BA and BALPA already agreed on EU 757 Pilots
Shaka..
I too feel that the work should be done by Mainline Flight Crew but reading through "Scope" (as I understand it's Schedule K of the MOA) I can't find any mention of BA Mainline being entitled to operate Europe - US. ...This is a tough one for the Reps, I wish them luck.
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@ Wiggy
I was always under the impression that this sort of flying was covered under SCOPE if it was flown under the BA brand or with BA mainline operated aircraft.
I might be wrong. Granted its going to be a tough one. But there is soooo much potential for the beginning of the end and not just for BA pilots but for overall T&C's in the whole industry.
So please guys that keep on sniping, back off. We need support not backstabbing.
I was always under the impression that this sort of flying was covered under SCOPE if it was flown under the BA brand or with BA mainline operated aircraft.
I might be wrong. Granted its going to be a tough one. But there is soooo much potential for the beginning of the end and not just for BA pilots but for overall T&C's in the whole industry.
So please guys that keep on sniping, back off. We need support not backstabbing.
Hi Shaka
As far as I can see Schedule K only mentions aircraft purchased or leased by BA and operating in or out of LHR and LGW as being operated by Mainline Crews....various get outs involving BACX and the RJ, but nothing about Europe - US services....Interesting times ahead.
As far as I can see Schedule K only mentions aircraft purchased or leased by BA and operating in or out of LHR and LGW as being operated by Mainline Crews....various get outs involving BACX and the RJ, but nothing about Europe - US services....Interesting times ahead.
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Hand Solo
Let me refer you to
I think it's clear enough from that statement.
Another part of your post
Please inform me as to which part of my posts include inaccurate quotes from BALPA?
I agree, where have I stated otherwise?
All the 'inaccurate' quotes as you say have come from other issues (ie threads started by Reps on the BALPA forum).
Well of course Hand Solo, managers always work to help the employees, and union's are there to always help us, there is never any conflict of interest, and there has never been any history to show otherwise
So in my little conspiracy world, as you say, when this thread was started, part of the conspiracy was that these flights would not be crewed by mainline pilots. Would you now say that this is still a hoax, like most conspiracy theories?
So are BA negotiating, or a have they decided? They can't be doing both.
Please be under no illusion that BALPA and BA are negotiating over this now, BA have already decided.
Another part of your post
Some of us are getting rather tired of your selective and frequently innaccurate quotes from BALPA.
BALPA have said nothing, zip, nyada about the negotiations and thats for a very good reason.
All the 'inaccurate' quotes as you say have come from other issues (ie threads started by Reps on the BALPA forum).
Must be fun living in your little conspiracy world.
So in my little conspiracy world, as you say, when this thread was started, part of the conspiracy was that these flights would not be crewed by mainline pilots. Would you now say that this is still a hoax, like most conspiracy theories?
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Here are the pay scales....
Rank Basic Salary Pension and benefits allowance Total Basic pay
Captain £73,500 £11,025 £84,525
Senior First Officer £44,100 £5,513 £49,613
First Officer £37,800 £3,780 £41,580
In addition we pay sector pay, and you will be entitled to per-diem overnight allowances and positioning allowances. Training Captains are paid additional amounts (total basic pay of £102,064 for base training captains and of £95,851 for line training captains).
There will also be a performance related bonus plan which will pay a bonus as a percentage of basic pay depending on corporate and individual targets.
Other Than Trainers, Are Their Other Opportunities?
We do have other non-flying roles, such as management pilot jobs and selection assessors. Vacancies are advertised from time to time. Appointments are on merit. The terms and conditions applicable to these posts will be advised either in the advertisement or during the selection process. In most cases, if you work additional days you will be paid extra, and if you fly less, you will be compensated for loss of sector pay etc.
What is the Difference Between SFOs and FOs?
An SFO must have at least 500 hrs on type and an unrestricted ATPL (A). Promotion from FO to SFO is normally automatic on gaining the qualification criteria.
Do You Operate a Seniority System?
No. Promotion, appointments, movements between bases, etc are all based on merit, the Company's needs and your desires.
How Do You Select For Command Then?
As a rapidly expanding Airline, we expect excellent opportunities for advancement to command.
Promotion to Captain will be on merit. Periodically, the Company will invite applications from qualified SFOs for a place on a "Command Shortlist". Subject to successfully passing a competitive selection process, applicants will be placed on the shortlist and as command vacancies arise, candidates for command training will be drawn from the Command Shortlist. When a new Command Shortlist is drawn up, those on the previous Command Shortlist will be considered for inclusion on the new list, but will have no right to be included. Inclusion on the list will confer no right to command training.
How Much is the Sector Pay?
Sector Pay is £100/sector for Captains, £65/sector for SFOs, and £50/sector for FOs. You can expect to be rostered between 110 & 120 sectors per year. A sector is a single transatlantic sector from any EU airport to the US or vice versa.
