BA and BALPA already agreed on EU 757 Pilots
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OK. Seeing as my question is being ignored, I will answer it myself.
The GO pilots were never on the BA seniority list. Therefore, you weren't worried about setting up a COMPETING AIRLINE IN LONDON, LET ALONE EUROPE......
If you didn't demand this in GO, then why now?
The GO pilots were never on the BA seniority list. Therefore, you weren't worried about setting up a COMPETING AIRLINE IN LONDON, LET ALONE EUROPE......
If you didn't demand this in GO, then why now?
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Question about BA Cityflyer: Are they on the Master Seniority List?
"BA Cityflyer is a wholly owned subsidiary of British Airways and operates all UK and European services to and from London City airport."
PL will also be a wholly owned subsidiary of British Airways and operate services to and from mainland airports. They won't even touch UK soil.
"BA Cityflyer is a wholly owned subsidiary of British Airways and operates all UK and European services to and from London City airport."
PL will also be a wholly owned subsidiary of British Airways and operate services to and from mainland airports. They won't even touch UK soil.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Were the Go pilots on any BA master seniority list? If not, has a precedent been set?
IMHO, the same should have applied to BA Regional however the Scope agreement previously allowed for sub-100 seat aircraft to be outsourced away from LHR and LGW (BA Connect initially and subsequently CitiExpress). They have some seconded mainline Captains.
BA World Cargo (GSS) seconded mainline commands are limited to 2/3rds of GSS commands and the agreement is that all the BAWC flying will be brought back to mainline if there becomes a requirement for more than four 747-400s.
Last edited by Human Factor; 4th Jan 2008 at 14:32.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Seconded commands from mainline have always been on the table, which would mean similar prospects to the GSS co-pilots, ie. less opportunities for an upgrade.
Those who have applied for the RHS of BA European may yet end up on the mainline list with access to the rest of BA if they want it, depending how negotiations go, I suppose. That in itself is probably a good incentive to be there.
However, as you suggest, I can't imagine a great number of applications for the RHS of knackered old 757s with little prospect of a command. Still, horses for courses......
Edited to add: Even if the BA European pilots end up on the mainline seniority list, BA European will remain a junior fleet which means an upgrade is likely to be possible in a reasonably short time (similar to, if not quicker than, the 737 at LGW) and significantly less than the fifteen or more to a longhaul command at LHR. If the BA European pilots aren't on the seniority list, the seconded commands from mainline will prevent many of those swaps. Ironically, a command on a BA European 757 is likely to be quicker if the pilots are on the mainline list!!
Those who have applied for the RHS of BA European may yet end up on the mainline list with access to the rest of BA if they want it, depending how negotiations go, I suppose. That in itself is probably a good incentive to be there.
However, as you suggest, I can't imagine a great number of applications for the RHS of knackered old 757s with little prospect of a command. Still, horses for courses......
Edited to add: Even if the BA European pilots end up on the mainline seniority list, BA European will remain a junior fleet which means an upgrade is likely to be possible in a reasonably short time (similar to, if not quicker than, the 737 at LGW) and significantly less than the fifteen or more to a longhaul command at LHR. If the BA European pilots aren't on the seniority list, the seconded commands from mainline will prevent many of those swaps. Ironically, a command on a BA European 757 is likely to be quicker if the pilots are on the mainline list!!
Last edited by Human Factor; 4th Jan 2008 at 14:49.
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Human Factor,
And the Go 737's were not mainline aircraft? So what if Go were a low cost airline?
Is that not what PL is trying to be? In a country outside the UK and possibly outside SCOPE?
And the Go 737's were not mainline aircraft? So what if Go were a low cost airline?
Is that not what PL is trying to be? In a country outside the UK and possibly outside SCOPE?
Last edited by stansdead; 4th Jan 2008 at 15:10. Reason: spelling
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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And the Go 737's were not mainline aircraft?
CityFlyer operates an aircraft that has been operated by mainline at Gatwick.
Like I said, mainline product, mainline aircraft so mainline pilots.
FWIW, I don't think there should be any requirement for Scope. All BA flying (the sadly demised BA Connect, BA Cityflyer, BA World Cargo and BA European) should be flown by pilots on the mainline seniority list.
