Ryanair - The initial outlay
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Pilots are prostitutes..............................
Short term thinking destroys the business for future pilots.
Hopefully, the global shortage will send the most unserious employers out of business.
I find a resemblance to doping in cycling. Somebody starts using it - they get a head start, and then the rest starts using it. In a short time the entire sport/business is totally ruined.
Short term thinking destroys the business for future pilots.
Hopefully, the global shortage will send the most unserious employers out of business.
I find a resemblance to doping in cycling. Somebody starts using it - they get a head start, and then the rest starts using it. In a short time the entire sport/business is totally ruined.
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Well I for one will not be called a prostitute, there are some of us out there with morals, just! 
I attended the interview and sim assessment recently(at no cost to me), currently flying the Dash with close to 2000 hours. I was offered a position with Ryanair.
Have a guess at what was offered. 2000 hours and an ATPL soon and they offered a Cadet position!!!!
As much as I would like to move on I turned them down. To everyone else that might even consider paying for a job please dont, its starting to lower our terms and conditions higher up the ladder
I attended the interview and sim assessment recently(at no cost to me), currently flying the Dash with close to 2000 hours. I was offered a position with Ryanair.
Have a guess at what was offered. 2000 hours and an ATPL soon and they offered a Cadet position!!!!
As much as I would like to move on I turned them down. To everyone else that might even consider paying for a job please dont, its starting to lower our terms and conditions higher up the ladder
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Otters pocket,
Cant stand gordon brown. Have been excluded from the mainstream trying to get a job but didnt resolve it by subscribing to the current trends, then in their infancy.
Mrs flying tom,
Good for Nigel.One more lamb to the slaughter. I have more than earned the right in this industry to be bilious if I choose. Nigel is happy now you say...well thats alright then isnt it. Now he can concentrate on complaining to Balpa about loosing 50% bids ruining his time off and whether the report is from the carpark or not, or maybe the length of sbys when he lives 1.31 hrs from base. OOo lets move LHR closer. Or maybe he could campaign to stop people geting screwed? Is that going to happen?..No. Thats what we are trying to do.
Your Nigel is now one of the established pilots sitting comfortably. Lets see how long before he becomes bilious over an agenda within BA far less crucial than the destruction of the industry...and so it goes.
Right time to go and try and train another marginal with a purchased tr jet rating and no affinity for the job.
Cant stand gordon brown. Have been excluded from the mainstream trying to get a job but didnt resolve it by subscribing to the current trends, then in their infancy.
Mrs flying tom,
Good for Nigel.One more lamb to the slaughter. I have more than earned the right in this industry to be bilious if I choose. Nigel is happy now you say...well thats alright then isnt it. Now he can concentrate on complaining to Balpa about loosing 50% bids ruining his time off and whether the report is from the carpark or not, or maybe the length of sbys when he lives 1.31 hrs from base. OOo lets move LHR closer. Or maybe he could campaign to stop people geting screwed? Is that going to happen?..No. Thats what we are trying to do.
Your Nigel is now one of the established pilots sitting comfortably. Lets see how long before he becomes bilious over an agenda within BA far less crucial than the destruction of the industry...and so it goes.
Right time to go and try and train another marginal with a purchased tr jet rating and no affinity for the job.
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Flying Farmer, you were assessed by an experienced ( very experienced ) 737 TRE; if you were offered a cadet position perhaps his opinion of your demonstrated ability in the jet ( not turboprop) is reflected in the offer.
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Guys, there is no pilot shortage...really. Maybe a couple of flights get messed around because temporarily crew are in the wrong place or because there isn't a standby crew on that particular occasion, but by and large the airlines continue to operate...flights go more or less on schedule, CV's keep flooding in to HR departments with applicants offering to pay for type ratings, work for nothing etc etc.
The mob I work for has recently started a policy of not paying people until they get one line.... I think that's a disgrace but they get away with it, so do other companies. We won't look at non type- rated people, we don't need to because there is a line of people volunteering to pay themselves.
