair T's&C's, and view your scurrilous attempts at making it in through the back door yet again, after being repeatedly told we don't want you, as what happens in a successful environment that lacks ready access to rat poison. How many votes will it take until you vanish back under the rock from which you emerge?
RYR is successful due to its stunning aircraft order and ability to lease back the aircraft at favourable prices during the late 90's and through to 2008. The problem that RYR might find in the future is the ability to achieve that amount and context of financing in the current credit crunch. I'm sure HMG or the World Bank could lend a hand though. We being Ryanair do not employ 2500 pilots because of reasons previously discussed to do with contract status etcHere is the use of the all too prevalent pronoun "we" in Leo's arguments. Were in fact he should be stating the adjective "wee" as in small minority. You do not speak for all RYR pilots in whatever capacity and you are not a true litmus test as to the strength in feeling in the RYR pilot community. If pilots in RYR desire a voice it is up to them to achieve it by simply filling in the petition at:
https://www.balpa.org/RyanairPetition.aspx
Lastly Leo's egocentric tirade suits nobody but RYR management purposes. Unfortunately for him he has no facts, no valid arguments and a conviction which will not lead to professional pilots preserving the long term T+C's for this great industry or profession. Just lots of blustery and sunder. Shame on you. You answer nothing of valid points to you or how you would hope to better the long terms T+C's for pilots. Shame on you for playing to RYR managements fiddle. Shame on you for thinking that RYR pilots can not decide for themselves what they want for a Decent Respectful future.
Ryanair pilots you have the opportunity for fair open negotiations with reference to T+C's and beyond without the need of management threats. This chance is at:
https://www.balpa.org/RyanairPetition.aspx
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Ledo or anyone else.
1. Is RYR based on Southwest?
2. Is Southwest successful?
3. Is Southwest unionised?
4. Has this been detrimental?
5. Name 1 large airline brought down by union activity.
6. Name many airlines brought down by incompetant management activity.
Once again it is the case that most pilots have the longterm interest of their airline and careers at heart. Most managers have the short-term interest of their own nests at heart.
This is not a RYR isolated issue, it is an industry wide issue. Don't
let the RYR example hijack and cloud your answers.
1. Is RYR based on Southwest?
2. Is Southwest successful?
3. Is Southwest unionised?
4. Has this been detrimental?
5. Name 1 large airline brought down by union activity.
6. Name many airlines brought down by incompetant management activity.
Once again it is the case that most pilots have the longterm interest of their airline and careers at heart. Most managers have the short-term interest of their own nests at heart.
This is not a RYR isolated issue, it is an industry wide issue. Don't
let the RYR example hijack and cloud your answers.
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Ryanair Colleagues,
Ask yourself ,
Why does no other forum within PPrune ,envoke such emotion amongst our Pilot friends ?
Something must be wrong. Be truthful with yourselves and your families.
Ask yourself ,
Why does no other forum within PPrune ,envoke such emotion amongst our Pilot friends ?
Something must be wrong. Be truthful with yourselves and your families.
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LHC, you are a purveyor of untruths.
Monarch's major shareholder and co-founder is a very nice Swiss gentleman, Mr Mantegazza, whose father started Cosmos Tours with a single ferry boat on Lake Lugano. Last time I looked, that is a long way from Sicily, but hey, urban myths are meant to be believed by the gullible, and you seem to fit that category admirably.
Before you rant, get your facts straight.
To look at the amount of money put in your bank every month, which if you are a Brookfield contractor on euro pay, will be quite substantial in a good month, sometimes clouds ones ability to see the wood for the trees.
Most of the airlines with reasonably good industrial relations with their employees, Monarch being one of them, provide such diverse and useful benefits such as Loss Of Licence Insurance, Death in Service payment, pensions, Interline, (that's where you get to travel on other airlines at a very reduced rate (not like the RYR, fly with us but it's cheaper to buy a ticket on-line type of interline)) subsidised health insurance and a degree of respect and dignity which is worth more than LHC will ever understand.
Still, if he's happy to contunue to work for the one single airline that is widely regarded as the pariah of the European airline industry, good for him.