How much are the Allowances?
There is a table of positioning allowances from each Gateway Airport to each of the BA European Operating Airports. They are designed to cover the costs of positioning by land transport.
Overnight (per-diem) allowances are to provide for food and other living costs while you are on duty away from your Gateway Airport. The current rates are $100 per day in the US and €75 in Europe. They will normally be paid in local currency.
The allowances are not subject to tax, as they are to cover your expenses.
Rank Basic Salary Pension and benefits allowance Total Basic pay
Captain £73,500 £11,025 £84,525
Senior First Officer £44,100 £5,513 £49,613
First Officer £37,800 £3,780 £41,580
In addition we pay sector pay, and you will be entitled to per-diem overnight allowances and positioning allowances. Training Captains are paid additional amounts (total basic pay of £102,064 for base training captains and of £95,851 for line training captains).
There will also be a performance related bonus plan which will pay a bonus as a percentage of basic pay depending on corporate and individual targets.
Other Than Trainers, Are Their Other Opportunities?
We do have other non-flying roles, such as management pilot jobs and selection assessors. Vacancies are advertised from time to time. Appointments are on merit. The terms and conditions applicable to these posts will be advised either in the advertisement or during the selection process. In most cases, if you work additional days you will be paid extra, and if you fly less, you will be compensated for loss of sector pay etc.
What is the Difference Between SFOs and FOs?
An SFO must have at least 500 hrs on type and an unrestricted ATPL (A). Promotion from FO to SFO is normally automatic on gaining the qualification criteria.
Do You Operate a Seniority System?
No. Promotion, appointments, movements between bases, etc are all based on merit, the Company's needs and your desires.
How Do You Select For Command Then?
As a rapidly expanding Airline, we expect excellent opportunities for advancement to command.
Promotion to Captain will be on merit. Periodically, the Company will invite applications from qualified SFOs for a place on a "Command Shortlist". Subject to successfully passing a competitive selection process, applicants will be placed on the shortlist and as command vacancies arise, candidates for command training will be drawn from the Command Shortlist. When a new Command Shortlist is drawn up, those on the previous Command Shortlist will be considered for inclusion on the new list, but will have no right to be included. Inclusion on the list will confer no right to command training.
How Much is the Sector Pay?
Sector Pay is £100/sector for Captains, £65/sector for SFOs, and £50/sector for FOs. You can expect to be rostered between 110 & 120 sectors per year. A sector is a single transatlantic sector from any EU airport to the US or vice versa.
How much are the Allowances?
There is a table of positioning allowances from each Gateway Airport to each of the BA European Operating Airports. They are designed to cover the costs of positioning by land transport.
Overnight (per-diem) allowances are to provide for food and other living costs while you are on duty away from your Gateway Airport. The current rates are $100 per day in the US and €75 in Europe. They will normally be paid in local currency.
The allowances are not subject to tax, as they are to cover your expenses.
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Justin,
When you mention gateways, does this mean that you could live in say MAN / GLA / STN etc and the first day of your rostered block will positioning to the aircraft? Is it like the Netjets system?
If so, do you know the gateways which will be applic?
When you mention gateways, does this mean that you could live in say MAN / GLA / STN etc and the first day of your rostered block will positioning to the aircraft? Is it like the Netjets system?
If so, do you know the gateways which will be applic?
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Judging by other information in the public domain I think the answer is no. The gateways are the operating bases in Europe. If you live in the UK you'll be positioning yourself to the gateway at your own expense. If your gateway is, for example, CDG and you are required to operate from FRA you'll receive an allowance for transport from CDG to FRA, but nothing to get you from the UK to CDG or FRA.
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Walnut
One of the problems as I understand it is that the BA Board has yet to sign off on the deal, There are a number of problems, one of which is slots into JFK, I believe EWR is being looked at seriously.
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It isnt yet but it will be. And it should have been ages ago.
The BACC are having a standing conference with BA (1 meeting before Ballot) on nov 26th over Lauren. The BA board will decide whether to go ahead at the December board meeting.
FAA will attempt to cap flights at New York Kennedy Airport to 81 an hour during afternoon peak times, which appears to mean airlines will have to make significant cuts to existing schedules.
The agency released its targets Friday afternoon, and will use them during an airline scheduling conference planned for Oct. 23-24. During closed-door sessions, airlines will be asked to volunteer flight cuts to meet the flight limits.
FAA said it is looking to limit JFK operations to 80 flights an hour between 6a.m. and 10p.m., and 81 flights an hour between 3p.m. and 8p.m. Additionally, targets were set for 30 and 15 minute blocks -- 44 and 24 operations, respectively. Neither the arrival total nor departure total can exceed 53 an hour, to balance runway operations.
As an example of current levels, on the evening of Oct. 18 there were two hour-long periods -- 5p.m.-6p.m. and 8p.m.-9p.m. -- where there were about 90 operations, according to FAA data.
