BA and BALPA already agreed on EU 757 Pilots
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So, certain directors (little 'd' 
) have staked their reputations on PL operating without 'us'. Their egos will not allow them to back down and see sense. Even though it will be built upon by the fruits of our labours, cross-subsidised by our labours, and, may indeed poach those very labours from under our noses. Hmmm...
It doesn't really matter what Scope says, or indeed, intends to say. If the future pilots of PL are not on the master seniority list then those directors are in for a bit of a shock. Just in time for the run up to Easter/T5....
Does anyone else in this outfit feel that it is being run like an eighteenth century mill of the worst sort?
Does WW bluff? Does he blink? Is he The Stig? Do we care...?
Well, he certainly blinked this time last year: with the days' revenue down the pan, instead of taking the CC on, he chose instead to 'operate' a near-normal program, except that the a/c were mostly empty, thus avoiding the stigma associated with IA and avoiding the wrath of the media & Joe Public. Blink he most certainly did!
Our potential spat will make last year look like childs play. There will be no-one around to get his a/c in position, or fly anything like a 'normal' program.
The BACC will get my full support should the breathtakingly arrogant LT fail to come to its senses.
) have staked their reputations on PL operating without 'us'. Their egos will not allow them to back down and see sense. Even though it will be built upon by the fruits of our labours, cross-subsidised by our labours, and, may indeed poach those very labours from under our noses. Hmmm...It doesn't really matter what Scope says, or indeed, intends to say. If the future pilots of PL are not on the master seniority list then those directors are in for a bit of a shock. Just in time for the run up to Easter/T5....
Does anyone else in this outfit feel that it is being run like an eighteenth century mill of the worst sort?
Does WW bluff? Does he blink? Is he The Stig? Do we care...?
Well, he certainly blinked this time last year: with the days' revenue down the pan, instead of taking the CC on, he chose instead to 'operate' a near-normal program, except that the a/c were mostly empty, thus avoiding the stigma associated with IA and avoiding the wrath of the media & Joe Public. Blink he most certainly did!
Our potential spat will make last year look like childs play. There will be no-one around to get his a/c in position, or fly anything like a 'normal' program.
The BACC will get my full support should the breathtakingly arrogant LT fail to come to its senses.
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The LT don't really seem to learn any lessons. Those versed in the demise of the BA Regional operation may well recognise the modus operandi here. First set up the 'low cost' subsidiary, then transfer mainline work to it, then hand over the whole operation. Personally I don't care much for a PL job but I recognise a scheme to shaft BA mainline pilots when I see one. The only way PL can go ahead is to have all pilots on the BA master seniority list so that we are all pulling as one. Terms and conditions we can discuss, but a seperate operation will not be tolerated. I don't want to strike over this issue, but if they push it then by goodness I will!
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I completely agree. What is it with this Management?? Mistake piles upon mistake and no one seems accountable or at least sees reason that the way they are doing business might save money short term but will loose money long term all to get them to trigger the bonus schemes.
All this talk about setting up good relations with the Flight Crew Community spouted from every Managers mouth in sight. Just read all the bloody newsletters!
And then try and shaft us via the backdoor. I hope they know whats coming for them.
If there every was any threat then this is it!
Luckily BALPA is seeing it for the potential beast it is.
We are not inconsiderate and will try and help the BA brand along but if its a BA owned, BA funded with BA managers and BA aircraft then the pilots should be on the BA Master Seniority List. Full Stop.
Got some emergency funds ready...
even some big barrel drums!
All this talk about setting up good relations with the Flight Crew Community spouted from every Managers mouth in sight. Just read all the bloody newsletters!
And then try and shaft us via the backdoor. I hope they know whats coming for them.
If there every was any threat then this is it!
Luckily BALPA is seeing it for the potential beast it is.
We are not inconsiderate and will try and help the BA brand along but if its a BA owned, BA funded with BA managers and BA aircraft then the pilots should be on the BA Master Seniority List. Full Stop.
Got some emergency funds ready...
even some big barrel drums!
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If that were the issue (BA aircraft, managers, capital = BA crew), you would be fighting to get Cityflyer crew on the master seniority list as well; I do not hear any mention of that...
