Thomas Cook Pilots set for Industrial Action ?
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Sorry to disappoint, but I am not in management, never have been and have no desire to be.
Torque2, you may wish to check with the CC to confirm that they have allowed the Company to employ up to 16 cadets at anyone time. Around 12 are currently flying with MYT. If you wish to discuss the morality of what the Company is doing by way of charging over £30,000 for a type conversion and 150 hours of line training, before being paid for gainful employment, then we may be in agreement. All the cadets leave at the end of October and as you say the Company is trying to find employment for them.
Strange, how when anyone voices a different view or disagrees with what is perceived to be in line with normal pilot opinion they are denigrated and vilified. Not to worry, I guess it is part of life’s rich pattern that one has to accept.
By all means continue to take shots in my direction, but you may also wish to consider that 3 directors in TCX were awarded approximately £200,000 of shares for being responsible for the successful merger, in addition to purchasing £1.8m of shares for future bonuses, while at the same time announcing 2300 redundancies.
As Lima or Alpha Junk mentioned this subject raises serious issues and it is sad that the debate has already headed south. I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with what I have written. We all have opinions and hopefully are free to express them without the vitriol that is sometimes directed at those who beg to differ.
Lima and others, you may wish to consider how our industry has changed over the last 20 years. Companies, such as UK inclusive tour operators with their own airlines are now global and part of their assets are planes and pilots. It seems to make sense that these assets are moved around the business to take advantage of high and low seasons in the different countries that they do business. Using the MYT example you say:
“How anyone can justify making redundancies whilst Canadians are able to come in and earn extra money in their quiet period is beyond me.”
As a reminder MYT as well as FCA pilots go to Canada and have done for a number of years during our quiet periods. (Even during the period when Canadian airlines such as Canada 3000, were going out of business) Would you be happy that these opportunities are not available to UK pilots? There has never been any lack of volunteers and I suspect this winter will be no different. I think it also needs to be considered that if there was no exchange of pilots between Skyservice and MYT there is a possibility that both companies may fully crew for their busy seasons and lay off pilots in their quiet season. I, for one hope that the charter industry never treats pilots in the same way as it does seasonal cabin crew, some of whom are in their 5th season as a temporary with MYT. Is it not better to have pilots fully employed throughout the year so that not only do they remain flying but can also join a companies pension scheme after 6 months service?
I agree that it does seem that the UK is not as robust as other countries when it comes to employing nationals, but I would venture to suggest that far more UK pilots work overseas than do foreigners in this country. And while this is no comfort to those seeking their first flying job we need to be careful that we do not become too hidebound by our perceptions and keep an open mind, while remembering that many of us now work for a global company.
History has taught us that the harsh reality of the industry we work in has far more failures than successes and as I approach doubles figures on the number of experiences I have had with failed airlines or redundancies I find it difficult to accept lectures from those who take the moral high ground.
Torque2, you may wish to check with the CC to confirm that they have allowed the Company to employ up to 16 cadets at anyone time. Around 12 are currently flying with MYT. If you wish to discuss the morality of what the Company is doing by way of charging over £30,000 for a type conversion and 150 hours of line training, before being paid for gainful employment, then we may be in agreement. All the cadets leave at the end of October and as you say the Company is trying to find employment for them.
Strange, how when anyone voices a different view or disagrees with what is perceived to be in line with normal pilot opinion they are denigrated and vilified. Not to worry, I guess it is part of life’s rich pattern that one has to accept.
By all means continue to take shots in my direction, but you may also wish to consider that 3 directors in TCX were awarded approximately £200,000 of shares for being responsible for the successful merger, in addition to purchasing £1.8m of shares for future bonuses, while at the same time announcing 2300 redundancies.
As Lima or Alpha Junk mentioned this subject raises serious issues and it is sad that the debate has already headed south. I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with what I have written. We all have opinions and hopefully are free to express them without the vitriol that is sometimes directed at those who beg to differ.
Lima and others, you may wish to consider how our industry has changed over the last 20 years. Companies, such as UK inclusive tour operators with their own airlines are now global and part of their assets are planes and pilots. It seems to make sense that these assets are moved around the business to take advantage of high and low seasons in the different countries that they do business. Using the MYT example you say:
“How anyone can justify making redundancies whilst Canadians are able to come in and earn extra money in their quiet period is beyond me.”
