DHLAir wannabe? read this.
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No mate, no management answer. No hysteria. Just the facts untainted by WHINING , ok.
If we don't look after our jobs here they will take them and give them off to some eastern european lot.
We can ride through this thing, it's only the **** stirrers that continue to WHINE about it that are making it into the problem that it is.
It was the same thing at BA I am told by a reliable source.
It isin't a popular view I know. But if I say this in the crewroom I get shouted down by the tiny militant majority and as another poster said it's only a tiny majority making all the noise as well.
I bet they all drive big cars though! Ha ha!
If we don't look after our jobs here they will take them and give them off to some eastern european lot.
We can ride through this thing, it's only the **** stirrers that continue to WHINE about it that are making it into the problem that it is.
It was the same thing at BA I am told by a reliable source.
It isin't a popular view I know. But if I say this in the crewroom I get shouted down by the tiny militant majority and as another poster said it's only a tiny majority making all the noise as well.
I bet they all drive big cars though! Ha ha!
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And the FACTS include the fact that there IS a problem with those engines, plain and simple. And I think it is very noble of anyone to want to save DPWN (who make squillions of profit each year) a few million quid by "living" with those problem engines. I am sure that various managers bonuses are protected too by that money not being spent on getting them properly overhauled.
I will do more than most "to protect" our jobs but if there is a chance my health will be affected (and anyone that thinks that is not so, is simply not acquainted with all the facts), I would really like to try and get something done about that.
I will do more than most "to protect" our jobs but if there is a chance my health will be affected (and anyone that thinks that is not so, is simply not acquainted with all the facts), I would really like to try and get something done about that.
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SQP1 I agree, it's not fair for anyone to be shouted down in the crew room just because they hold an opposing opinion. I haven't actually witnessed anything like that but if it's happened, it's wrong!
Regarding the engine overhaul situation there was a very enlightening thread here on; http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=272153 from Piper19 which gives a very clear engineering insight to the problem in that DHL engineers are further hindered by not being able to find replacement engines and that engine overhauls are time consuming.
I really don't know what the answer is regarding the cockpit fumes saga but Management could certainly help themselves by taking a reality check in acknowledging the problem really does exist. I honestly believe the pilot workforce would then be prepared to work with them to reach a resolution.
Regarding the engine overhaul situation there was a very enlightening thread here on; http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=272153 from Piper19 which gives a very clear engineering insight to the problem in that DHL engineers are further hindered by not being able to find replacement engines and that engine overhauls are time consuming.
I really don't know what the answer is regarding the cockpit fumes saga but Management could certainly help themselves by taking a reality check in acknowledging the problem really does exist. I honestly believe the pilot workforce would then be prepared to work with them to reach a resolution.
Last edited by sapco2; 21st Apr 2007 at 18:52.
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Your shouting me down now Sapco! I'm trying to tell you that there's no problem and you and your mates keep telling me there is..
Thats what I'm talking about, if you don't go along with the 'Party line' and you are the odd one out of it, the most vocal ones who are 'sure they are right' because of some rubbish article they found on the internet don't want to know about your opinion..
I have had the smell and I know it's no big deal right?
Pulling out a bunch of internet articles doesn't prove anything.
The fact IS the company are looking after it and it takes a bit of time.
In the meantime the smells have almost completely stopped!
I haven't smelled a bad airplane in six months and I fly all the time!
A success by any standard!
The biggest majority also think this but are afraid to say anything here because they will be ridiculed.
Almost all the guys I fly with think this.
That is what I'm saying OK?
Thats what I'm talking about, if you don't go along with the 'Party line' and you are the odd one out of it, the most vocal ones who are 'sure they are right' because of some rubbish article they found on the internet don't want to know about your opinion..
I have had the smell and I know it's no big deal right?
Pulling out a bunch of internet articles doesn't prove anything.
The fact IS the company are looking after it and it takes a bit of time.
In the meantime the smells have almost completely stopped!
I haven't smelled a bad airplane in six months and I fly all the time!
A success by any standard!
The biggest majority also think this but are afraid to say anything here because they will be ridiculed.
Almost all the guys I fly with think this.
That is what I'm saying OK?
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No mate, he was making fun of MY mispelling of whining.
Like it makes a big difference if I use a spelling check or whatever.
Anyhow I hope I made my point and that you lot will stop embarrasing yourselves and me here!
OK?
Peace.
Like it makes a big difference if I use a spelling check or whatever.
Anyhow I hope I made my point and that you lot will stop embarrasing yourselves and me here!
OK?