I don't expect newbies/wannabees to 'sacrifice' their aspirations by not paying, nor do I expect ex BA retirees to suddenly decide to 'act for the common good'. The situation is as it is, it's not going to change except for the worse, but after it's changed for the worse it will probably get better again....this has been the cycle for the last 50/60 years so I don't see why things should change.
So, should you pay for a type rating...no question really, because the probability is that you're going to have to. I think Flying Farmer's experience best summed up the state of the industry. On paper at least he/she would be a candidate for progression to jets with a good chance of an early command if the opportunity arose. The reality? Offered a cadet position. The conclusion? Any talk of a pilot shortage is wishful thinking. You may look at your roster and disruption to flights and think there is a shortage of crews, the bean counters however look at the bottom line and don't see the need to 'buy' more crews. The bean counters run the airlines, so in the real world they're right and you're wrong (until/unless events prove otherwise). Us pilots have been waiting for 'the golden age' (decent salaries/pensions for a long time...in real terms over the last 30-odd years my pay and conditions have at best remained pretty static and may actually have got slightly worse.
The mob I work for has recently started a policy of not paying people until they get one line.... I think that's a disgrace but they get away with it, so do other companies. We won't look at non type- rated people, we don't need to because there is a line of people volunteering to pay themselves.
I don't expect newbies/wannabees to 'sacrifice' their aspirations by not paying, nor do I expect ex BA retirees to suddenly decide to 'act for the common good'. The situation is as it is, it's not going to change except for the worse, but after it's changed for the worse it will probably get better again....this has been the cycle for the last 50/60 years so I don't see why things should change.
So, should you pay for a type rating...no question really, because the probability is that you're going to have to. I think Flying Farmer's experience best summed up the state of the industry. On paper at least he/she would be a candidate for progression to jets with a good chance of an early command if the opportunity arose. The reality? Offered a cadet position. The conclusion? Any talk of a pilot shortage is wishful thinking. You may look at your roster and disruption to flights and think there is a shortage of crews, the bean counters however look at the bottom line and don't see the need to 'buy' more crews. The bean counters run the airlines, so in the real world they're right and you're wrong (until/unless events prove otherwise). Us pilots have been waiting for 'the golden age' (decent salaries/pensions for a long time...in real terms over the last 30-odd years my pay and conditions have at best remained pretty static and may actually have got slightly worse.
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The Real Slim
Sorry I can't agree with you, have just had a formal command recommendation from my company and Ryanair is not the only offer on the table.
I went because I was interested in what was on offer, there was talk I might get a DEP position(that needed slightly more multi crew hours than I have)!! now that might have suited me but sorry a Cadet position is taking the piss
Sorry I can't agree with you, have just had a formal command recommendation from my company and Ryanair is not the only offer on the table.
I went because I was interested in what was on offer, there was talk I might get a DEP position(that needed slightly more multi crew hours than I have)!! now that might have suited me but sorry a Cadet position is taking the piss
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Flying Farmer, the reality is that pilot recruitment is profit centre for ryr. Ignore Slim Shadys rubbish about not making the grade, he clearly isn't paying much attention if he thinks making the grade is a prime requisite for ryr FO's. The only requirement is the ability to stump up money and then accept below legal minimum wage pay. The maximum amount that can screwed out of pilots is at cadet level, so thats what your offered. What we then saw in action is the direct result of newbies prostituting themselves: they could offer you $hit because if you didn't taking it, some other muppet will.
SE210, that is the most succinct and accurate post on the subject I've seen in a long time.
Farty Flaps, bilious perhaps, but thorougly deserved.
Of course the established pilots have a part to play in improving T&C's, but the continual refusal of the buy-a-jobs to accept any responsibility is rather galling.
As F Flaps pointed out, nobody forces you into debt to go flying. The fact you have done so is no good excuse to cut your own throat thereafter.
As someone else said, that taking that debt is about calculated risk, well clearly the calculations failed if you're then forced to spend more to buy a job.
Anyway, it's your own futures you're wrecking, I just don't appreciate you wrecking everyone elses too.
SE210, that is the most succinct and accurate post on the subject I've seen in a long time.