As a reminder MYT as well as FCA pilots go to Canada and have done for a number of years during our quiet periods. (Even during the period when Canadian airlines such as Canada 3000, were going out of business) Would you be happy that these opportunities are not available to UK pilots? There has never been any lack of volunteers and I suspect this winter will be no different. I think it also needs to be considered that if there was no exchange of pilots between Skyservice and MYT there is a possibility that both companies may fully crew for their busy seasons and lay off pilots in their quiet season. I, for one hope that the charter industry never treats pilots in the same way as it does seasonal cabin crew, some of whom are in their 5th season as a temporary with MYT. Is it not better to have pilots fully employed throughout the year so that not only do they remain flying but can also join a companies pension scheme after 6 months service?
I agree that it does seem that the UK is not as robust as other countries when it comes to employing nationals, but I would venture to suggest that far more UK pilots work overseas than do foreigners in this country. And while this is no comfort to those seeking their first flying job we need to be careful that we do not become too hidebound by our perceptions and keep an open mind, while remembering that many of us now work for a global company.
History has taught us that the harsh reality of the industry we work in has far more failures than successes and as I approach doubles figures on the number of experiences I have had with failed airlines or redundancies I find it difficult to accept lectures from those who take the moral high ground.
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where is this NACUD guy coming from.....of course people are concerned when an unsecure future becons.......the older guys will want to take a generous severance package...maybe,if it suits their plans,the benefit being that plenty of jobs for 757/bus pilots are out there and a generous payoff puts them in a very nice position.having said that,the majority are well under 55 and are hoping for many more years plodding to the regular destinations and accruing pension and seniority......situations like this give us all sleepless nights.
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NACUD the cadet pilots are not employed as line pilots or replace any line pilot, the CC is quite clear on the matter. The company WANTED to use the cadets in the actual pilot headcount but it has never happened.
I am not in favour of extracting monies for line sectors but the company will continue to do it whilst they can turn a dollar, even though they say differently
I am not in favour of extracting monies for line sectors but the company will continue to do it whilst they can turn a dollar, even though they say differently
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Lima,
In TCX it may have been the same faces, in MYT it was not and over the years due to various reasons both senior and junior pilots had the opportunity of going to Canada. In fact some of those at the very bottom of the seniority list have done a number of detachments.
If dry leases became the norm what would you do with the surplus pilots who remained in the UK?
I would suggest that as we move forward with the merger the subject of reciprocal arrangements between airlines within the TCX Group will be high on the agenda of the CC. I suggest you make you views known to them as they will be negotiating on our behalf. I just happen to believe that to date the arrangement between Skyservice and MYT has benefited all parties and unless I am convinced otherwise it will continue to do so for the long term.
As far as my position is concerned I wait to hear how I may be affected. Until announcements are made and the merger of the seniority lists is decided no one can be sure how they will be affected. In a previous life I have twice been in the firing line for redundancy and suffered when companies have gone bust or been taken over.
As far as your assumption that individuals “are being demoted out of base” I would be grateful for an explanation as nothing has yet been announced and I think at this stage it is premature to make assumptions.
There may also be no compulsory dismissals if enough volunteers opt for voluntary redundancy. More importantly, if the Company has got any sense it will offer a generous package to senior Captains and if enough take up the offer there may even be promotions next summer or at the very least junior captains may retain their commands. I understand that the CC is working hard to persuade the Company of the benefit of this to both the morale of the pilots and the reduced future wage bill.
In TCX it may have been the same faces, in MYT it was not and over the years due to various reasons both senior and junior pilots had the opportunity of going to Canada. In fact some of those at the very bottom of the seniority list have done a number of detachments.
If dry leases became the norm what would you do with the surplus pilots who remained in the UK?
I would suggest that as we move forward with the merger the subject of reciprocal arrangements between airlines within the TCX Group will be high on the agenda of the CC. I suggest you make you views known to them as they will be negotiating on our behalf. I just happen to believe that to date the arrangement between Skyservice and MYT has benefited all parties and unless I am convinced otherwise it will continue to do so for the long term.