Perhaps it would be a good time to stick up for your colleagues there as well...make a change from when existing crew did not stick up for new crew having to join the DC pension scheme.
The very fact that this new operation, operating new routes from bases with lower costs of living, in new markets, free of the bureaucracy of the existing operation, when the legacy routes are to continue operating from London with existing crews safe, appears to me to be an entirely new operation - who cares what link it has with BA, so long as you prevent crew and aircraft from the new business operating from the existing bases: ever.
Since there is a precedent with CitiExpress operating as a fully-owned subsidiary outside of the master seniority list, I fear you would lose any arbitration or court action if BA were to hardball with the union.
Not to mention that you would tie their hands if they ever wanted to sell off this new operation - if unsuccessful - as it would be too intrinsically tied to mainline.
Perhaps it would be a good time to stick up for your colleagues there as well...make a change from when existing crew did not stick up for new crew having to join the DC pension scheme.
The very fact that this new operation, operating new routes from bases with lower costs of living, in new markets, free of the bureaucracy of the existing operation, when the legacy routes are to continue operating from London with existing crews safe, appears to me to be an entirely new operation - who cares what link it has with BA, so long as you prevent crew and aircraft from the new business operating from the existing bases: ever.
Since there is a precedent with CitiExpress operating as a fully-owned subsidiary outside of the master seniority list, I fear you would lose any arbitration or court action if BA were to hardball with the union.
Not to mention that you would tie their hands if they ever wanted to sell off this new operation - if unsuccessful - as it would be too intrinsically tied to mainline.
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You make it sound as if the pilots asked for the DC pension errosion. That was BA erroding T&C. It was BA who asked for an alleviation on Sch K so they could run the CE operation out of LCY with a/c in excess of 100 seats. BALPA were reasonable.
Now that BALPA have asked for something in return to protect BA members' careers (it's core role) it is a different story from BA.
Of course with £500M+ profit they have looked after the shareholders? Oh no, they haven't done that either. Just held on to the money so they can waste it on a futile spat.
BA must be looking very long term.
Now that BALPA have asked for something in return to protect BA members' careers (it's core role) it is a different story from BA.
Of course with £500M+ profit they have looked after the shareholders? Oh no, they haven't done that either. Just held on to the money so they can waste it on a futile spat.
BA must be looking very long term.
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Project Lauren has been launched by BA because of the accute slot shortage at LHR and the great uncertainty at LHR following the introduction of Open Skies next April.
Whilst I accept the pilots are right to insist that BA honours the Scope agreement between them, any delay in pilot recruitment within PL is much more subject to the jockeying by airlines over their future North Atlantic flights.
One has only to look at the recent feeding frenzy over the GB airways LHR slots to see how determined airlines are to get a slice of the N ATL traffic.
Each one went for about £20M hence BA's desire to set up PL.
Whilst I accept the pilots are right to insist that BA honours the Scope agreement between them, any delay in pilot recruitment within PL is much more subject to the jockeying by airlines over their future North Atlantic flights.
One has only to look at the recent feeding frenzy over the GB airways LHR slots to see how determined airlines are to get a slice of the N ATL traffic.
Each one went for about £20M hence BA's desire to set up PL.
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I hope this doesn't go all the way to Strike action. As a BA staff member (Not flight or cabin crew) I would be very dissapointed if it got this far. And I think there would be little support from outside the pilot community in BA if this were to happen, especially over this issue. And I would have thought there would be little public support as well.
A series of strikes will probably do more harm than PL would do.
I understand there are fears that this could in the future leave to a deteriation of the T & C's for pilots down the line and also harm future prospects and this is fair enough. I hope that BALPA and BA can work together to address this.
With regards to PL harming future prospects etc I think that the most harm for this will come from the middle east / far east airlines and possibly European airlines such as Lufthansa as they take advantage of openskies. Look what Ryanair / Easyjet et al have done to the European Market.
Surely it is better to come to an agreement with BA with regards to PL so that BA can meet these challenges head on.
If BA doesn't do it then someone else will and that will be to the detriment of all in BA, not just the pilots.
I hope BA isn't taken out by friendly fire from within leaving the way open for other airlines.
Just a thought, if BA was trying to set up a similar thing to PL to take advantage of markets in India / China would BALPA be up in arms?!?!
