WHO THE HELL IS RECRUITING ANY F/Os ????
Steady on Alex. We're all entitled to our opinions but deriding those of others as
is a bit harsh.
The views on this are very polarised. There are those that will agree with Alex and those that will agree with Chicken Leg, and it's not likely that arguments from one group will sway those in the other. However, with that in mind, here are a few personal observations.
I always find it somewhat amusing when people compare becoming a pilot with becoming a lawyer, or a doctor. These are two of the hardest professions to get into and have been for many decades. Paying for ones type-rating to find work as a commercial pilot has only become an increasing trend in the last decade which begs the question; is such a comparison valid?
Whatismore, the Office of National Statistics concluded their first study into Standard Occupational Classifications recently. 'Solicitors and lawyers, judges and coroners', 'medical practicioners', 'architects' and 'chartered and certified accountants' are all in Group 2 - Professional Occupations, whilst 'aircraft pilots and flight engineers' are in Group 3 - Associate Professional and Technical Occupations. So maybe we should be comparing ourselves with our peers, rather than careers that our perhaps outside of our peer group.
Who else is in Group 3 then, out of curiosity? Well, staying on the aviation theme, there are Air Traffic Controllers right next to us on the list. Do ATCO's pay for their own training then? It would seem to be a fair comparison to make. This excerpt would suggest not;
On the same list (group 3) are two different lines of work that I was involved in before I became a pilot. In both cases I was employed on the strength of my ability and potential. In both cases the training that I needed to do the job (ongoing training in the case of my IT job -- Netware admin, Lotus Domino Administrator & Developer, PRINCE2 project management, etc) were provided either by the employer, or at their expense. Not mine.
Some people, like Chicken Leg, may wonder why our industry has to be so different, and why some within our industry seem to argue that it 'has to be this way, because so is every other job' - a claim that is arguable.
My take on it is that it's all down to supply and demand. Many, many newbies 'demanding' more jobs that the airlines can supply. So the airlines upped the ante and asked applicants to buy their TR's, which some did. And as some did, so too did more simply to remaing competitive. And so it goes, the wheel turns ever onward, a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Apart from my observation, it doesn't bother me. I have a flying job, I get paid to do what I enjoy, and I didn't have to pay for extra ratings to get here. So I'm not here to grind an axe, just to point out that there are two sides to this argument and to label either side as
is perhaps a bit glib.
Yeah, I agree with that bit too!
Edit: St. Paul beat me to it... 'Now lets move on to discussing paying for hours on type....now how does the lawyer compare'.
absolute tosh
The views on this are very polarised. There are those that will agree with Alex and those that will agree with Chicken Leg, and it's not likely that arguments from one group will sway those in the other. However, with that in mind, here are a few personal observations.
I always find it somewhat amusing when people compare becoming a pilot with becoming a lawyer, or a doctor. These are two of the hardest professions to get into and have been for many decades. Paying for ones type-rating to find work as a commercial pilot has only become an increasing trend in the last decade which begs the question; is such a comparison valid?
Whatismore, the Office of National Statistics concluded their first study into Standard Occupational Classifications recently. 'Solicitors and lawyers, judges and coroners', 'medical practicioners', 'architects' and 'chartered and certified accountants' are all in Group 2 - Professional Occupations, whilst 'aircraft pilots and flight engineers' are in Group 3 - Associate Professional and Technical Occupations. So maybe we should be comparing ourselves with our peers, rather than careers that our perhaps outside of our peer group.
Who else is in Group 3 then, out of curiosity? Well, staying on the aviation theme, there are Air Traffic Controllers right next to us on the list. Do ATCO's pay for their own training then? It would seem to be a fair comparison to make. This excerpt would suggest not;
Entry requirements vary according to the employer. For National Air Traffic Services, the main employer, you should have at least two A levels/three H grades and five GCSEs/S grades (A-C/1-3), including maths and English, or equivalent qualifications.
After applying, you would normally be invited to a selection day and have the chance to talk to an experienced air traffic controller. Various tests would take place to measure skills such as the ability to check information quickly and accurately, spatial visualisation, mental arithmetic and short-term memory. If successful, you would move to the final interview stage for further tests. Before a job offer is made, you must obtain medical and security clearance.
Some people enter an air traffic control career after gaining experience in a related area such as military air traffic control, commercial or military flying, or civil or military air assistance roles.
Initial training takes place at the College of Air Traffic Control, next to Bournemouth International Airport, and lasts between 6 and 15 months, depending on the selected discipline, during which time you would be paid.
Following graduation from the college, you would go to an operational unit, such as Swanwick, and work alongside an air traffic controller to gain practical training and a qualification. This training period can last approximately 18 months.
With several years' experience it is possible to oversee air traffic controllers as an operational watch supervisor. Alternatively, you can apply to become a trainer of new air traffic controllers.