Peace.
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SQP1 until fairly recently all I had smelt was the occasional whiff like I'm sure you had. I'm not saying, like you plainly are, that I thought the fumes were fabricated by a few militants looking to destroy our job, but I was dubious as to how bad the incidents actually were.
As has been said already, the whole thing is subjective and some seem more sensitive than others, however you are obviously fortunate enough to not have experienced a "real" fumes incident.
Not that long ago when I was at about 1000ft on approach operating single pack due to reported fumes, when we had a full exposure for about 10 seconds of intense fumes. After landing and having turned all bleeds/packs off, opened windows etc both me and my fellow crew member were in very poor shape. Our eyes were streaming, skin was burning, throats were sore and heads were pounding.
Mate, THERE IS A PROBLEM and the sooner people like you back off and wake up to this very real issue the sooner we will hopefully get it resolved.
I'm not a "drama queen" and I'm not trying to "piss on anyone" as you so eloquently put it, I'm just being totally honest about what happened to me.
I don't believe you when you say people shout you down for putting your point across in the crewroom, we work with a decent bunch of guys who, in the most, would be more than happy to discuss your opinions to which you are fully entitled.
I also question that you find you share the same opinion with the majority of people you fly with, you are in a minority by far and what you say doesn't add up.
MD
As has been said already, the whole thing is subjective and some seem more sensitive than others, however you are obviously fortunate enough to not have experienced a "real" fumes incident.
Not that long ago when I was at about 1000ft on approach operating single pack due to reported fumes, when we had a full exposure for about 10 seconds of intense fumes. After landing and having turned all bleeds/packs off, opened windows etc both me and my fellow crew member were in very poor shape. Our eyes were streaming, skin was burning, throats were sore and heads were pounding.
Mate, THERE IS A PROBLEM
and the sooner people like you back off and wake up to this very real issue the sooner we will hopefully get it resolved.I'm not a "drama queen" and I'm not trying to "piss on anyone" as you so eloquently put it, I'm just being totally honest about what happened to me.
I don't believe you when you say people shout you down for putting your point across in the crewroom, we work with a decent bunch of guys who, in the most, would be more than happy to discuss your opinions to which you are fully entitled.
I also question that you find you share the same opinion with the majority of people you fly with, you are in a minority by far and what you say doesn't add up.
MD
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SQP1, firstly let me tell you that I am not going to get into any “I’m right and you’re wrong” type argument with you. Management must already be loving your posts. They are past masters in the “divide and conquer” principle.
What Min Drag has just posted: “I don't believe you when you say people shout you down for putting your point across in the crewroom, we work with a decent bunch of guys who, in the most, would be more than happy to discuss your opinions to which you are fully entitled,” is the only description of a crewroom situation in DHL I recognise. I have NEVER once witnessed anybody being shouted down, put down or in any other way being abused over this or any other subject. As he said, by far the majority of people working here are the easiest to work with, most pleasant and tolerant group of people I have ever come across since I started my working career. If someone has not been equally tolerant of some view you expressed and you expressed it in a reasonable and non abusive manner, then I am both surprised and disappointed.
When he says, “I also question that you find you share the same opinion with the majority of people you fly with, you are in a minority by far and what you say doesn't add up”, I have to say again that his experience appears to be closer to what I have heard and experienced.
Neither am I going to insult you with the “I hope you lot are not going to keep embarrassing yourselves and me” type of statement. That is one person’s opinion, yours, and I prefer to let people judge for themselves after they have as many of the facts as possible.
Considering the past history of this problem together with the current situation, you really are dismissing (I’m being kind there) the whole thing, and a lot of good people, far too lightly.
I understand where you are coming from, I really do. I too have operated on these aircraft for sometime now and have had no particular problem. But people in the same cockpit have asked if I would be happy if we flew with one particular pack switched off. They are aware of a strong smell and I am not. I am always quite happy about this. I know that some of us are not very sensitive to these smells/fumes, and if I can be protected in any way then I am happy to take advantage of it.
And of course in most cases all this goes unreported. Not really very surprising considering management’s record, so far, in responding to this problem and their attitude towards those who report it.
Especially when you consider the FSI instructing us not to report certain types of fume events in the tech log “as they are normal”. Yes I know they are doing something and it takes time (it is surprising how much time…). I simply refer you back to my first post regarding where they will allow the “sniffers” to be placed. Want to take any bets on which aircraft will be chosen?
And do not forget that at the end of the day, they just need to spend a chunk of money to fix it.
