Ryanair - The initial outlay
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Cracking point of view superpilot.
Balpa need to be tackling this issue. I was lucky, having not paid for a TR, but I know many who have and many who will. They want to fly, have the licence and the ability, yet the only way that so many of them can do it is by shelling out another wodge.
Many don't have the ability, but money talks.
As airlines realise more and more what a great cost-cutting exercise this is, then we will watch our Ts&Cs go down the swanney.
It is Balpa, and it's members, that should be screaming from the rooftops about this. It has implications on so many areas, safety (ability?), fatigue, Ts & Cs even perhaps CRM.
Selection should be done on merit, not money. Think about where Ts&Cs might be in 15 years because of it.
Balpa need to be tackling this issue. I was lucky, having not paid for a TR, but I know many who have and many who will. They want to fly, have the licence and the ability, yet the only way that so many of them can do it is by shelling out another wodge.
Many don't have the ability, but money talks.
As airlines realise more and more what a great cost-cutting exercise this is, then we will watch our Ts&Cs go down the swanney.
It is Balpa, and it's members, that should be screaming from the rooftops about this. It has implications on so many areas, safety (ability?), fatigue, Ts & Cs even perhaps CRM.
Selection should be done on merit, not money. Think about where Ts&Cs might be in 15 years because of it.
Thread Starter
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Well i wasn't really hoping for a lets slag FR and all those that pay for type rating debate. I'm just trying to get that first job which has been offered by FR.
Now,
Type Rating : £23,000ish
Accom: £2000
Disclosure: £60
ID: £100
Uniform: £300
Insurance: £150
SEP: £2.40
IAA license: £200
These are what i think are the extra's! If wrong can anyone correct me!
Cheers,
Kempus
Now,
Type Rating : £23,000ish
Accom: £2000
Disclosure: £60
ID: £100
Uniform: £300
Insurance: £150
SEP: £2.40
IAA license: £200
These are what i think are the extra's! If wrong can anyone correct me!
Cheers,
Kempus
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I'm sorry, but speaqking as a mere ATCO, I can't understand what the problem is with people paying for their own flying training. How many airlines now provide full cadet sponsorship? And of those that do, how many places do they offer each year? And I wonder how many people apply for positions when they're advertised?
The pilots complaining on here about people 'prostituting' themselves must be living in a molly coddled dreamworld! I think it takes balls to take that step by putting yourself thousands upon thousands of pounds in debt to chase a dream. I know if I'd done the same thing, I'd take pretty much any job that was offered to me at the end of it!
The pilots complaining on here about people 'prostituting' themselves must be living in a molly coddled dreamworld! I think it takes balls to take that step by putting yourself thousands upon thousands of pounds in debt to chase a dream. I know if I'd done the same thing, I'd take pretty much any job that was offered to me at the end of it!
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It's not so much about the initial training to get your license (CPL with ATPL credit), that of course is up to the individual if he wants to take the chance.
It is more about paying for your type rating after the company has allready decided that they want you, they just dont want to pay for the training you need to work for them.
Translated in the ATC world everyone had to pay for the initial training, thats his personal thing, but now they require you to pay for your on the job training as well.
It is more about paying for your type rating after the company has allready decided that they want you, they just dont want to pay for the training you need to work for them.
Translated in the ATC world everyone had to pay for the initial training, thats his personal thing, but now they require you to pay for your on the job training as well.
Wotmesir?
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Let me give you an example of how this abuse is controlled within the railway industry. There's no shortage of people wanting to train as train drivers either. It costs well over £30k to train an intercity high speed train driver, but you don't see firms offering train type ratings and line training joy rides with the promise of some kind job offer. Why? because the industry is regulated and the unions, upon learning about any such notion, would cripple this country.
As an instructor for train drivers the rot has started to creep in. Potential trainees are paying for the psychometric tests that every driver is required to pass, before they apply to companies. It is nowhere near the amount for a TR but the companies lap it up by claiming it shows commitment. It probably saves them a few hundred quid for each applicant who reaches that stage.
The true costs of training a driver ab initio are closer to £100k when salary and all costs are factored in.
Me, I'll stick with the PPL and enjoy it.
As an instructor for train drivers the rot has started to creep in. Potential trainees are paying for the psychometric tests that every driver is required to pass, before they apply to companies. It is nowhere near the amount for a TR but the companies lap it up by claiming it shows commitment. It probably saves them a few hundred quid for each applicant who reaches that stage.
The true costs of training a driver ab initio are closer to £100k when salary and all costs are factored in.
Me, I'll stick with the PPL and enjoy it.
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00severn
So where did you get the money from to train? For your living expenses or for the 2 pints that put you into an arrogant tirade?
Was it mummy and daddy?
Did they pay?
Or were you lucky enough to get a sponsorship?
Because daddy knows somebody?
Well listern here pal these people who were plumbers and electricians, would be alot better off not having to pay for their course and study part time to eventually get to that position.
