Thomas Cook Pilots set for Industrial Action ?
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Thomas Cook Pilots set for Industrial Action ?
Any truth in a rumour I heard today that Thomas Cook pilots are to be balloted for industrial action regarding attempts by the company to demote and make redundant full-time UK pilots whilst at the same time bring in seasonal Canadian contract Captains and F/Os ?
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This winter (07/08) TCX pilots are going to fly in both the LHS and RHS for Skyservice.
This arrangement benefits pilots in both airlines.
In fact this year some temporary Captains in the TCX Group may well keep their commands by volunteering to go to Canada.
Industrial action, I would seriously hope not.
This arrangement benefits pilots in both airlines.
In fact this year some temporary Captains in the TCX Group may well keep their commands by volunteering to go to Canada.
Industrial action, I would seriously hope not.
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Say Again?
Rubbish, NACUD...your viewpoint identifies you as one of the new management lackeys, of which thankfully there are only a few. I grant, however, you are fully entitled to your opinion, and to express it.
The mood in both pilot workforces of the to-be-merged airline is indeed militant, and feelings are running high for a number of reasons. Most sensitive is the threat of redundancies and demotions, whilst hired hands from Canada work here in Summer. The winter offset argument holds no water. Other bones of contention exist, and they are by no means trivial. The level of trust in the new pilot and airline management is at a minimum.
The mood in both pilot workforces of the to-be-merged airline is indeed militant, and feelings are running high for a number of reasons. Most sensitive is the threat of redundancies and demotions, whilst hired hands from Canada work here in Summer. The winter offset argument holds no water. Other bones of contention exist, and they are by no means trivial. The level of trust in the new pilot and airline management is at a minimum.
Last edited by RoyHudd; 14th Sep 2007 at 18:36.
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I wasn't aware there were temporary Captains at TCX. It seems to me strange that the aircraft are not dry-leased to one another and rather churlish to demote and fire UK pilots only to replenish them with Canadian contract pilots.
I'd say that if these are the company's plans, then it is heading for a Public Relations disaster.
I'd say that if these are the company's plans, then it is heading for a Public Relations disaster.
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How about having a word in the shell-like's of the UK/EU people that issue work permits, surely UK/EU person(s) cannot be put on the dole whilst Canadians or whoever move in to take their jobs!
No wonder the UK is in such the state that it is.
No wonder the UK is in such the state that it is.
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Just to correct a minor point Hudd, I have nothing to do with management. However, I do want the merger to be a success, as do, I suspect the vast majority of pilots in both airlines. I have yet to experience any of the militancy that you claim exists. Most people understand the rationale for the merger and the short term pain that goes with it.
The future for both companies is now much brighter and providing Balpa and the Company both approach the consultations with a positive outlook we will all benefit in the long run.
What I will not do is allow the spreading of false rumours and innuendo to go unchallenged by a few individuals with their own agenda.
The nature of mergers is that there are job losses and now that the number is down to 73 from 100 I suspect that no pilot will be made compulsory redundant and all who leave will do so voluntarily.
Please explain why the “winter offset argument holds no water”.
CS. MYT part of the TCX Group has 5 temporary captains this summer.
The future for both companies is now much brighter and providing Balpa and the Company both approach the consultations with a positive outlook we will all benefit in the long run.
What I will not do is allow the spreading of false rumours and innuendo to go unchallenged by a few individuals with their own agenda.
The nature of mergers is that there are job losses and now that the number is down to 73 from 100 I suspect that no pilot will be made compulsory redundant and all who leave will do so voluntarily.
Please explain why the “winter offset argument holds no water”.
CS. MYT part of the TCX Group has 5 temporary captains this summer.
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What I will not do is allow the spreading of false rumours and innuendo to go unchallenged by a few individuals with their own agenda.
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70, it is not a question of condoning redundancies or demotions, but when companies in any industry unite, including aviation, individuals are going to be disadvantaged. Companies merge to become more efficient and in some cases to ensure survival. Regrettably there will almost always be casualties along the way, from all parts of the merging companies.
These situations need to be handled with care and consideration by all parties involved in the negotiations.
As a reminder MYT have had a long association with Skyservice, who were part of the MyTravel North American business and are now within the TCX Group. Thomas Cook is a global business.
Is it not hypocritical to expect and allow UK pilots to go to Canada in the winter and reject a reciprocal agreement whereby Canadians are not allowed to come here? First Choice have also been sending pilots to Canada, along with MYT for quite a number of years and for certain individuals, who may have taken advantage to spend a winter in Canada to now get on their high horse smacks of double standards.
These situations need to be handled with care and consideration by all parties involved in the negotiations.
As a reminder MYT have had a long association with Skyservice, who were part of the MyTravel North American business and are now within the TCX Group. Thomas Cook is a global business.
Is it not hypocritical to expect and allow UK pilots to go to Canada in the winter and reject a reciprocal agreement whereby Canadians are not allowed to come here? First Choice have also been sending pilots to Canada, along with MYT for quite a number of years and for certain individuals, who may have taken advantage to spend a winter in Canada to now get on their high horse smacks of double standards.