I too was very happy with my freighting job, initially. It is hugely disappointing how much it has changed since I started here. There does appear to be a constant whittling away of our conditions, some real and some no doubt just a general feeling. We all know that nothing in this business stays the same but should we really let things get worse without any comment?
Let’s not forget, that “fumes” are only part of what is currently driving people away from this company. Ironically, it would not take a great deal to make it again, a great place to work.
Peace to you.
What Min Drag has just posted: “I don't believe you when you say people shout you down for putting your point across in the crewroom, we work with a decent bunch of guys who, in the most, would be more than happy to discuss your opinions to which you are fully entitled,” is the only description of a crewroom situation in DHL I recognise. I have NEVER once witnessed anybody being shouted down, put down or in any other way being abused over this or any other subject. As he said, by far the majority of people working here are the easiest to work with, most pleasant and tolerant group of people I have ever come across since I started my working career. If someone has not been equally tolerant of some view you expressed and you expressed it in a reasonable and non abusive manner, then I am both surprised and disappointed.
When he says, “I also question that you find you share the same opinion with the majority of people you fly with, you are in a minority by far and what you say doesn't add up”, I have to say again that his experience appears to be closer to what I have heard and experienced.
Neither am I going to insult you with the “I hope you lot are not going to keep embarrassing yourselves and me” type of statement. That is one person’s opinion, yours, and I prefer to let people judge for themselves after they have as many of the facts as possible.
Considering the past history of this problem together with the current situation, you really are dismissing (I’m being kind there) the whole thing, and a lot of good people, far too lightly.
I understand where you are coming from, I really do. I too have operated on these aircraft for sometime now and have had no particular problem. But people in the same cockpit have asked if I would be happy if we flew with one particular pack switched off. They are aware of a strong smell and I am not. I am always quite happy about this. I know that some of us are not very sensitive to these smells/fumes, and if I can be protected in any way then I am happy to take advantage of it.
And of course in most cases all this goes unreported. Not really very surprising considering management’s record, so far, in responding to this problem and their attitude towards those who report it.
Especially when you consider the FSI instructing us not to report certain types of fume events in the tech log “as they are normal”. Yes I know they are doing something and it takes time (it is surprising how much time…). I simply refer you back to my first post regarding where they will allow the “sniffers” to be placed. Want to take any bets on which aircraft will be chosen?
And do not forget that at the end of the day, they just need to spend a chunk of money to fix it.
I too was very happy with my freighting job, initially. It is hugely disappointing how much it has changed since I started here. There does appear to be a constant whittling away of our conditions, some real and some no doubt just a general feeling. We all know that nothing in this business stays the same but should we really let things get worse without any comment?
Let’s not forget, that “fumes” are only part of what is currently driving people away from this company. Ironically, it would not take a great deal to make it again, a great place to work.
Peace to you.
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SQP,
You may not believe there is a problem with the fumes.......you may think that a few articles on the internet are stirring the issue. Well, I had a serious fumes incident, I ended up in hosptial, the hospital would not release me as I failed 4 blood tests showing a number of unusual levels in my blood, since have then I have had more tests done & have permanent TCP posioning in my body.....the level is 1000 times more than would normally be found in an average person.....the TCP's will never leave my body & I now have to wait to see what effect they have on my health in the future.
As for it being a campaign waged against DHL.....the Australian Government have officially recognised the problem & have rated the 757 as the most dangerous commercial airliner for this problem. Unfortunately for us the problem only really exisits on the "C" engine aircraft. As you dont think there is a problem why don't you ask the CP about his incident or ask the new DFO if he believes the problem exists. I had a long chat with him last night & he is very worried that so far anything they have tried has not seemed to have had any effect.
The fact you haven't had any incidents shouldn't mean the problem doesn't exist.
You may not believe there is a problem with the fumes.......you may think that a few articles on the internet are stirring the issue. Well, I had a serious fumes incident, I ended up in hosptial, the hospital would not release me as I failed 4 blood tests showing a number of unusual levels in my blood, since have then I have had more tests done & have permanent TCP posioning in my body.....the level is 1000 times more than would normally be found in an average person.....the TCP's will never leave my body & I now have to wait to see what effect they have on my health in the future.
As for it being a campaign waged against DHL.....the Australian Government have officially recognised the problem & have rated the 757 as the most dangerous commercial airliner for this problem. Unfortunately for us the problem only really exisits on the "C" engine aircraft. As you dont think there is a problem why don't you ask the CP about his incident or ask the new DFO if he believes the problem exists. I had a long chat with him last night & he is very worried that so far anything they have tried has not seemed to have had any effect.
