WHO THE HELL IS RECRUITING ANY F/Os ????
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
From: Midlands
I also got some quality multi piston time in air taxi aircraft before I landed the jet job... Not only does it make your CV stand out but that kind of experience really helps out when the sh1t hits the fan on the line! And most employers know it!!
Doing an instructors rating or parachute dropping or Air taxi taxi work also proves that you can cut it in the real world of flying.
If I was recruiting for my company, In a perfect world I would not look at anyone straight out of a flight school with 200hours unless the majority of my captains were VERY experienced... (You should do some kind of instructing apprenticeship or summit)... But it aint a perfect world!!!!!
Maybe this is why people with 200 hours are finding it hard to get a job? In some companys (especially those with rapid expansion) there simply aint enough very experienced captains across the board to keep the average cockpit crew experience levels at a high enough level to satisfy CAA
requirements?
Maybe, Maybe not... just my 3 cents worth!
Hope I havent offended anyone... Just trying to help you see why its not easy to get that first (well paid) job... Best of luck in the Job search, Chin up! It will happen one day!!!
Oh yes forgot to say... If your only in it for the money and GIRLS
and glamour???... Then I have no sympathy!..... You should love to fly first... glory later! 
Doing an instructors rating or parachute dropping or Air taxi taxi work also proves that you can cut it in the real world of flying.
If I was recruiting for my company, In a perfect world I would not look at anyone straight out of a flight school with 200hours unless the majority of my captains were VERY experienced... (You should do some kind of instructing apprenticeship or summit)... But it aint a perfect world!!!!!
Maybe this is why people with 200 hours are finding it hard to get a job? In some companys (especially those with rapid expansion) there simply aint enough very experienced captains across the board to keep the average cockpit crew experience levels at a high enough level to satisfy CAA
requirements?
Maybe, Maybe not... just my 3 cents worth!
Hope I havent offended anyone... Just trying to help you see why its not easy to get that first (well paid) job... Best of luck in the Job search, Chin up! It will happen one day!!!
Oh yes forgot to say... If your only in it for the money and GIRLS
and glamour???... Then I have no sympathy!..... You should love to fly first... glory later!
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 475
Likes: 0
From: On the flight deck of course !!
If I was recruiting for my company, In a perfect world I would not look at anyone straight out of a flight school with 200hours unless the majority of my captains were VERY experienced... (You should do some kind of instructing apprenticeship or summit)... But it aint a perfect world!!!!!
And after one year, when he is completely fed up with those conditions he will go to a better company and 1000 other 200TT hours cadets will be ready and fully happy to join the company with the VISA credit card !
Last edited by ICING AOA; 6th April 2007 at 20:33.
Dog Tired
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,686
Likes: 2
From: uk
I offer the following to the wannabees out there:
- There are several airlines recruiting; mine has taken about twenty in the past two months.
- It is not necessary to demonstrate experience. A boss of mine explained that an airline needs very inexperienced pilots; moderately experienced pilots and very experienced pilots. This is because there would be an issue in the seniority lists when commands came up for grabs if all pilots were of similar experience.
- I believe (but may be mistaken) all the pilots recently employed have bought their own type rating. So long as pilots mortgage themselves this way, the system will continue. I have seen several of them and they have about 250-300 hrs total time.
- Good luck to all of you.
- There are several airlines recruiting; mine has taken about twenty in the past two months.
- It is not necessary to demonstrate experience. A boss of mine explained that an airline needs very inexperienced pilots; moderately experienced pilots and very experienced pilots. This is because there would be an issue in the seniority lists when commands came up for grabs if all pilots were of similar experience.
- I believe (but may be mistaken) all the pilots recently employed have bought their own type rating. So long as pilots mortgage themselves this way, the system will continue. I have seen several of them and they have about 250-300 hrs total time.
- Good luck to all of you.
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 139
Likes: 0
From: U.K
Well.. it it took me a fraction under 5 yrs to go from passing my initial IR to my base training on a 737.
I also did 3+ yrs instructing, which I enjoyed more than I ever thought I would, and I miss it.