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IF a pilot for PL accepts a position based on lower terms and conditions than BA mainline and is happy to do so, based on the prospect of open competition for command then thats fine,but if he/she gets the BA mainline seniority list and standard PL terms and conditions then I see it as BA /BALPA pilots just looking after themselves.
If BALPA want to force the seniority list on PL pilots then why not the same T&C's as BA mainline?
I would'nt want a LHR base ever! and would decline PL if a BA seniority list is imposed.
I have no issue with BA pilots looking after themselves but lets not mask it as anything else.
If BALPA want to force the seniority list on PL pilots then why not the same T&C's as BA mainline?
I would'nt want a LHR base ever! and would decline PL if a BA seniority list is imposed.
I have no issue with BA pilots looking after themselves but lets not mask it as anything else.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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...based on the prospect of open competition for command...
If BALPA want to force the seniority list on PL pilots then why not the same T&C's as BA mainline?
I would'nt want a LHR base ever! and would decline PL if a BA seniority list is imposed.
I have no issue with BA pilots looking after themselves but lets not mask it as anything else.
Two words: Qantas and Jetstar.
Night.
Last edited by Human Factor; 4th Jan 2008 at 23:27.
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I think it was probably because Big BA paid for Go. Which was a bit rich coming from Stelios. Didn't his old man give him a massive interest free 'loan'?
The two networks never really crossed and operated in two different markets which is why there was concern expressed at the time, but not the tub-thumping that we see now.
DickChomh said:
Do you honestly believe that it would be any other way? I'm not aware of any BA pilots claiming that this fight is for the benefit of anyone but the BA pilots themselves.
The Base is dire, I'll grant you that; but once you're away from LHR the operation is usually fine. Just LHR-itis. I think you would be making a mistake by declining PL if/when we end up with a common seniority list for the reasons explained above by HF and myself. You will benefit financially & under BidLine if you work from LHR. However, that in itself is a side-issue and is not the reason we are having this dispute.
Do as most of our LH pilots do and commute from Europe. There is no reason, should you wish, for you to live in the South East if you stay LH. Even SH is commute-able, and with the new Jeppeson software scheduled to come online later this year trip swopping 'should' become a whole lot easier.
Good luck & best wishes
ID
The two networks never really crossed and operated in two different markets which is why there was concern expressed at the time, but not the tub-thumping that we see now.
DickChomh said:
I see it as BA /BALPA pilots just looking after themselves.
I would'nt want a LHR base ever! and would decline PL if a BA seniority list is imposed.
Do as most of our LH pilots do and commute from Europe. There is no reason, should you wish, for you to live in the South East if you stay LH. Even SH is commute-able, and with the new Jeppeson software scheduled to come online later this year trip swopping 'should' become a whole lot easier.
Good luck & best wishes
ID
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The LT are going to get their fingers very burnt over this. Just imagine if the proposal was for mainline aircraft to fly from Manchester to JFK, using the BA brand, but with Polish aircrew.
Would BALPA's position of 'fine, you can even pay them less, but they must join on the seniority list' be even remotely surprising - indeed it would seem a bit mild!
As we are in the EU, there is absolutely no difference between basing these mainline aircraft at MCT or BRU/MAD - and therefore BALPA's position is not just unsurprising, it is entirely right and understandable.
Previous 'examples' have no bearing on this at all - Go was not using the brand/aircraft of mainline, the various regional operators were really just the b*****d offspring of 9/11 when the whole operation was on life support (bit different now with a 10%+ profit margin on £500m+ profits).
I wouldn't argue for a second that I am looking after anyone but my fellow BA pilots and me - but funnily enough our position benefits anyone joining PL without any downside - as has been explained, being on the seniority list doesn't force you to do anything, it merely opens up options.
For what its worth, I reckon the new 787's will go to PL before mainline. How else are BA going to attract people off our competitors - using 20 year old 757's at the limit of their range? I think not.
Would BALPA's position of 'fine, you can even pay them less, but they must join on the seniority list' be even remotely surprising - indeed it would seem a bit mild!
As we are in the EU, there is absolutely no difference between basing these mainline aircraft at MCT or BRU/MAD - and therefore BALPA's position is not just unsurprising, it is entirely right and understandable.