The fact you haven't had any incidents shouldn't mean the problem doesn't exist.
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All B757 folks
Just check for TCP study results regarding the B757
MODs suggest a new thread under the SAFETY TO FLIGHT header?
MODs suggest a new thread under the SAFETY TO FLIGHT header?
Last edited by merlinxx; 25th Apr 2007 at 18:31.
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Believe me the CAA is really not interested in the Fumes issue.
They are on the side of the manufacturers and airline management and dont care about the health of the pilots.
They know that if it is accepted that fumes are harmfull this will cost too many jobs and money!
as for putting it in the book ,the company keeps telling us ,stop reporting it ,fumes are normal after start up ,during taxi ,after take off ,top of decent and during taxi in!
very wise advise if you ask me!
Neil
They are on the side of the manufacturers and airline management and dont care about the health of the pilots.
They know that if it is accepted that fumes are harmfull this will cost too many jobs and money!
as for putting it in the book ,the company keeps telling us ,stop reporting it ,fumes are normal after start up ,during taxi ,after take off ,top of decent and during taxi in!
very wise advise if you ask me!
Neil
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Following my incident 3 pages went missing from the tech log....it was the german CAA & Investigation branch that picked it up & asked questions.....the CAA in the UK weren't interested. The company said they couldn't explain were they had gone...
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When I say shouted down I mean it not really literally.
I just mean that no body listens and the usual gang of about five militant people are going on about socalled fumes whether eveyone else agrees or not. In other words nobody elses opinion counts. Not really literally though.
It's probably the same five guys who are posting here now.
There is a reason the CAA don't care about this!
They know it isin't a big problem!
And to the poster that suggest oxygen, some pilots are flying with oxygen on. Drama Queens looking to get into next years company panto probably!
I just mean that no body listens and the usual gang of about five militant people are going on about socalled fumes whether eveyone else agrees or not. In other words nobody elses opinion counts. Not really literally though.
It's probably the same five guys who are posting here now.
There is a reason the CAA don't care about this!
They know it isin't a big problem!
And to the poster that suggest oxygen, some pilots are flying with oxygen on. Drama Queens looking to get into next years company panto probably!
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SQP1 - following that post I now understand why you haven't been taken seriously in the crewroom (if indeed you have ever been into one of our crewrooms).
Neil, the fumes are completely normal - for engines that have been poorly maintained and need a fortune spending on them to put right!)
MD
Neil, the fumes are completely normal - for engines that have been poorly maintained and need a fortune spending on them to put right!)
MD
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I will try to show that there really is a problem!
DHL air has B757 with the RR RB211-535C engines ,there where 37 B757 made with this engine type, DHL has 34 of these I think.
There where 548 B757 made with the RR RB211-535E4 engines.
Here is a summery of the fumes reports over the years
E4
Year 00 01 02 03 04 05 06
reports 11 6 4 4 4 5 1
C
Year 00 01 02 03 04 05 06
reports 10 21 9 0 0 2 2
As you can see the number of reports has gone down after the airplanes where sold to DHL air ,problably to do with awareness etc.
Also every report at BA went onto the list ,I don’t know or that happens with all DHL reports( I thought there where more then 2 reports filed in 2006) ,but this will show in the data for 2007
So peope say that the E4’s also have the reports ,but if you compare the data you will see that over all there are less reports on the E4 then on the C powered B757(although this fleet is only 6.8% of the total amount of RR powered B757’s)
Some people say the engines are of the same type so whats the worry!
They might have the same name but the internal design of the bearing compartments is different what makes it more difficult for leaking oil to get into the Air system on the E4’s
The problem encountered with the C engines now is that there are almost no spare engines!
Its easy to get E4 engines as there are lots of them available ,beside this problem there is only one overhaul shop for the C engine ,the old BA overhaul plant!
And they are not doing a very good job on the overhauls ive been told.
With very long overhaul times and few spare engines this is causing lots of problems.
So you can call it a couple of whining or call us drama queens but the problem existed long before we got the aircraft.
What I wonder is why did DHL buy them they had a long history of problems and why wasn’t this found on the paperwork check before the deal ,I would think that they had a team go over all the techlogs to examin the history.
I have been told that the BA engineering management did have a party when the last of the C powered 757 left the company ,I wonder why?
Neil
DHL air has B757 with the RR RB211-535C engines ,there where 37 B757 made with this engine type, DHL has 34 of these I think.
There where 548 B757 made with the RR RB211-535E4 engines.