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As I suggested earlier, why are the aircraft not just dry-leased to one another ?
I have to say I am not a fan of these leasing arrangements. It seems to me that it is a way of getting more productivity out of pilots in the off season, benefits a select chosen few who want extra money and means career progression for First Officers is stifled whilst employment prospects for UK pilots is reduced.
I hope what I've been hearing doesn't come to fruition for all involved at TCX, but it seems the new group DFO has a history of bullying. That may well have worked when MYT was on its knees not so long ago and employees were grateful to still have a job. None of my business really, I have no connection with either airline, but I understand that the resolve amongst the Thomas Cook pilots is that they are not going to take demotions and redundancies lightly whilst foreign pilots are drafted in.
I believe not so long ago, before the merger, the company was forced to back down over the issue of LHS foreigners coming across. I understand the same level of anger exists this time round.
I have to say I am not a fan of these leasing arrangements. It seems to me that it is a way of getting more productivity out of pilots in the off season, benefits a select chosen few who want extra money and means career progression for First Officers is stifled whilst employment prospects for UK pilots is reduced.
I hope what I've been hearing doesn't come to fruition for all involved at TCX, but it seems the new group DFO has a history of bullying. That may well have worked when MYT was on its knees not so long ago and employees were grateful to still have a job. None of my business really, I have no connection with either airline, but I understand that the resolve amongst the Thomas Cook pilots is that they are not going to take demotions and redundancies lightly whilst foreign pilots are drafted in.
I believe not so long ago, before the merger, the company was forced to back down over the issue of LHS foreigners coming across. I understand the same level of anger exists this time round.
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NACUD go home...and learn..
I feel sad to read your aggressive modern thoughts.
The agenda is of the 100 (73 is just a rumour) because they will lose their jobs. That's what drives them. Unsurprisingly.
Behind them follow those additional loyal folk now due demotions and/or relocations. That's a piffling percentage of the work force in your books, perhaps 25%, but behind these 160+ people lie income, dependant wives/husbands and children and relatives and families and teachers and friends and homes and pets and schools, in fact the solid basis for their present stable lives.
How can you pontificate on commercial gains, whilst riding rough-shod over those who are to suffer on the sacrificial altar of ROI and IBT? And then have the audacity to write of double standards. And justify the commercial gain with pain. Not yours, my friend.
Shame on you. There is absolutely no need for pilot job losses, as well you know. As do the guys and gals at MYT and TCX.
Giving out the mantra of better airline/more security, etc is deceitful and dishonest, Mr. NACUD. The new, successful company, for which all its selected employees wish, need not replace a chunk of its existing loyal pilot work force with contract pilots, expat opportunists, a flow of well-meaning, vastly inexperienced and recently-proven dangerous cadets, along with Canadian job-swappers. This is smoke and mirrors, as well you know.But you will continue, I am sure.Forget humans, worship profit.
The enormous bonuses of the managers you so admire explain your position. And you will probably succeed.
Bravo.
The agenda is of the 100 (73 is just a rumour) because they will lose their jobs. That's what drives them. Unsurprisingly.
Behind them follow those additional loyal folk now due demotions and/or relocations. That's a piffling percentage of the work force in your books, perhaps 25%, but behind these 160+ people lie income, dependant wives/husbands and children and relatives and families and teachers and friends and homes and pets and schools, in fact the solid basis for their present stable lives.
How can you pontificate on commercial gains, whilst riding rough-shod over those who are to suffer on the sacrificial altar of ROI and IBT? And then have the audacity to write of double standards. And justify the commercial gain with pain. Not yours, my friend.
Shame on you. There is absolutely no need for pilot job losses, as well you know. As do the guys and gals at MYT and TCX.
Giving out the mantra of better airline/more security, etc is deceitful and dishonest, Mr. NACUD. The new, successful company, for which all its selected employees wish, need not replace a chunk of its existing loyal pilot work force with contract pilots, expat opportunists, a flow of well-meaning, vastly inexperienced and recently-proven dangerous cadets, along with Canadian job-swappers. This is smoke and mirrors, as well you know.But you will continue, I am sure.Forget humans, worship profit.
The enormous bonuses of the managers you so admire explain your position. And you will probably succeed.
Bravo.
Last edited by RoyHudd; 14th Sep 2007 at 20:50.
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"Dangerous Cadets" Eh?
Everyone has to start out somewhere, were you solving equasions in the first few years at primary school?
I don't think its fair to band about hardship faced by the currently employed and their dependents and in the same breath suggest a lot of newly qualified guys shouldn't be given a nod.
As for this issue with the Canadians, I think its safe to assume that there is a lot more to it than is currently being discussed on here. Possibly existing contracts or agreements set in stone years ago.
I must admit, I'd prefer it if the UK industry was protected a bit more for UK citizens as it seems to be in every other European state (even though its illegal to openly admit it, they get round it).