Farty Flaps, bilious perhaps, but thorougly deserved.
Of course the established pilots have a part to play in improving T&C's, but the continual refusal of the buy-a-jobs to accept any responsibility is rather galling.
As F Flaps pointed out, nobody forces you into debt to go flying. The fact you have done so is no good excuse to cut your own throat thereafter.
As someone else said, that taking that debt is about calculated risk, well clearly the calculations failed if you're then forced to spend more to buy a job.
Anyway, it's your own futures you're wrecking, I just don't appreciate you wrecking everyone elses too.
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Camel Hair obviously doesn't hold his colleagues, the F/O's in particularly high regard it seems !
Flying Farmer - I wasn't being nasty with my comments: Ryanair's policy on type rating and availibility of positions changes on a regular basis, and on the day you did your assesment you may have been compared to guys with a shed load more experience and / or ability, hence the offer. Also you will, in the current market, be offered the least expensive position; if you don't take it someone else will.
Flying Farmer - I wasn't being nasty with my comments: Ryanair's policy on type rating and availibility of positions changes on a regular basis, and on the day you did your assesment you may have been compared to guys with a shed load more experience and / or ability, hence the offer. Also you will, in the current market, be offered the least expensive position; if you don't take it someone else will.
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The Real Slim Shady
I must admit you owe me a new laptop for that comment, I spat a very nice Chateauneuf du Pape all over the screen, (its now running very slowly), one of the best comments I have seen in a long time.
Lets face it Chaps and Chapesses, there is no pilot shortage, the old boys are going to do what they need to to supplement their incomes (the ones with no initiative I mean - the ones who haven't learn't the joys of running a business) and the cadets will do what they have to, to get their feet on the first rung of the ladder.
Its called capitalism. Its not a black magic trick, its basic dog eat dog.
If a cadet wants and can pay for his TR then good luck to them, if not things are a bit harder but they should succeed the old fashioned way.
It is far better than the old nepostic way of "daddy knows the chief pilot". Now that stinks and yes it still goes on.
All a TR really does is make the cadets life a little bit easier.
However when they get to interview and they are a tool, then this will shine through.
If I had the money, would I?
Probably, but what type?
At the moment only a C172.
Euro-Millions didn't come up. Bug-ger
I must admit you owe me a new laptop for that comment, I spat a very nice Chateauneuf du Pape all over the screen, (its now running very slowly), one of the best comments I have seen in a long time.
Lets face it Chaps and Chapesses, there is no pilot shortage, the old boys are going to do what they need to to supplement their incomes (the ones with no initiative I mean - the ones who haven't learn't the joys of running a business) and the cadets will do what they have to, to get their feet on the first rung of the ladder.
Its called capitalism. Its not a black magic trick, its basic dog eat dog.
If a cadet wants and can pay for his TR then good luck to them, if not things are a bit harder but they should succeed the old fashioned way.
It is far better than the old nepostic way of "daddy knows the chief pilot". Now that stinks and yes it still goes on.
All a TR really does is make the cadets life a little bit easier.
However when they get to interview and they are a tool, then this will shine through.
If I had the money, would I?
Probably, but what type?
At the moment only a C172.
Euro-Millions didn't come up. Bug-ger
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Camel Hair obviously doesn't hold his colleagues, the F/O's in particularly high regard it seems !
I have trained hundreds of pilots over the years in everything from gliders to DC-10s.
One of my protégés wrote to me recently to tell me that he had moved on from Ryanair to go longhaul.
What he said was very interesting. He told me that he had left Ryanair, not because of hassle or any other reason, but that he wanted to move on to longhaul and that he had got fed up with Tony Blair's government.
He told me that his time with Ryanair had been good. He had been well trained and that the attitude of the trainers in the sim and the aeroplane had been to educate and not to make it like the seven labours of Hercules.
The job was interesting, the airfields were interesting and his rosters were very stable.
The aircraft were mostly brand new (occasionally they might be 5 years old) and he also got paid on time.
His final comment was that he had enjoyed the experience and that it had been "EXACTLY AS IT SAYS ON THE TIN".