Here is a summery of the fumes reports over the years
E4
Year 00 01 02 03 04 05 06
reports 11 6 4 4 4 5 1
C
Year 00 01 02 03 04 05 06
reports 10 21 9 0 0 2 2
As you can see the number of reports has gone down after the airplanes where sold to DHL air ,problably to do with awareness etc.
Also every report at BA went onto the list ,I don’t know or that happens with all DHL reports( I thought there where more then 2 reports filed in 2006) ,but this will show in the data for 2007
So peope say that the E4’s also have the reports ,but if you compare the data you will see that over all there are less reports on the E4 then on the C powered B757(although this fleet is only 6.8% of the total amount of RR powered B757’s)
Some people say the engines are of the same type so whats the worry!
They might have the same name but the internal design of the bearing compartments is different what makes it more difficult for leaking oil to get into the Air system on the E4’s
The problem encountered with the C engines now is that there are almost no spare engines!
Its easy to get E4 engines as there are lots of them available ,beside this problem there is only one overhaul shop for the C engine ,the old BA overhaul plant!
And they are not doing a very good job on the overhauls ive been told.
With very long overhaul times and few spare engines this is causing lots of problems.
So you can call it a couple of whining or call us drama queens but the problem existed long before we got the aircraft.
What I wonder is why did DHL buy them they had a long history of problems and why wasn’t this found on the paperwork check before the deal ,I would think that they had a team go over all the techlogs to examin the history.
I have been told that the BA engineering management did have a party when the last of the C powered 757 left the company ,I wonder why?
Neil
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Neil,
During the lifetime of the "C" Engine a/c at BA thay had 1600 documented fumes incidents across all fleets - 96% of them were on the 757......whinging drama queens-the lot of them!!
During the lifetime of the "C" Engine a/c at BA thay had 1600 documented fumes incidents across all fleets - 96% of them were on the 757......whinging drama queens-the lot of them!!
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Min Drag, I have been in the crew rooms of course. In the DHL building in EMA, in the hangar in BRU if you really want proof.
The reason I haven't been taken seriously is because it's more fashionable to be negative.
While I do take the point of Mr Armstrong that there has been problems in the past, what I amd saying is that they are being used by some to overdramatise things and create a problem where there really isn't one.
Most if not all of the people I fly with are saying there is no problem and are wondering what it is the noisy few are talking about.
I also can't believe the airplanes would be allowed to fly if they were a problem.
The CAA would not allow it you have to admit.
The reason I haven't been taken seriously is because it's more fashionable to be negative.
While I do take the point of Mr Armstrong that there has been problems in the past, what I amd saying is that they are being used by some to overdramatise things and create a problem where there really isn't one.
Most if not all of the people I fly with are saying there is no problem and are wondering what it is the noisy few are talking about.
I also can't believe the airplanes would be allowed to fly if they were a problem.
The CAA would not allow it you have to admit.
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interview dhl ema
hi koorn,
next week I have an interview with dhl at ema, I was reading your article and if it´s true
what you have been posted, maybe I should stay at home and enjoy my off day instead to waste time and money to go there.
presently I fly with cal on 744, my intention to apply with dhl was to be closer to my family (I live in berlin) because dhl is looking for pilots based in lej.
what can you recommend me???
brgds 744cal
next week I have an interview with dhl at ema, I was reading your article and if it´s true
what you have been posted, maybe I should stay at home and enjoy my off day instead to waste time and money to go there.
presently I fly with cal on 744, my intention to apply with dhl was to be closer to my family (I live in berlin) because dhl is looking for pilots based in lej.
what can you recommend me???
brgds 744cal
Moon Walker
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Yep we are just stirring it ,thats why lots of people are leaving!
As you want to live in Germany the LEJ issue doesnt concern you but there stil is the fumes (drama queen issue).
I would go for Easyjet or Air Berlin out of Berlin if i was you ,both are hiring as far as i now ,if yr 757 rated you could try Condor they are looking for 24 capt and 24 F/o at the moment ,all contracts thought through Pas Aviation and Cirrus
It might not as bad as some say at DHL, but it is also not as good as others say !!
Neil
As you want to live in Germany the LEJ issue doesnt concern you but there stil is the fumes (drama queen issue).
I would go for Easyjet or Air Berlin out of Berlin if i was you ,both are hiring as far as i now ,if yr 757 rated you could try Condor they are looking for 24 capt and 24 F/o at the moment ,all contracts thought through Pas Aviation and Cirrus
It might not as bad as some say at DHL, but it is also not as good as others say !!
Neil