I just hope that not too many of his fellow pilots are of such a short sighted and narrow minded ilk.
Sign the petition!!!
Monarch's major shareholder and co-founder is a very nice Swiss gentleman, Mr Mantegazza, whose father started Cosmos Tours with a single ferry boat on Lake Lugano. Last time I looked, that is a long way from Sicily, but hey, urban myths are meant to be believed by the gullible, and you seem to fit that category admirably.
Before you rant, get your facts straight.
To look at the amount of money put in your bank every month, which if you are a Brookfield contractor on euro pay, will be quite substantial in a good month, sometimes clouds ones ability to see the wood for the trees.
Most of the airlines with reasonably good industrial relations with their employees, Monarch being one of them, provide such diverse and useful benefits such as Loss Of Licence Insurance, Death in Service payment, pensions, Interline, (that's where you get to travel on other airlines at a very reduced rate (not like the RYR, fly with us but it's cheaper to buy a ticket on-line type of interline)) subsidised health insurance and a degree of respect and dignity which is worth more than LHC will ever understand.
Still, if he's happy to contunue to work for the one single airline that is widely regarded as the pariah of the European airline industry, good for him.
I just hope that not too many of his fellow pilots are of such a short sighted and narrow minded ilk.
Sign the petition!!!
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Rubik
Didn't you too work for the 'pariah' until recently?
Funny how all of a sudden you are so full of advice for others, you kept your gob shut while you took their money didn't you!
Still, if he's happy to contunue to work for the one single airline that is widely regarded as the pariah of the European airline industry, good for him.
Funny how all of a sudden you are so full of advice for others, you kept your gob shut while you took their money didn't you!
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https://www.balpa.org/RyanairPetition.aspx
Stan do you know that Rubik kept his "gob shut" for certain?
I very much doubt he did keep his "gob shut" in his own way of discussing issues on the flight deck. You or I can not say. Working for RYR is not a crime or is not ill-moral and Rubiks money was hard earned at RYR. So please do not criticise people for where they are employed as it serves no purpose.
If he didn't openly criticise management I would say he was a very wise man considering the risks involved to openly and publicly speaking out in such a hostile environment. A place where CCTV cameras sit poised over pigeon holes in crewrooms to stop free speech where the company mail shots anti BALPA propaganda into these pigeon holes and on the company intranet system known as "Crewdock". The disgraceful treatment of Capt. John Goss by RYR management concerning pigeon holes being of first and foremost in my mind.
A place where various consultants could be paid huge amounts of money to strategise on stopping RYR pilots openly communicating with management. Communication processes between both parties that are listening to each other in a fair, open and none threatening way. Eversheds being an example of this type of company that advises on employment contract law concerning employee status and temporary worker status to employers.
Communication and fair dealing is all RYR pilots want.
The start to this is by filling in the petition at:
https://www.balpa.org/RyanairPetition.aspx
Stan do you know that Rubik kept his "gob shut" for certain?
I very much doubt he did keep his "gob shut" in his own way of discussing issues on the flight deck. You or I can not say. Working for RYR is not a crime or is not ill-moral and Rubiks money was hard earned at RYR. So please do not criticise people for where they are employed as it serves no purpose.
If he didn't openly criticise management I would say he was a very wise man considering the risks involved to openly and publicly speaking out in such a hostile environment. A place where CCTV cameras sit poised over pigeon holes in crewrooms to stop free speech where the company mail shots anti BALPA propaganda into these pigeon holes and on the company intranet system known as "Crewdock". The disgraceful treatment of Capt. John Goss by RYR management concerning pigeon holes being of first and foremost in my mind.
A place where various consultants could be paid huge amounts of money to strategise on stopping RYR pilots openly communicating with management. Communication processes between both parties that are listening to each other in a fair, open and none threatening way. Eversheds being an example of this type of company that advises on employment contract law concerning employee status and temporary worker status to employers.
Communication and fair dealing is all RYR pilots want.
The start to this is by filling in the petition at:
https://www.balpa.org/RyanairPetition.aspx