After applying, you would normally be invited to a selection day and have the chance to talk to an experienced air traffic controller. Various tests would take place to measure skills such as the ability to check information quickly and accurately, spatial visualisation, mental arithmetic and short-term memory. If successful, you would move to the final interview stage for further tests. Before a job offer is made, you must obtain medical and security clearance.
Some people enter an air traffic control career after gaining experience in a related area such as military air traffic control, commercial or military flying, or civil or military air assistance roles.
Initial training takes place at the College of Air Traffic Control, next to Bournemouth International Airport, and lasts between 6 and 15 months, depending on the selected discipline, during which time you would be paid.
Following graduation from the college, you would go to an operational unit, such as Swanwick, and work alongside an air traffic controller to gain practical training and a qualification. This training period can last approximately 18 months.
With several years' experience it is possible to oversee air traffic controllers as an operational watch supervisor. Alternatively, you can apply to become a trainer of new air traffic controllers.
Some people, like Chicken Leg, may wonder why our industry has to be so different, and why some within our industry seem to argue that it 'has to be this way, because so is every other job' - a claim that is arguable.
My take on it is that it's all down to supply and demand. Many, many newbies 'demanding' more jobs that the airlines can supply. So the airlines upped the ante and asked applicants to buy their TR's, which some did. And as some did, so too did more simply to remaing competitive. And so it goes, the wheel turns ever onward, a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Apart from my observation, it doesn't bother me. I have a flying job, I get paid to do what I enjoy, and I didn't have to pay for extra ratings to get here. So I'm not here to grind an axe, just to point out that there are two sides to this argument and to label either side as
utter tosh
but moaning about it on here isn't going to change anything
Edit: St. Paul beat me to it... 'Now lets move on to discussing paying for hours on type....now how does the lawyer compare'.
Last edited by Charley; 17th Jun 2007 at 17:59. Reason: St. Paul's post
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My take on it is that it's all down to supply and demand
What's the name of the game, then: 1st to run to the bank gets it ? A difficult exercice when your pants are lowered BTW
So many of you think you can run faster than me ? Interesting way to qualify for a Pilot's job.
Please, let's stop dumping the Pilot's market.
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Excellent post Charlie; so much more eloquent than I!
I suppose it comes down to how much you want that job. Do you want it so badly that you are happy to reverse the rules of economics ie, you pay the company to work?
Not this callsign, but then perhaps that will mean I never get the job I want. If that's the case, so be it.
I suppose it comes down to how much you want that job. Do you want it so badly that you are happy to reverse the rules of economics ie, you pay the company to work?
Not this callsign, but then perhaps that will mean I never get the job I want. If that's the case, so be it.
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supply and demand
I'd just like to point out that supply and demand are rather the opposite, i.e. workers are a supply of labor and businesses are the demand of it from an economics point of view, being wages the price they have to pay for workers time.
In this times we are now it seems supply of pilots has grown so much that it can provide such a big amount of labor demand is not asking for that negative wages appear, thats it, paying to work.
Thats what basic economics could explain, but i'd like to point out that the ones that pay for their type rating are predominantly those who think this way they can jump up the experience ladder getting a job that would take them some years to obtain otherwise.
In no way i'd like to sound any offensive to anyone, just to point out my thoughts. Paying for one's TR is a very rational decision once you prefer getting that job than the 30k€ it will cost you, so I wouldn't blame anyone on this, its a personal decision. When it comes to people who prefer having those 30k€ than a jet job or that don't have themanyways, its likewise acceptable in my opinion. Its a matter of preferences.
In this times we are now it seems supply of pilots has grown so much that it can provide such a big amount of labor demand is not asking for that negative wages appear, thats it, paying to work.
Thats what basic economics could explain, but i'd like to point out that the ones that pay for their type rating are predominantly those who think this way they can jump up the experience ladder getting a job that would take them some years to obtain otherwise.
In no way i'd like to sound any offensive to anyone, just to point out my thoughts. Paying for one's TR is a very rational decision once you prefer getting that job than the 30k€ it will cost you, so I wouldn't blame anyone on this, its a personal decision. When it comes to people who prefer having those 30k€ than a jet job or that don't have themanyways, its likewise acceptable in my opinion. Its a matter of preferences.
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We set the market
As a group the more of us that pay for a rating.
The more it dilutes the market and in a way tempts employers to take less experienced FO's.
If you have no other option then ok.
Otherwise aren't you agreeing to work for what 10 months for nothing ?
The more it dilutes the market and in a way tempts employers to take less experienced FO's.
If you have no other option then ok.
Otherwise aren't you agreeing to work for what 10 months for nothing ?
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Never mentioned here, but probably not the worst bet: Swiss is recruiting for Swiss Intl and Swiss European. They desperately need pilots and have already increased their salary for newbies (although still not the best package...). Requirements for A320 are 1000h, for ARJ lower (my last info).
And hey: you'll be living in the most beautiful country on earth :-)
And hey: you'll be living in the most beautiful country on earth :-)
