Ryanair - The initial outlay
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00Seven's Bold Statement
these pilots will simply do whatever FR wants of them. Carry defects, go with min fuel, cut corners to make schedule, and even misrepresent the actual departure times to make them look good because they are too scared to face the music.
Go with min fuel - since when has that been a crime? If the PLOG requires us to 9136kgs and the weather is good, no notams to affect timely arrival etc what's your problem? The arrival fuel is usually at least a tonne more than minimum anyway as they PLOG burns are very pessimistic.
Misrepresent the actual departure time - what do you file as departure time? The time the doors closed ? The time you pushed back ? The time the aircraft first moves under it's own power ? Is it the time the aircraft and crew are ready - what happens if you have 3 or 4 fail to join pax and have to offload bags? Different airlines have different policies but at FR we don't push, start and taxi to remote holding burning unnecessary fuel and being so non environmentally friendly as other LoCo carriers do simply to massage their times.
Go back to your Flt Sim world where everything is rosy.
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Leroy,
Why do you think your suitcase is reinforced? Of course it's going to get bashed around - not that I condone it being deliberately done, but if people expect to get their suitcase back in as new condition after a few flights they are very nieve, or very stupid.
I hate to jump to their defense, but did you not realise it was baggage handlers unloading, and not Ryanair staff? I lost count of the amount of time I sat in the cabin as crew watching bags being chucked out of the plane willy nilly - people asked me why my airline allowed that to happen, the fact is its difficult to stop it. You can't lug a 20kg bag around a small hold without it getting knocked, or you pulling your back.
*back on topic*
I went to the Ryanair Open Day last month and they were very upfront about the fact you paid for most things. That's how they cut down their overheads. The degradation in general T&C's is not all because of Ryanair, it is as Superpilot states the responsibility of existing pilots and unions. New contracts are brought in, but because "we" aren't on them it doesn't affect us and they are allowed to be introduced for new hires. IALPA have the right idea with the recruitment freeze at Aer Lingus though, so maybe times are 'a changing.
Horgy
Why do you think your suitcase is reinforced? Of course it's going to get bashed around - not that I condone it being deliberately done, but if people expect to get their suitcase back in as new condition after a few flights they are very nieve, or very stupid.
I hate to jump to their defense, but did you not realise it was baggage handlers unloading, and not Ryanair staff? I lost count of the amount of time I sat in the cabin as crew watching bags being chucked out of the plane willy nilly - people asked me why my airline allowed that to happen, the fact is its difficult to stop it. You can't lug a 20kg bag around a small hold without it getting knocked, or you pulling your back.
*back on topic*
I went to the Ryanair Open Day last month and they were very upfront about the fact you paid for most things. That's how they cut down their overheads. The degradation in general T&C's is not all because of Ryanair, it is as Superpilot states the responsibility of existing pilots and unions. New contracts are brought in, but because "we" aren't on them it doesn't affect us and they are allowed to be introduced for new hires. IALPA have the right idea with the recruitment freeze at Aer Lingus though, so maybe times are 'a changing.
Horgy
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Sorry Mr Horgy - see my previous posts - it isn't JUST the fault of existing pilots/unions - wannabees agreeing to these scandalous terms are equally culpable!! To suggest otherwise is b******s 
And I would suggest that you too Diamond Dog, need a reality check
And I would suggest that you too Diamond Dog, need a reality check
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sid,
Sorry I didn't mean to point the finger of blame as just one group - as with the swiss cheese model it take a few mistakes to create a situation, so no doubt we ALL have a part to play. People having too much money doesn't help, the easy-credit crisis we're going through, all contributes, I just think there should be more of a "Bob Crow" type approach to T&C's
Horgy
Sorry I didn't mean to point the finger of blame as just one group - as with the swiss cheese model it take a few mistakes to create a situation, so no doubt we ALL have a part to play. People having too much money doesn't help, the easy-credit crisis we're going through, all contributes, I just think there should be more of a "Bob Crow" type approach to T&C's
Horgy
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Mr Horgy - your gracious apology gladly accepted. Joint responsibility - exactly the point I have been endeavouring to make 
Say again Slowly - in order to address/fix the 'problem' of SFTRs, a starting point is a willingness on the part of the various groups to accept responsibility (a trait more and more unfashionable in today's society which is so obsessed with the rights of the indidvidual)for the part they may be playing/have played in creating said problem. I fear that many in 'both' camps want to simply blame it on the other lot...........in reality, I believe it is the fault of all of us. For the record, I have already written to BALPA expressing my concerns - I'll have to do so again. I've tried to make my points courteously - if I've failed, apologies to all offended parties.