It may be of use with this thread if all posters form now state if they are employed by either MYT or TCX as it adds a level of credibility to their argument (as in the case of Seven Fifty Seven).
Me, I'm employed by neither.
Everyone has to start out somewhere, were you solving equasions in the first few years at primary school?
I don't think its fair to band about hardship faced by the currently employed and their dependents and in the same breath suggest a lot of newly qualified guys shouldn't be given a nod.
As for this issue with the Canadians, I think its safe to assume that there is a lot more to it than is currently being discussed on here. Possibly existing contracts or agreements set in stone years ago.
I must admit, I'd prefer it if the UK industry was protected a bit more for UK citizens as it seems to be in every other European state (even though its illegal to openly admit it, they get round it).
It may be of use with this thread if all posters form now state if they are employed by either MYT or TCX as it adds a level of credibility to their argument (as in the case of Seven Fifty Seven).
Me, I'm employed by neither.
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Hudd,
The figure 73 is now on the Balpa web site which I understand is the reduced number after the initial consultations. It may even fall further.
Please explain your rationale for no job losses. The fleet size is being reduced by 4 aircraft and the combined airline, especially the long haul fleet, will be able to operate more efficiently. Out of interest there are quite a number of pilots hoping for a generous redundancy package and if the Company has any sense they will provide one. Others will see it as an opportunity and take the package on offer and move to pastures new. 4 years ago no individual was made compulsory redundant from MYT and I expect the same will happen this time.
All of us in MYT, me included, and TCX face an uncertain and difficult few months while we wait for all the issues surrounding the merger to be announced.
Please don’t demean the cadet pilots. All those that remain have done extremely well and operate to very high standards. Balpa agreed to a limited number as part of the pilot work force. All of them will be seeking alternative employment this winter.
You seem to indicate that companies do not have to make a profit. They are a necessary evil. Try asking those individuals who worked for over 70 UK airlines that have gone bust in the last 50 years and were forced to seek alternative employment. No company has a god given right to exist.
One area that we may agree on is that management bonuses are excessive and on many occasions are not justified. Unfortunately, most of management within British industry is inflicted with this disease.
The figure 73 is now on the Balpa web site which I understand is the reduced number after the initial consultations. It may even fall further.
Please explain your rationale for no job losses. The fleet size is being reduced by 4 aircraft and the combined airline, especially the long haul fleet, will be able to operate more efficiently. Out of interest there are quite a number of pilots hoping for a generous redundancy package and if the Company has any sense they will provide one. Others will see it as an opportunity and take the package on offer and move to pastures new. 4 years ago no individual was made compulsory redundant from MYT and I expect the same will happen this time.
All of us in MYT, me included, and TCX face an uncertain and difficult few months while we wait for all the issues surrounding the merger to be announced.
Please don’t demean the cadet pilots. All those that remain have done extremely well and operate to very high standards. Balpa agreed to a limited number as part of the pilot work force. All of them will be seeking alternative employment this winter.
You seem to indicate that companies do not have to make a profit. They are a necessary evil. Try asking those individuals who worked for over 70 UK airlines that have gone bust in the last 50 years and were forced to seek alternative employment. No company has a god given right to exist.
One area that we may agree on is that management bonuses are excessive and on many occasions are not justified. Unfortunately, most of management within British industry is inflicted with this disease.
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NACUD Balpa did not agree to any cadets as part of the pilot workforce, they are not counted towards total pilot numbers. As for your assertion that they will be looking for jobs elsewhere again you may be wrong, you wont have to wait too long to find out.
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NACUD
Sorry chum - I just don't buy it that you are not connected with management....
The spin, the euphemisms, the cold indifference to colleague's and their families lives being uneccessarily shattered...
No my friend, you are so management you either are, or are closely connected to, someone who's name ironically suggests wisdom of biblical magnitude..
Shame on you.
Sorry chum - I just don't buy it that you are not connected with management....
The spin, the euphemisms, the cold indifference to colleague's and their families lives being uneccessarily shattered...
No my friend, you are so management you either are, or are closely connected to, someone who's name ironically suggests wisdom of biblical magnitude..
Shame on you.
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Bullshot,
Bullseye. Reckon you have the measure of our colleague above.
Seven fifty seven,
I have to disagree. Feelings are running high across plenty of the bases and the call to be balloted on industrial action is getting louder.
What I just don't understand is the proposed number of redundancies and demotions, given that the plan to return the 3 TCX aircraft was established nearly 12 months ago. There's no way 'synergies' are gonna equate to saving 70+ plus pilots.
Bullseye. Reckon you have the measure of our colleague above.
Seven fifty seven,
I have to disagree. Feelings are running high across plenty of the bases and the call to be balloted on industrial action is getting louder.
What I just don't understand is the proposed number of redundancies and demotions, given that the plan to return the 3 TCX aircraft was established nearly 12 months ago. There's no way 'synergies' are gonna equate to saving 70+ plus pilots.