How do I know? I have been there. Before that I was an Army Officer, am I lowering the standards? Think again.
There may be a lowering of Ts and Cs, however it is not the fault of the new entry pilots (and I would suggest cadet is saved for the sponsored and intergrated students). These chaps are taking the nonsense from people like Ryanair, working hard and gaining the experience. Then moving on with the natural progression and into better paid jobs. Is that difficult to understand?
They are taking the breaks when they find them.
So where did you get the money from to train? For your living expenses or for the 2 pints that put you into an arrogant tirade?
Was it mummy and daddy?
Did they pay?
Or were you lucky enough to get a sponsorship?
Because daddy knows somebody?
Well listern here pal these people who were plumbers and electricians, would be alot better off not having to pay for their course and study part time to eventually get to that position.
How do I know? I have been there. Before that I was an Army Officer, am I lowering the standards? Think again.
There may be a lowering of Ts and Cs, however it is not the fault of the new entry pilots (and I would suggest cadet is saved for the sponsored and intergrated students). These chaps are taking the nonsense from people like Ryanair, working hard and gaining the experience. Then moving on with the natural progression and into better paid jobs. Is that difficult to understand?
They are taking the breaks when they find them.
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OOsevern,
You sanctimonious b@stard. What's wrong with a plumber or an electrician becoming an airline pilot? I'd much rather have a colleague alongside me who knows a thing or two about sacrifice and hard work than a jumped up tw@t like you.
As for the paying for the TR issue. Well, quite simply, it's those who are within the industry, and have been for some time, who are to blame for the degradation of T's and C's. If experienced airline pilots with a good few years service had taken a stand against this issue when it first reared it's ugly head, young cadets coming through the system would not be getting raped today. And T's and C's wouldn't be falling down the pan either.
Take a good long hard look in the mirror pal because that's where the rot started. Or are you so far up your own @rse that you just fail to see it.
Becoming an airline pilot these days, for someone who wasn't born into money, is probably the most difficult career choice to make. Aside from the aquisition of the CPL/IR there is also the huge expense attached to it and the subsequent risk. Guys nowadays are spending upwards of 100K to get trained so the additional outlay of 23K for a type rating to GUARANTEE that first job is now an expenditure that has to be seriously considered.
You sanctimonious b@stard. What's wrong with a plumber or an electrician becoming an airline pilot? I'd much rather have a colleague alongside me who knows a thing or two about sacrifice and hard work than a jumped up tw@t like you.
As for the paying for the TR issue. Well, quite simply, it's those who are within the industry, and have been for some time, who are to blame for the degradation of T's and C's. If experienced airline pilots with a good few years service had taken a stand against this issue when it first reared it's ugly head, young cadets coming through the system would not be getting raped today. And T's and C's wouldn't be falling down the pan either.
Take a good long hard look in the mirror pal because that's where the rot started. Or are you so far up your own @rse that you just fail to see it.
Becoming an airline pilot these days, for someone who wasn't born into money, is probably the most difficult career choice to make. Aside from the aquisition of the CPL/IR there is also the huge expense attached to it and the subsequent risk. Guys nowadays are spending upwards of 100K to get trained so the additional outlay of 23K for a type rating to GUARANTEE that first job is now an expenditure that has to be seriously considered.
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Bonernow
Thanks for backing me up there.
How can people not even in the industry be blamed for lowering Ts and Cs.
The more that people realise that Ryanair is run as a business then the sooner they will use it for what it is...a stepping stone.
Ish and SOTV
Stand still the centre rank...
Thanks for backing me up there.
How can people not even in the industry be blamed for lowering Ts and Cs.
The more that people realise that Ryanair is run as a business then the sooner they will use it for what it is...a stepping stone.
Ish and SOTV
Stand still the centre rank...
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But guys, the argument is that if Ryanair do it, soon others will follow suit (if it isn't happening already). Ryanair are a force to be reckoned with, they will set trends. Soon you will be calling every other airline in Europe a stepping stone!
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Guys - you make a valid point wrt BALPA not doing enough to oppose self-sponsored TRs - I'm with you all the way on that..........
However, to suggest that in accepting the TRAINING COST of the TR that the EMPLOYER should be paying for in the first place, you are not contributing to the problem is, well, forgive me, ludicrous!!! Flak suit donned..
Apologies for thread creep - will make try to make no further posts on this thread.
However, to suggest that in accepting the TRAINING COST of the TR that the EMPLOYER should be paying for in the first place, you are not contributing to the problem is, well, forgive me, ludicrous!!! Flak suit donned..
Apologies for thread creep - will make try to make no further posts on this thread.
Last edited by sidtheesexist; 26th Sep 2007 at 12:13.
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The ones who did the most damage to T&C's were those that retired at 55yrs with fat pension and took a DEC position elsewhere. This diluted the conditions of everyone below them. I don't notice anyone suggesting they should just stay at home for the sake of the industry.