Say again Slowly - in order to address/fix the 'problem' of SFTRs, a starting point is a willingness on the part of the various groups to accept responsibility (a trait more and more unfashionable in today's society which is so obsessed with the rights of the indidvidual)for the part they may be playing/have played in creating said problem. I fear that many in 'both' camps want to simply blame it on the other lot...........in reality, I believe it is the fault of all of us. For the record, I have already written to BALPA expressing my concerns - I'll have to do so again. I've tried to make my points courteously - if I've failed, apologies to all offended parties.
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So, to get to the point where you fly for the likes of Ryanair you have to pay, what?.....About £100k, which you have to 'repay' yourself/whoever lent you the money before you start to show any sort of monetary profit. Lucky I'm at the end of my career not the beginning of it, I've actually made some money. Incidentally, as one who sees CV's there is a never-ending supply of 200 hour wannabees desperate to pay for a type rating (on almost anything) to get a job. There is a shortage of experienced, suitable for promotion pilots. I hate to say it but newbees are cutting their own throats. What the answer is I don't know, but when the music stops (and it will) there will be a lot of people very deeply in debt.
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Guys, as a mere wannabe (albeit of 8 years now 
) ofcourse I'm no mastermind on the subject but what I can clearly see is that the onus is upon you pilots to realise that what is happening at the lower end of the food chain WILL ineveditebly lead to the lowering of your terms and conditions (if it isn't happening already).
Fine, if youre Ts & Cs aren't affected now then you have to be willing to say "I don't give a sh*t!" to the following (which I believe a lot of you do):
Somebody with identical experience to yourself, doing an identical job, albeit in 10 years time earning the same or less (in real terms) than what you are earning now.
You frequently fight for pay, roster stability and pension amongst other things. Well protecting those at the bottom of the line by forcing your airline to pay for all training should be another. If you don't protect this baby the rot will creep right up and bite you in the ass and the next 3-5 years is all that you have to fix this problem.
I would love to fight for this cause, but need a job first!
) ofcourse I'm no mastermind on the subject but what I can clearly see is that the onus is upon you pilots to realise that what is happening at the lower end of the food chain WILL ineveditebly lead to the lowering of your terms and conditions (if it isn't happening already). Fine, if youre Ts & Cs aren't affected now then you have to be willing to say "I don't give a sh*t!" to the following (which I believe a lot of you do):
Somebody with identical experience to yourself, doing an identical job, albeit in 10 years time earning the same or less (in real terms) than what you are earning now.
You frequently fight for pay, roster stability and pension amongst other things. Well protecting those at the bottom of the line by forcing your airline to pay for all training should be another. If you don't protect this baby the rot will creep right up and bite you in the ass and the next 3-5 years is all that you have to fix this problem.
I would love to fight for this cause, but need a job first!
Last edited by Superpilot; 26th Sep 2007 at 15:41.
If I were to go back 20 years or so, the lack of progress at the bottom of the ladder was blamed to a large extent on experienced pilots who had already retired with a very nice pension at age 55 and then agreeing to work for peanuts for another airline just to top up their pensions. This, of course, meant that everyone else had to work for peanuts and so the T & Cs went into decline.
I believe it is still going on. In fact, I do believe that FR have several ex-BA pilots flying with them for example.
I believe it is still going on. In fact, I do believe that FR have several ex-BA pilots flying with them for example.
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In a market these days were there is a far larger demand than 'back then' there is no NEED to pay for a rating or training etc..