A series of strikes will probably do more harm than PL would do.
I understand there are fears that this could in the future leave to a deteriation of the T & C's for pilots down the line and also harm future prospects and this is fair enough. I hope that BALPA and BA can work together to address this.
With regards to PL harming future prospects etc I think that the most harm for this will come from the middle east / far east airlines and possibly European airlines such as Lufthansa as they take advantage of openskies. Look what Ryanair / Easyjet et al have done to the European Market.
Surely it is better to come to an agreement with BA with regards to PL so that BA can meet these challenges head on.
If BA doesn't do it then someone else will and that will be to the detriment of all in BA, not just the pilots.
I hope BA isn't taken out by friendly fire from within leaving the way open for other airlines.
Just a thought, if BA was trying to set up a similar thing to PL to take advantage of markets in India / China would BALPA be up in arms?!?!
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T5
To answer the above:
(1) We all hope that there will be no need to strike.
(2) Do you think we expect any or need any? We never do, but BALPA are getting better at countering the company spin to the media and city.
(3) They are locked in talks that will culminate in the next couple of weeks. They have both undertaken not to raise the temperature on the issue until these talks conclude.
(4) One difference is that BA pilots have the right to work and live in the proposed centres of operation of PL. Would BALPA be concerned if it were proposed to set up in India or China? You betcha, but we have to deal with today - difficult to fight a non-existant foe.
BALPA fully recognise the need for appropriate costs and scheduling agreements in PL, what they want is for all PL pilots to be on the Master BA Seniority list ie to enable people to move between the various bases and fleets. It may be B757 today, but tomorrow if it is a success it could easily be a B777 fleet. All BA pilots want is for BA flying to be done by BA pilots.
(1)I hope this doesn't go all the way to Strike action.
(2) And I think there would be little support from outside the pilot community in BA if this were to happen, especially over this issue. And I would have thought there would be little public support as well.
(3) I hope that BALPA and BA can work together to address this.
(4) Just a thought, if BA was trying to set up a similar thing to PL to take advantage of markets in India / China would BALPA be up in arms?!?! I think not!!!!
(2) And I think there would be little support from outside the pilot community in BA if this were to happen, especially over this issue. And I would have thought there would be little public support as well.
(3) I hope that BALPA and BA can work together to address this.
(4) Just a thought, if BA was trying to set up a similar thing to PL to take advantage of markets in India / China would BALPA be up in arms?!?! I think not!!!!
(1) We all hope that there will be no need to strike.
(2) Do you think we expect any or need any? We never do, but BALPA are getting better at countering the company spin to the media and city.
(3) They are locked in talks that will culminate in the next couple of weeks. They have both undertaken not to raise the temperature on the issue until these talks conclude.
(4) One difference is that BA pilots have the right to work and live in the proposed centres of operation of PL. Would BALPA be concerned if it were proposed to set up in India or China? You betcha, but we have to deal with today - difficult to fight a non-existant foe.
BALPA fully recognise the need for appropriate costs and scheduling agreements in PL, what they want is for all PL pilots to be on the Master BA Seniority list ie to enable people to move between the various bases and fleets. It may be B757 today, but tomorrow if it is a success it could easily be a B777 fleet. All BA pilots want is for BA flying to be done by BA pilots.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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All BA pilots want is for BA flying to be done by BA pilots.
Is there any reason why you wouldn't want the above? Unfortunately, BA and BALPA have been in discussion for a while and BA appear determined to deny us these opportunities. They can avoid a strike by ensuring that all PL pilots are on the Mainline Seniority List. We're not asking for Bidline or anything else, just the List.
As far as public/BA wide support goes, couldn't care less. We've never had it so why seek it.
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BALPA fully recognise the need for appropriate costs and scheduling agreements in PL, what they want is for all PL pilots to be on the Master BA Seniority list ie to enable people to move between the various bases and fleets. It may be B757 today, but tomorrow if it is a success it could easily be a B777 fleet. All BA pilots want is for BA flying to be done by BA pilots.