The agency released its targets Friday afternoon, and will use them during an airline scheduling conference planned for Oct. 23-24. During closed-door sessions, airlines will be asked to volunteer flight cuts to meet the flight limits.
FAA said it is looking to limit JFK operations to 80 flights an hour between 6a.m. and 10p.m., and 81 flights an hour between 3p.m. and 8p.m. Additionally, targets were set for 30 and 15 minute blocks -- 44 and 24 operations, respectively. Neither the arrival total nor departure total can exceed 53 an hour, to balance runway operations.
As an example of current levels, on the evening of Oct. 18 there were two hour-long periods -- 5p.m.-6p.m. and 8p.m.-9p.m. -- where there were about 90 operations, according to FAA data.
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Question:
Is anybody still taking this Mickey Mouse outfit seriously?
From the scheduling, and immediate cancelling of interviews, the impression many are getting is that you'd have to be pretty desperate to chuck your lot in with this bunch of clowns!
Is anybody still taking this Mickey Mouse outfit seriously?
From the scheduling, and immediate cancelling of interviews, the impression many are getting is that you'd have to be pretty desperate to chuck your lot in with this bunch of clowns!
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Re official BALPA view:
There is a scope agreement that is designed to provide job security for BA pilots out of London, no 100+ seat planes will fly those routes. That was pre Open Skies. BALPA want to renegotiate this agreement post Open Skies as there is now a bigger ball park and BA flights out of other European cities will affect jobs out of London by reducing feed and premium passengers. To reach the current scope agreement there was give and take on both sides, it has been changed many times over the years to reflect changing conditions, it is called schedule K. BA are being evasive re BALPA's request. As a result both parties are at standing conference which is the last step before a ballot for industrial action.
There are parallels elsewhere, Qantas/Jetstar, Iberia/Clickair, JAL/JALways, Britannia/ThomsonFly. In all but the last wages are reducing, time to command increasing and agreements stretching.
There is no amnosity towards anyone applying to Lauren, I just hope you affiliate to a union like BALPA/ECA otherwise your conditions will go down with time. Remember Balpa is the British Airline Pilots Association, Lauren will have a British AOC.
The BA boss in charge of Lauren is an experienced cost cutter, his previous job was sacking all but a few overseas ground staff. He has not been chosen for his track record in developing new business opportunities. Lots of people question the business viability of Lauren and I suspect ulterior motives.
"Editted as I could't spell Qantas"
There is a scope agreement that is designed to provide job security for BA pilots out of London, no 100+ seat planes will fly those routes. That was pre Open Skies. BALPA want to renegotiate this agreement post Open Skies as there is now a bigger ball park and BA flights out of other European cities will affect jobs out of London by reducing feed and premium passengers. To reach the current scope agreement there was give and take on both sides, it has been changed many times over the years to reflect changing conditions, it is called schedule K. BA are being evasive re BALPA's request. As a result both parties are at standing conference which is the last step before a ballot for industrial action.
There are parallels elsewhere, Qantas/Jetstar, Iberia/Clickair, JAL/JALways, Britannia/ThomsonFly. In all but the last wages are reducing, time to command increasing and agreements stretching.
There is no amnosity towards anyone applying to Lauren, I just hope you affiliate to a union like BALPA/ECA otherwise your conditions will go down with time. Remember Balpa is the British Airline Pilots Association, Lauren will have a British AOC.
The BA boss in charge of Lauren is an experienced cost cutter, his previous job was sacking all but a few overseas ground staff. He has not been chosen for his track record in developing new business opportunities. Lots of people question the business viability of Lauren and I suspect ulterior motives.
"Editted as I could't spell Qantas"
Last edited by FlyingTom; 11th Jan 2008 at 09:39.
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In all honesty, that does not sound too good.
The Terms and conditions so far are OK, the whole set up is very appealing in terms of rosters and flights.
But still lots of questions remain unanswered untill now and if I am not mistaken, there is not even a word about seniority lists as in Lauren everything is based on Merrit as they say.
Not all of us have access in our current jobs to BALPA or ECA, so maybe the guys who do can keep us posted through Pprune?
The Terms and conditions so far are OK, the whole set up is very appealing in terms of rosters and flights.
But still lots of questions remain unanswered untill now and if I am not mistaken, there is not even a word about seniority lists as in Lauren everything is based on Merrit as they say.
Not all of us have access in our current jobs to BALPA or ECA, so maybe the guys who do can keep us posted through Pprune?
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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My bet is that at best, you will end up on the BA mainline seniority list on the advertised Lauren T&Cs, the flipside being that all BA pilots will have the opportunity to bid for Lauren seats.
At worst, there will be no Lauren and big BA will have got a good hiding in the process.
All IMHO.
At worst, there will be no Lauren and big BA will have got a good hiding in the process.
All IMHO.