There is NEVER a shortage of low hours non-type rated people and I doubt there ever will be and airlines need a broad range of experience when recruiting. So you have to do something about it to stand out of the crowd.. I went down the instructing route AND i bought a type rating. I was fortunate enough to get a job immeidately after.
Buying your own rating is a gamble.. but in my own opinion (and without getting drawn into the "moral" argument of self sponsored ratings) and for me, it made good financial sense.. I paid £5k for my FI rating and earned about £7-8k a yr as an instructor, maybe less... I paid £20k for a 737 rating and earned just under £50k in the first yr as an F/O.
Everyone on my TR course got a job, some quickly.. some took few months.
In fact everyine I've ever known who paid for a 737 rating got a job..
Anyway, I digress, the point being, is that to break into the industry, u either need to stand out from the crowd a bit, or be in the right place at the right time... it took me 5yrs, so be patient, stick with it and you'll get there in the end
I also did 3+ yrs instructing, which I enjoyed more than I ever thought I would, and I miss it.
There is NEVER a shortage of low hours non-type rated people and I doubt there ever will be and airlines need a broad range of experience when recruiting. So you have to do something about it to stand out of the crowd.. I went down the instructing route AND i bought a type rating. I was fortunate enough to get a job immeidately after.
Buying your own rating is a gamble.. but in my own opinion (and without getting drawn into the "moral" argument of self sponsored ratings) and for me, it made good financial sense.. I paid £5k for my FI rating and earned about £7-8k a yr as an instructor, maybe less... I paid £20k for a 737 rating and earned just under £50k in the first yr as an F/O.
Everyone on my TR course got a job, some quickly.. some took few months.
In fact everyine I've ever known who paid for a 737 rating got a job..
Anyway, I digress, the point being, is that to break into the industry, u either need to stand out from the crowd a bit, or be in the right place at the right time... it took me 5yrs, so be patient, stick with it and you'll get there in the end
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 916
Likes: 0
From: Near sheep!
Going back to the original post, your personality tells me you are going to struggle to find that first job old chap. Not one of the operators you mentioned are prop operators. I work for a large jet operator, (am not qualified yet), and would do ANYTHING to transfer into the right hand seat in two years, but it probably wont happen.
All the best...
All the best...
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 960
Likes: 0
From: Somewhere In The South China Sea
As a 250hr wannabe I disagree entirely with buying your own Type Rating without a job offer, unless of course you have a spare 23k hanging around where it makes no difference if it doesn't pay off, I would suggest the majority has not.
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,563
Likes: 35
From: I wouldn't know.
It really depends where you want to get hired too. Over here airlines recruit atpl courses before they even get the license and MCC done because they cant find enough newhires, of course you still have to pass the usual assessment center stuff before they let you join, however type ratings are being payed for, you just have to expect slightly lower payscales for the first year (and only a 12 month bond, more isn't legally possible).
Myself i wouldn't ever pay for a typerating, but that is of course my personal choice, still got my first job 7 months after i got my license and in fact could choose between several jobs back then, with only around 250 hours (well, and another 1k on gliders, started flying them at 14).
Myself i wouldn't ever pay for a typerating, but that is of course my personal choice, still got my first job 7 months after i got my license and in fact could choose between several jobs back then, with only around 250 hours (well, and another 1k on gliders, started flying them at 14).
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
From: UK
I agree with everyone saying don’t sit and wait for that gleaming jet.
Coming from New Zealand where you need 2500+ to get on a jet, I couldn’t believe 300hr pilots were flying them
Get out there, instruct, tow banners, gliders, do surveying and air taxi work...its not only fun and hands on but you also learn how to make decisions while enjoying real flying.
Once you have done that for a few years then move on to the big shiny things.
From 18-65 in a jet.....how boring
Coming from New Zealand where you need 2500+ to get on a jet, I couldn’t believe 300hr pilots were flying them
Get out there, instruct, tow banners, gliders, do surveying and air taxi work...its not only fun and hands on but you also learn how to make decisions while enjoying real flying.
Once you have done that for a few years then move on to the big shiny things.