Previous 'examples' have no bearing on this at all - Go was not using the brand/aircraft of mainline, the various regional operators were really just the b*****d offspring of 9/11 when the whole operation was on life support (bit different now with a 10%+ profit margin on £500m+ profits).
I wouldn't argue for a second that I am looking after anyone but my fellow BA pilots and me - but funnily enough our position benefits anyone joining PL without any downside - as has been explained, being on the seniority list doesn't force you to do anything, it merely opens up options.
For what its worth, I reckon the new 787's will go to PL before mainline. How else are BA going to attract people off our competitors - using 20 year old 757's at the limit of their range? I think not.
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I find it peculiar the potential PL pilots are so upset about the possibility of mainline pilots bidding for PL commands on seniority. Notwithstanding the fact that virtually nobody in mainline BA is likely to do it, have they not read the T+Cs of PL? BA reserve the right to employ direct entry captains and have offered command secondments to BA mainline pilots. Any other promotion in Lauren will be on merit, not seniority. Which in BA terms means that if you don't kiss the right backsides you're never going to see a command. I'd rather take my chances with a seniority list and a fairly sure command after 5 years than a mess of outside recruitment and 'merit' based promotions. At least seniority is transparent.
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Well I couldnt be arsed going for the interview.
The chap (sick) that mentioned that he (and many others) doesnt want to join BA and is attracted by the smell of a command is no better than the dopey cadets that take a buggering off Mike O'Pikey.
If that is the motivation then the nipper kissing regime planned at PL will have a field day.
Well Mr sick and merituous supporters the system you aspire to join is already shafting your command aspirations. I can assure you my interview was not for F/o. So you see they will fill the left seats on a cost neutral basis. One course for a captain not two, one for the f/o and one for replacement. Better pucker up and start kissing as there will be no shortage of DEC people to keep screwing your command chances.Globesapn, jet2,xl,zoom, ad infinitum. Lots of highly qualified 75/6 drivers chasing an ever decreasing pool of decent jobs on type.
However to expand the merituous system (read back door ba arse kissers):
I predict Lots of yes men, with many european pilots moaning about not being able to do visuals and quite happy to screw anyone to get their way.
Havent they got their own national airlines to join? Oh no I forgot , they cant its sewn up. So lets strut around in our new BA uniforms and newly aquired four bars whilst saying we dont want to join BA.
what a crock.
Thank **** Im on the last 15 years of my career and not the first. What a bunch of knobs
The chap (sick) that mentioned that he (and many others) doesnt want to join BA and is attracted by the smell of a command is no better than the dopey cadets that take a buggering off Mike O'Pikey.
If that is the motivation then the nipper kissing regime planned at PL will have a field day.
Well Mr sick and merituous supporters the system you aspire to join is already shafting your command aspirations. I can assure you my interview was not for F/o. So you see they will fill the left seats on a cost neutral basis. One course for a captain not two, one for the f/o and one for replacement. Better pucker up and start kissing as there will be no shortage of DEC people to keep screwing your command chances.Globesapn, jet2,xl,zoom, ad infinitum. Lots of highly qualified 75/6 drivers chasing an ever decreasing pool of decent jobs on type.
However to expand the merituous system (read back door ba arse kissers):
I predict Lots of yes men, with many european pilots moaning about not being able to do visuals and quite happy to screw anyone to get their way.
Havent they got their own national airlines to join? Oh no I forgot , they cant its sewn up. So lets strut around in our new BA uniforms and newly aquired four bars whilst saying we dont want to join BA.
what a crock.
Thank **** Im on the last 15 years of my career and not the first. What a bunch of knobs
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Do you honestly believe that it would be any other way? I'm not aware of any BA pilots claiming that this fight is for the benefit of anyone but the BA pilots themselves.
I predict Lots of yes men, with many european pilots moaning about not being able to do visuals
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Kabaka,
calm down , the dig was directed at the endless stream of cloggies and belges who think we brits fly like old people but are still happy to take our jobs and shag our women, with their cheap legal dope and easily obtainable porn, naked saunas, attractve liberal women etc etc God I envy them.
calm down , the dig was directed at the endless stream of cloggies and belges who think we brits fly like old people but are still happy to take our jobs and shag our women, with their cheap legal dope and easily obtainable porn, naked saunas, attractve liberal women etc etc God I envy them.