I do NOT agree that these retirees are by any means to blame for the lower salaries or payin4trainin'. You said it yourself, they work at FH (as skippers, not having paid a penny to MOL) or you'll find in JAL/ANA/SQ/KAL contracts maybe which are wayyyyyyyy off for the wannabee and not that badly paid if I may say so.
Just my point of view.
TA TA
I do NOT agree that these retirees are by any means to blame for the lower salaries or payin4trainin'. You said it yourself, they work at FH (as skippers, not having paid a penny to MOL) or you'll find in JAL/ANA/SQ/KAL contracts maybe which are wayyyyyyyy off for the wannabee and not that badly paid if I may say so.
Just my point of view.
TA TA
Well actually the way it was perceived was this; cheap, retired and qualified 55 year-old captain joins as a DEC. The senior first officer, who was expecting to be next in line for command, doesn't get his command. Pilot who was hoping to get hired at the bottom of the ladder doesn't get hired because senior FO is still in the right seat.
Worse still, cheap retired captain is prepared to work for peanuts for he already has a good pension. Therefore there will be a reduction in T&Cs for everyone else as long as there is a ready supply of trained pilots who are prepared to work for peanuts.
Certainly Virgin had a lot of that going on in the early days. Also European springs to mind and even Biman Bangladesh had at least one.
Worse still, cheap retired captain is prepared to work for peanuts for he already has a good pension. Therefore there will be a reduction in T&Cs for everyone else as long as there is a ready supply of trained pilots who are prepared to work for peanuts.
Certainly Virgin had a lot of that going on in the early days. Also European springs to mind and even Biman Bangladesh had at least one.
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You hit the nail on its head Fud.......We have cadets paying 100k to BUY a job in a market where there is a shortage of Pilots. Can you imagine what would be happening if we were in a pilot surplus position!
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Sorry for the thread creep here, I just don't want newbies being blamed for destroying the industry when they are just doing their best in the situation they are presented with.
The scale of post 55 retiree v no hour newbie is (or was) probably 1:10. However it was the moral justification that irked me for the mindset of the retiree is the same as the newbie, ie. "I'll accept what the industry offers" rather than "I should sacrifice myself for the greater good".
The difference is that the retiree has had their chance, the newbie really has no choice. No disrespect to retiree's as their wealth of experience is priceless and they bring a lot to expanding airlines, without them there would probably be no training, no newbies.
The rest of us are in a newbie/retiree sandwich. I don't see a brighter future now that 55ers are drying up. The industry will just reorganise a la JAL, Qantas, forming lite versions paying half the wage. They will be crewed by newbies and sandwich'ies wanting a command, thus shrinking the mother airline. This is the real threat under our noses while we're focused on newbie bashing. BA EU/US comes to mind.
The scale of post 55 retiree v no hour newbie is (or was) probably 1:10. However it was the moral justification that irked me for the mindset of the retiree is the same as the newbie, ie. "I'll accept what the industry offers" rather than "I should sacrifice myself for the greater good".
The difference is that the retiree has had their chance, the newbie really has no choice. No disrespect to retiree's as their wealth of experience is priceless and they bring a lot to expanding airlines, without them there would probably be no training, no newbies.
The rest of us are in a newbie/retiree sandwich. I don't see a brighter future now that 55ers are drying up. The industry will just reorganise a la JAL, Qantas, forming lite versions paying half the wage. They will be crewed by newbies and sandwich'ies wanting a command, thus shrinking the mother airline. This is the real threat under our noses while we're focused on newbie bashing. BA EU/US comes to mind.
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And another thing.
OOseven. Imagine what would happen to T&C's if the newbies didn't have to pay 100K. If it was only 10K the market would be flooded. I'm almost greatful to the flying schools for their robbery. Airlines must be looking at sponsorship schemes soon me thinks.
OOseven. Imagine what would happen to T&C's if the newbies didn't have to pay 100K. If it was only 10K the market would be flooded. I'm almost greatful to the flying schools for their robbery. Airlines must be looking at sponsorship schemes soon me thinks.