From 18-65 in a jet.....how boring
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 315
Likes: 0
From: U.K.
I would have loved the chance to get on a nice turbo-prop etc but did not have enough experience.
I could not afford the FI route, salary too low to pay off loan and move out etc
I decided to go and pay for a 737 rating (something which I do not agree with). It does not have to be 20k GBP, I paid 21000 Euro including base check.
Went to see the bank manager, he happily agreed to help me and arranged the money straight away. Cancelled my old Pro-studies loan and gave me the extra funds needed. Absoloute saint, although they of course make money out of me, without his help, I would not be where I am today.
I went to a great training provider who helped me out all the way through the training and then pointed me in the right direction for a job. Left work in OCT 06, started TR course in late November, base check Jan 07 and offered a job in April 07. It was a 2 month long interview process
Self-funding is not for everyone and I am not saying its a good thing, but without that 737 on my licence, I would not have a job right now.
I could not afford the FI route, salary too low to pay off loan and move out etc
I decided to go and pay for a 737 rating (something which I do not agree with). It does not have to be 20k GBP, I paid 21000 Euro including base check.
Went to see the bank manager, he happily agreed to help me and arranged the money straight away. Cancelled my old Pro-studies loan and gave me the extra funds needed. Absoloute saint, although they of course make money out of me, without his help, I would not be where I am today.
I went to a great training provider who helped me out all the way through the training and then pointed me in the right direction for a job. Left work in OCT 06, started TR course in late November, base check Jan 07 and offered a job in April 07. It was a 2 month long interview process
Self-funding is not for everyone and I am not saying its a good thing, but without that 737 on my licence, I would not have a job right now.
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 390
Likes: 0
From: London
I was never trying to advocate to go and buy a TR and then try get a job with it. I think it's foolish and I would never advocate it.
By saying "paying for your type rating one way or another", I was referring to how a lot of airlines make you pay for it by either paying you less the first couple of years or using a third party provider (e.g. Wings at CTC) and making you pay part of the training up front. There's not many jet jobs out there offered with no financial strings attached. Again, I did not mean "go pay for a TR and hope for the best".
And I certainly agree that starting your career with instructing and turbo-props is a lot more fun and probably makes you a better pilot. I was lucky to have my flight school finding me a jet job, but in a way I would have preferred starting my career flying for something like Logan or Eastern. I was 35 and my wife's biological clock was ticking loudly, so the jet job and salary were too good to turn down.
My point was... Do not kid yourself in thinking you're avoiding being exploited by going the instructor/turbo-prop way. Just take an Excel spreadsheet and compare your earnings (and expeneses e.g. instructor rating) for the first four years for both career paths. You'll see that you're financially much better off having gone straight to a jet job even if your initial salary was reduced (we're not talking Ryanair here, just look at the likes of Flybe and initial FO salaries if not type rated).
So, one last time... Going the instructor/turboprop route is probably the best way to go in terms of flying skills. But DO NOT think it will also cost you less than signing a jet contract that involves financial sacrifice (what a lot of people call "selling out"). But if you're young and single, go have fun before sitting in the cruise for hours talking about your pension :-)
P
By saying "paying for your type rating one way or another", I was referring to how a lot of airlines make you pay for it by either paying you less the first couple of years or using a third party provider (e.g. Wings at CTC) and making you pay part of the training up front. There's not many jet jobs out there offered with no financial strings attached. Again, I did not mean "go pay for a TR and hope for the best".
And I certainly agree that starting your career with instructing and turbo-props is a lot more fun and probably makes you a better pilot. I was lucky to have my flight school finding me a jet job, but in a way I would have preferred starting my career flying for something like Logan or Eastern. I was 35 and my wife's biological clock was ticking loudly, so the jet job and salary were too good to turn down.
My point was... Do not kid yourself in thinking you're avoiding being exploited by going the instructor/turbo-prop way. Just take an Excel spreadsheet and compare your earnings (and expeneses e.g. instructor rating) for the first four years for both career paths. You'll see that you're financially much better off having gone straight to a jet job even if your initial salary was reduced (we're not talking Ryanair here, just look at the likes of Flybe and initial FO salaries if not type rated).