Age legislation might have changed all that now. Perhaps the demand will improve things for those wanting to get a foot on the bottom rung.
Age legislation might have changed all that now. Perhaps the demand will improve things for those wanting to get a foot on the bottom rung.
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Flyin' Tom.....
You have lost the plot matey.. Or just started flying.. Or probably even both... These retirees who sticj around for a bit are NOT part of the problem..
People who pay for their rating AND take a crap salary are....
You have lost the plot matey.. Or just started flying.. Or probably even both... These retirees who sticj around for a bit are NOT part of the problem..
People who pay for their rating AND take a crap salary are....
When you analyse the Low Cost model, you realise that the costs of the tickets aren't necessarily lower (unelss you get one of the first few discounted tickets on that flight), it's the overheads which are lower. As pilots we are overheads. The company's profits increase as their overheads reduce, but RYR have taken it one step further. Making money out of their employees as well as their passengers! Leo Hairy Camel, sorry - Michael O'Leary has had it good for the last few years since 9/11. He has been employing regualrly while others haven't and his profts have soared - partly due to getting people to pay him to employ them.
However, things are changing. There are a lot more jobs around and pilots are a dwindling resource. In some parts of the world the shortages are having big effects. My (and dragon 501's) company had 2000 Cvs on file two years ago. Now they can't even get people to turn up to the interviews! If RYR keep their policy of getting people to pay, then more and more the company will be a stepping stone - with considerably shorter steps.
Michael O'Leary has done more to harm our profession than anyone in this industry. The tide is turning, let's hope the damage isn't pernament.
However, things are changing. There are a lot more jobs around and pilots are a dwindling resource. In some parts of the world the shortages are having big effects. My (and dragon 501's) company had 2000 Cvs on file two years ago. Now they can't even get people to turn up to the interviews! If RYR keep their policy of getting people to pay, then more and more the company will be a stepping stone - with considerably shorter steps.
Michael O'Leary has done more to harm our profession than anyone in this industry. The tide is turning, let's hope the damage isn't pernament.
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Another quote from 00seven on a different thread:
Do we have an icon that makes the wa**er sign?
Long Haul wide body international flying has always been prestigious and has a high status level. Short haul narrow body flying......well it's no big deal really.
None of the arguments you present above will ever change this obvious perception, because the advent of the low cost industry has tarnished the image/status of the short haul pilot to a level consistent with public transport bus, train and even truck drivers.
Of course, some low cost pilots have themselves to blame because they project an awful image just by the way they wear (or in some cases), dont wear their uniform. We've all seen these guys on the ramps.
It does not inspire much confidence or respect from our customers, but even worse, it devalues the profession of a short haul pilot, hence the low salaries and poor conditions.
None of the arguments you present above will ever change this obvious perception, because the advent of the low cost industry has tarnished the image/status of the short haul pilot to a level consistent with public transport bus, train and even truck drivers.
Of course, some low cost pilots have themselves to blame because they project an awful image just by the way they wear (or in some cases), dont wear their uniform. We've all seen these guys on the ramps.
It does not inspire much confidence or respect from our customers, but even worse, it devalues the profession of a short haul pilot, hence the low salaries and poor conditions.
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(Posted Yesterday 17:56) Michael O'Leary has done more to harm our profession than anyone in this industry. The tide is turning, let's hope the damage isn't pernament.
Before MOL came along with the pay to play scheme, there was and still is Tom Cooper from Gulfstream Airlines a Continental Regional. Students from Europe flocked to his school with a bunch of Euros to train from the Cessnas up to the Beech 1900s.
Then Henry George from Simcenter of MIA came along. His program which cost $33,000 gave 250 hour pilot the opportunity to acquire a Flight Engineer Turbo-jet certificate. The individual would sit at the F/E's panel on the B-727 for six months. Then the individual would return to the training center to upgrade to the right seat and fly 200 hours as a first.
Lets not forget the Comair Academy either... as they are a part of the pay to play scheme too.
Before MOL came along with the pay to play scheme, there was and still is Tom Cooper from Gulfstream Airlines a Continental Regional. Students from Europe flocked to his school with a bunch of Euros to train from the Cessnas up to the Beech 1900s.
Then Henry George from Simcenter of MIA came along. His program which cost $33,000 gave 250 hour pilot the opportunity to acquire a Flight Engineer Turbo-jet certificate. The individual would sit at the F/E's panel on the B-727 for six months. Then the individual would return to the training center to upgrade to the right seat and fly 200 hours as a first.
Lets not forget the Comair Academy either... as they are a part of the pay to play scheme too.
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any NetJets pilots ?
hello guys, i would like to know more about NetJets inside...i have had a look on their website, and everything looks so nice their, is it real ?
thanks
thanks
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There's a very informative thread on Ryanair Cadet contracts/Ts & Cs on the 2nd of the 2 wannabee threads - sobering stuff indeed and I am v thankful that I didn't go down that particular route................ 