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OOseven has it right.
The industry needs pilots. They should be paying. Dont give me all that nonsense about debt. If you didnt have the money you should have worked until you did. I am a self improver, 15000 hrs, three tp ratings, three jet ratings (in the last six years) and have not paid for one. Why because i worked until I had enough money to pay for my licence. I worked again when jobs were thin in 2000. I have spent the same on my licences as you but only when I was able to. You got yourselves into debt to become pilots, your call. You now are ruining the industry by doing anything to get the jet rating.MOL is giggling away in his pikey office while all you silly people fund his company.
In 1999 I tried to stop people throwing money at the mcc course. Didnt happen. Desperation again. I didnt have to pay for , WHY BECAUSE I FOUGHT MY CORNER WITH THE CAA and if I had failed gone back abroad. The exemption rules for mcc are now in place thanks to pressure from people like me in 1999.What was the excuse then for those throwing money at it. Short sighted fools desperate to get in a jet.
Debt is only half the issue here. Ego plays a huge [art.
Bottom line if your not rich dont spend it.
There is a crew shortage .Fecking stop it you sad people.
The industry needs pilots. They should be paying. Dont give me all that nonsense about debt. If you didnt have the money you should have worked until you did. I am a self improver, 15000 hrs, three tp ratings, three jet ratings (in the last six years) and have not paid for one. Why because i worked until I had enough money to pay for my licence. I worked again when jobs were thin in 2000. I have spent the same on my licences as you but only when I was able to. You got yourselves into debt to become pilots, your call. You now are ruining the industry by doing anything to get the jet rating.MOL is giggling away in his pikey office while all you silly people fund his company.
In 1999 I tried to stop people throwing money at the mcc course. Didnt happen. Desperation again. I didnt have to pay for , WHY BECAUSE I FOUGHT MY CORNER WITH THE CAA and if I had failed gone back abroad. The exemption rules for mcc are now in place thanks to pressure from people like me in 1999.What was the excuse then for those throwing money at it. Short sighted fools desperate to get in a jet.
Debt is only half the issue here. Ego plays a huge [art.
Bottom line if your not rich dont spend it.
There is a crew shortage .Fecking stop it you sad people.
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Dear Mr Lardy Dar I've worked all my life to get where I want to be and haven't borrowed anything...
Well bully for you.
People take on debt, its called perceived risk.
They risk the debt now to get a better job later.
If they were going into debt now to get a flash car or a sofa then I would have some sympathy with your arguement.
However people going into debt and taking a risk has to be admired.
At least they probably have a life, rather than being some boring twit with a Gordon Brown complex.
Well bully for you.
People take on debt, its called perceived risk.
They risk the debt now to get a better job later.
If they were going into debt now to get a flash car or a sofa then I would have some sympathy with your arguement.
However people going into debt and taking a risk has to be admired.
At least they probably have a life, rather than being some boring twit with a Gordon Brown complex.
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From the wife of FlyingTom - some of these posts are pathetically ignorant and show a spectacular lack of empathy.
When my husband decided to follow his dream to become a pilot we both appreciated that it would involve risk, debt and some very lean years. He was lucky enough to be sponsored through the initial training but unlucky enough to have the prospect of a job taken away at the end of the training when Buzz were bought by Ryanair and all sponsorship deals were cancelled. This left him with three options; pay for a TR and have a greatly enhanced chance of getting a job (particularly as he was 30), carry on as a flying instructor earning minimum wage and hope that the industry came to him or give up altogether.
I remember the dilemma and while I agree with the principle of not paying for a TR, real life is nothing like the world portrayed by some of the earlier posts on this thread. When people have worked so hard to reach the final hurdle, who are you people to shatter their dreams with your nasty and spiteful bile spat from the comfort of your full-time pilot jobs?
You are right - people shouldn't have to pay for their training, but the sad fact is that the industry has changed (as have many other industries, my own included). Instead of this unseemly bitching, all pilots and wannabe's should be working together to improve T&C's - remember Management read these pages and they must be very happy to see such a divided work-force.