So, one last time... Going the instructor/turboprop route is probably the best way to go in terms of flying skills. But DO NOT think it will also cost you less than signing a jet contract that involves financial sacrifice (what a lot of people call "selling out"). But if you're young and single, go have fun before sitting in the cruise for hours talking about your pension :-)
P
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
From: Scotland
while i would have loved throwing a little turboprop around the skies when i started ( not long ago at all) the simple fact for me ( and so many others) is that if you just had to spend between 80 and 100 k to get your licence, the bank is breathing down yr neck for 700-800£ /month, you actually have to pay rent, petrol etc, then all that means that most turboprop jobs simply wont break even, not even close, so all you ex RAF boys and airline cadets stop hammering new joiners who simply dont want even more debt.
tata
tata
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
From: Central Scotland
Don't ever pay for a type rating without a job contract
The majority of the posters here are correct "Don't ever pay for a type rating without a job contract". A friend of mine with thousands of piston hours (instructor) got fed up and paid for a type rating. He then, co-incidently got offered a job - but it was on a different type, so he had to pay for a type rating all over again!
There are plenty of FO jobs out there, in fact many airlines are currently interviewing for FO positions, but you need a good bit experience. Belive you me it's hard enough getting up to standard with a good bit of experience to fall back on. Get them hours anyway you can, but preferably in some kind of commercial environment, (air taxi, flight instructing, para dropping etc.) and always try to challange yourself. Eg never fly a VOR radial if you can track an NDB instead.
Remember, in this game you make your own luck.
Ape
There are plenty of FO jobs out there, in fact many airlines are currently interviewing for FO positions, but you need a good bit experience. Belive you me it's hard enough getting up to standard with a good bit of experience to fall back on. Get them hours anyway you can, but preferably in some kind of commercial environment, (air taxi, flight instructing, para dropping etc.) and always try to challange yourself. Eg never fly a VOR radial if you can track an NDB instead.
Remember, in this game you make your own luck.
Ape
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
From: A man of the world
200 hours = CPL + nil experience
Option 1
+ jet type rating = someone with access to £20k (perhaps) + nil experience
Option 2
+ FI + 1000 hrs = someone living within means (perhaps) + some experience
Option 3
+ FI + 500 hrs + turbine job + 500 hrs = someone with initiative + experience
Ask the Chief Pilot who he wants.
You can have 3000 hours or you can have one hour 3000 times - think about it.
Newbees - you decide your own future...
Option 1
+ jet type rating = someone with access to £20k (perhaps) + nil experience
Option 2
+ FI + 1000 hrs = someone living within means (perhaps) + some experience
Option 3
+ FI + 500 hrs + turbine job + 500 hrs = someone with initiative + experience
Ask the Chief Pilot who he wants.
You can have 3000 hours or you can have one hour 3000 times - think about it.
Newbees - you decide your own future...
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
From: Worldwide
N Arslow,
Our bloke seems to want low time cadets on our jets who are cheap.
Not good. It's like being on your own up there some days....
Newbies: Just get some time in doing anything, whether it's banner towing along the beach, Para dropping, glider towing or pay for a FI course. Just keep honing your skills - it will show in the long run and you'll be ahead of the game on the sim ride!
Our bloke seems to want low time cadets on our jets who are cheap.
Not good. It's like being on your own up there some days....
Newbies: Just get some time in doing anything, whether it's banner towing along the beach, Para dropping, glider towing or pay for a FI course. Just keep honing your skills - it will show in the long run and you'll be ahead of the game on the sim ride!
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 417
Likes: 0
From: Scotland
nuageblanc -
Why do you list only jet operators?
Is there something about your experience that makes you ready for jet employers rather than air taxi or turboprop?
Tell us some more about your background and maybe we can help point you in the right direction.
Why do you list only jet operators?
Is there something about your experience that makes you ready for jet employers rather than air taxi or turboprop?
Tell us some more about your background and maybe we can help point you in the right direction.