I have no experience of working for Ryanair but it seems to me that there are a whole bunch of people out there who are living in Walter Mitty land and hoping to re-invent BOAC.
Didn't you read what it said on the side of the tin before you bought it?
If it really is so bl**dy awful, why in God's name don't you move on like my friend did?
One of my protégés wrote to me recently to tell me that he had moved on from Ryanair to go longhaul.
What he said was very interesting. He told me that he had left Ryanair, not because of hassle or any other reason, but that he wanted to move on to longhaul and that he had got fed up with Tony Blair's government.
He told me that his time with Ryanair had been good. He had been well trained and that the attitude of the trainers in the sim and the aeroplane had been to educate and not to make it like the seven labours of Hercules.
The job was interesting, the airfields were interesting and his rosters were very stable.
The aircraft were mostly brand new (occasionally they might be 5 years old) and he also got paid on time.
His final comment was that he had enjoyed the experience and that it had been "EXACTLY AS IT SAYS ON THE TIN".
I have no experience of working for Ryanair but it seems to me that there are a whole bunch of people out there who are living in Walter Mitty land and hoping to re-invent BOAC.
Didn't you read what it said on the side of the tin before you bought it?
If it really is so bl**dy awful, why in God's name don't you move on like my friend did?
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Camel Hair said
The selection process is NOT influenced by the ability to pay. Having been selected as an appropriate candidate for employment the individual - a la Flying Farmer - may reject the offer because they do not like the T & Cs.
Selection and acceptance of an offer are different eggs.
Some are excellent, some are not. However, the fact remains the selection process is heavily influenced by the ability to pay. And also the willingness to pay.
Selection and acceptance of an offer are different eggs.
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And don't forget the warm feeling that you can have every night when you know that CAE will give your employer €5,000 cash-back for you doing your course with them. It will be a similar feeling that your soon to be cabin crew colleagues attending training courses in Spain have when they attend courses at a college owned by...
PM
PM
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The selection process is NOT influenced by the ability to pay.
An individual comes to ryr, refuses to pay for TR, then he/she is not selected.
A system based on merit would select people based on their experience, skills and other various competence based criteria. The best would then be offered the job.
The ryr process however self-selects those who also have the ability to pay. As those most suitable for the job are not always the same as those who can pay for it, it stands to reason that the first, and most important, hurdle to jump is the ability to pay. Everything else follows from this.
You can split hairs all you like about the difference between selection and acceptance, but that's just semantics and it all amounts to exact same thing, i.e. who sits in the cockpit.
The bottom line is that if you are not willing to buy a TR, you will not get the job, regardless of how good you are. Therefore it is plainly rubbish to say that willingness to pay is not the prime criterion in the ryr selection process. Everything else is dependent on it.
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Post assessment candidates are selected as suitable from those who attended.
They are then made an offer.
They may either accept or reject the offer.
Fairly standard procedure; if the offer is not compelling - don't accept. Selection and acceptance are different.
They are then made an offer.
They may either accept or reject the offer.
Fairly standard procedure; if the offer is not compelling - don't accept. Selection and acceptance are different.
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Selection and acceptance are different.
Anyway, it's all semantics again Mr Shady. No dosh, no job, it's very simple. You can be Chuck Yeager, God and Michael O'Leary all rolled into one, but if you ain't chequing out you ain't checking in.
It is therefore axiomatic that the willingness to pay is the overriding quality required to get the job. Without the cash, nothing else matters.
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Hate to butt in on the argument here but everyone that goes for an interview with Ryanair know that (for a Cadet position) they are going to have to stump up the cash. At no point during the interview process does the TRE or whoever conducting the HR bit ask to see your bank balance or whether or not you are willing to pay for the Rating. It is taken as read that you are, otherwise you would not be at the selection process.
Therefore it seems to me that the selection process for Ryanair is based purely on ability and suitability for the job.
I'm off now, I'll leave you two to get back at it
Therefore it seems to me that the selection process for Ryanair is based purely on ability and suitability for the job.
I'm off now, I'll leave you two to get back at it