As far as my position is concerned I wait to hear how I may be affected. Until announcements are made and the merger of the seniority lists is decided no one can be sure how they will be affected. In a previous life I have twice been in the firing line for redundancy and suffered when companies have gone bust or been taken over.
As far as your assumption that individuals “are being demoted out of base” I would be grateful for an explanation as nothing has yet been announced and I think at this stage it is premature to make assumptions.
There may also be no compulsory dismissals if enough volunteers opt for voluntary redundancy. More importantly, if the Company has got any sense it will offer a generous package to senior Captains and if enough take up the offer there may even be promotions next summer or at the very least junior captains may retain their commands. I understand that the CC is working hard to persuade the Company of the benefit of this to both the morale of the pilots and the reduced future wage bill.
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its not right. if canadian pilots were looseing there jobs there is no way you would be aloud to go and work there, so it works both ways. thomas cook gain by cheap labour and getting rid of exspensive british pilots, good luck with balpa they wont do much, we have had this for years in my airline, and we are laying pilots of Oh and next yyeasr 4 canadian aircraft will fly for us, as I say cheap pilots.
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NACUD
I have to agree with LA. You are clearly in the LHS for MYT far enough up the seniority list to remain unaffected. I sincerely hope your sentiments are not shared throughout MYT.
It sounds like you have your bags packed for Winnipeg already for this winter!!
I have to agree with LA. You are clearly in the LHS for MYT far enough up the seniority list to remain unaffected. I sincerely hope your sentiments are not shared throughout MYT.
It sounds like you have your bags packed for Winnipeg already for this winter!!
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Something still doesn't quite add up regarding NACUD's 'non-management' status.
Perhaps he is not management - perhaps he is a Director! Now - that would be a solumn one!
I am in any case encouraged that his (and our) colleagues in MYT are not queueing up to share his enthusiasm to see some of our Pilots "disadvantaged".
Thanks Guys & look forward to operating with you.
Perhaps he is not management - perhaps he is a Director! Now - that would be a solumn one!
I am in any case encouraged that his (and our) colleagues in MYT are not queueing up to share his enthusiasm to see some of our Pilots "disadvantaged".
Thanks Guys & look forward to operating with you.
I Have Control
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NACUD's statements are not representative of the MYT pilot workforce, to put it mildly. This is intended for TCUK people, not to provoke another inhuman response from the afore-mentioned twit
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Whilst I am not standing alongside NACUD I do not see how
works in favour of the guys already in - surely it just means the co. lays off more guys total (to meet the now reduced winter requirement) and is then taking on temp summer pilots that are not necessarily those already in the company who are about to lose their jobs. Please can you explain how this is going to work to our advantage?
If the company is unable to find new markets in the winter, then temporary summer pilots is the solution not foreign guys drafted in on recipricol agreements to the benefit of a few individuals whose work line is picked up by those remaining.
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Seems that our colleagues in Condor may have a fight on their hands as well. The synergy word is in there somewhere!
www.thomascookgroup.com
Merger of Condor and Air Berlin announced.
www.thomascookgroup.com
Merger of Condor and Air Berlin announced.
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Out of interest...when was the last mytravel pilot promoted PERMANENTLY to the LHS?
And it begars belief to think NACUD even mentioned the fact that there may be promotions next year??
....yes there may be, but if there is to be..it will only be guys that are being repromoted??
50....demotions....thats got to be AT LEAST 5-6 years worth of promotions....so Captians that have been made up since 2001 would be at threat. Add that to the current wait for a tcx command (9 years) and your looking at 14-15 years for job in the LHS. THATS BA FIGURES!! For a fraction of the wage!!!
How exactly is that benefiting the pilot communtity in the long term??
And it begars belief to think NACUD even mentioned the fact that there may be promotions next year??
....yes there may be, but if there is to be..it will only be guys that are being repromoted??
50....demotions....thats got to be AT LEAST 5-6 years worth of promotions....so Captians that have been made up since 2001 would be at threat. Add that to the current wait for a tcx command (9 years) and your looking at 14-15 years for job in the LHS. THATS BA FIGURES!! For a fraction of the wage!!!
How exactly is that benefiting the pilot communtity in the long term??
Last edited by randomair; 20th Sep 2007 at 17:37.