It doesn't affect me either way whether BA pilots fly it or not but then if it is the start of a slippery slope towards moving other stuff away from mainline, eg BA functions currently undertaken at LHR but could in theory move elsewhere then yes it does. So if that is an issue BALPA are also worried about as well then it has my, and lots of others i would imagine, support.
Lets hope that in a few years time it is indeed 777's flying those routes from Europe!!
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I guess the issue is they want to pay PL pilots a lot less than mainline pilots and is this something that couldn't be done with PL pilots on the main list?
In fact, having just looked at the proposed pay scales, it would actually be cheaper for BA to pay Lauren pilots the appropriate mainline pay for their first 6 years! If BA want to keep costs down they could simply cap the pay at that point and the Lauren pilots can go to mainline with 6 years seniority or leave. Somehow I doubt many people will be intent on staying beyond 6 years anyway given the debilitating nature of the Lauren work.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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I would have thought that direct-entry Captains, as PL propose, are incompatible with a master seniority list.
In the meantime, it just requires Willie Walsh to appreciate that he's careering down a blind alley by trying to force this issue.
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Not necessarily. The pay point already exists on the master pay scales. I doubt too many existing BA pilots would be willing to bid for PL positions. DECs could be added to the master seniority list in the knowledge that they are not displacing existing BA pilots from command positions. The DECs could keep their Lauren commands but would have to wait their turn for a UK command.
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Being a member of Balpa I fully understand & support the views being expressed here.
However there is a ticking time bomb at LHR with the coverted 14% of prime time slots held by bmi. Lufthansa has a 30% stake in bmi, and just like BA had with the GB slots/airline at LGW, has first call on the purchase of bmi. This option matures soon. Likewise SAS owns 20% of bmi and is hoping to sell its stake soon. All three of these airlines are part of the Star Alliance, an arch rival of BA.
Just to add a little more interest to the Airline ownership situation at LHR, it is heavily rumoured that Singapore Airlines is seeking to sell its 50% stake in Virgin. Virgin is of course non aligned but SIA is part of the Star Alliance.
All the above is I believe the prime reason for PL.
However there is a ticking time bomb at LHR with the coverted 14% of prime time slots held by bmi. Lufthansa has a 30% stake in bmi, and just like BA had with the GB slots/airline at LGW, has first call on the purchase of bmi. This option matures soon. Likewise SAS owns 20% of bmi and is hoping to sell its stake soon. All three of these airlines are part of the Star Alliance, an arch rival of BA.
Just to add a little more interest to the Airline ownership situation at LHR, it is heavily rumoured that Singapore Airlines is seeking to sell its 50% stake in Virgin. Virgin is of course non aligned but SIA is part of the Star Alliance.
All the above is I believe the prime reason for PL.
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You guys don't seem to get it - The vast majority of applicants (for FO at least) have no interest in joining if being on the seniority list means a hugely slowed progress to command due to secondments.
We are (relatively) happy to see PL on lower pay and different terms, but the work has to stay with 'mainline' crew on the master seniority list.
Notwithstanding the lack of altruism, PL applicants will benfit as they will have the right to work anywhere else in BA with all the financial and BidLine benefits that we now enjoy. I bet you that every applicant to Lauren will, if we get our way, move to LHR after their freeze is up. And I bet you that they will be glad they did. I reckon that there will also be a small number of LHR/LGW pilots that will bid to work for PL for either command or because the European bases suit their lifestyle.
Make no mistake-BA will siphon off work from mainline to PL if BALPA loses this fight. As an industry, do we all aspire to the lowest denominator, or should pilots who enjoy the best T&Cs in the UK just sit back and count our Ferraris whilst we can still afford them?
It is amazing to see how some BA pilots cannot conceive of why anyone wouldn't want to be in BA - but believe me, it is very much so.
). Your post suggests that we think we are some sort of elite. Well, nothing could be further from reality. We are fortunate to be in the position of (probably) enjoying the best T&Cs in the UK if not Europe. That does not mean we think we are 'better' than you. I sincerely hope that other airlines improve your lot-and more power to your elbow in achieving it!Your last sentence looks like sour grapes to me-did you apply and fail?
Oh, and if you are right about not getting enough applicants due to command time, then I guess BA will have to improve the T&Cs of Lauren. Somehow, I think they will get enough people through the door.
ATB
ID