When people ask for help on this forum they don't deserve such abuse - if you established pilots don't have anything supportive to say then stay silent.
To the chap who started this post - I hope you take the job offer. Get your first job and good luck for your career. The TR decision was a tough call for us (it's a lot of money) and my husband did pay for his in the end and is now happily flying for BA - earning enough to pay off the debts!
I appreciate that partners don't normally post on this site but I remember how important sites like this were when my husband was starting out in 2001when we both used to read posts to try to workout what was happening in the industry as he made such important decisions. Positive and honest comments are called for - not the kind of negative nonsense from people who should know better.
When my husband decided to follow his dream to become a pilot we both appreciated that it would involve risk, debt and some very lean years. He was lucky enough to be sponsored through the initial training but unlucky enough to have the prospect of a job taken away at the end of the training when Buzz were bought by Ryanair and all sponsorship deals were cancelled. This left him with three options; pay for a TR and have a greatly enhanced chance of getting a job (particularly as he was 30), carry on as a flying instructor earning minimum wage and hope that the industry came to him or give up altogether.
I remember the dilemma and while I agree with the principle of not paying for a TR, real life is nothing like the world portrayed by some of the earlier posts on this thread. When people have worked so hard to reach the final hurdle, who are you people to shatter their dreams with your nasty and spiteful bile spat from the comfort of your full-time pilot jobs?
You are right - people shouldn't have to pay for their training, but the sad fact is that the industry has changed (as have many other industries, my own included). Instead of this unseemly bitching, all pilots and wannabe's should be working together to improve T&C's - remember Management read these pages and they must be very happy to see such a divided work-force.
When people ask for help on this forum they don't deserve such abuse - if you established pilots don't have anything supportive to say then stay silent.
To the chap who started this post - I hope you take the job offer. Get your first job and good luck for your career. The TR decision was a tough call for us (it's a lot of money) and my husband did pay for his in the end and is now happily flying for BA - earning enough to pay off the debts!
I appreciate that partners don't normally post on this site but I remember how important sites like this were when my husband was starting out in 2001when we both used to read posts to try to workout what was happening in the industry as he made such important decisions. Positive and honest comments are called for - not the kind of negative nonsense from people who should know better.
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Looking at several of the posters (Farty Flaps excluded) they have absolutely no idea of what it takes to be a pilot - a real pilot. Not a thing on their profile, no life experience to speak of and an arrogant ability to slag other off, when their parents have paid for them all the way though their training.
Whats the problem? You fathers mortgage was too big to allow them to remortgage enough for your own TR?
Well done Mrs Tom for having the guts of your husband, I am grateful enough to say my wife has stood by me, as an FI and no TR.
Children get back to your microsoft stimulator.
Whats the problem? You fathers mortgage was too big to allow them to remortgage enough for your own TR?
Well done Mrs Tom for having the guts of your husband, I am grateful enough to say my wife has stood by me, as an FI and no TR.
Children get back to your microsoft stimulator.
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hi,
this industry has turned crazy. MCC, type rating and now you must pay for line training and even your (500)first hours.
all this world is messed up due to this crazy capitalism; a boss makes 500 millions/year and a pilot makes less than 2000$/month (one of the airbus managers left with a bonus of 50 millions euro, and they gave only 8 euro of bonus to their workers) and it is worse every year, we become poorer and poorer, and cost of life goes up.
So what do we need to stop that? a war?
stop Europe, stop to buy the crap from china?
in my point of view, the only people responsible of this fiasco are our politicians.
this industry has turned crazy. MCC, type rating and now you must pay for line training and even your (500)first hours.
all this world is messed up due to this crazy capitalism; a boss makes 500 millions/year and a pilot makes less than 2000$/month (one of the airbus managers left with a bonus of 50 millions euro, and they gave only 8 euro of bonus to their workers) and it is worse every year, we become poorer and poorer, and cost of life goes up.
So what do we need to stop that? a war?
stop Europe, stop to buy the crap from china?
in my point of view, the only people responsible of this fiasco are our politicians.