'Will work for free'
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I started flying at 28, It will be five years to the day as of 20/04, I will then be just about to finish my 737 type rating, I have sent 1000's of CV's, knocked on many doors, lost girlfriends & moved countries for work, and since completing my CPL/IR I have not been out of work.
Nobody should sell him or herself short, take what you can and make yourself available, almost everyone I know is now working (as a pilot), either through someone they know or through perseverance.. You must be willing to go that extra mile!
The above has been said before but the amount of people who think they will walk into a job amazes me everyday, if someone finds out I’m a pilot they almost immediately say 1: How did you do that... 2: I can do that! It's not that easy!!
YYZ
Nobody should sell him or herself short, take what you can and make yourself available, almost everyone I know is now working (as a pilot), either through someone they know or through perseverance.. You must be willing to go that extra mile!
The above has been said before but the amount of people who think they will walk into a job amazes me everyday, if someone finds out I’m a pilot they almost immediately say 1: How did you do that... 2: I can do that! It's not that easy!!
YYZ
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Here it is for all those new boys and girls out there.
If you buy your FATPL for anything more than £30k you have wasted your money. If you are smart and play the system right, that is all it should cost you!!
For that reason, if you have a £100k debt then you are a mug because you will have to pay it back and you could have got away with paying a lot less.
This then leads onto the desperation to get that first jet job so you can pay the money back and hence the desire to "work for free" so you can pay it back ASAP!
If you hadnt clocked up such a big debt then you wouldnt be so desperate to get the experience to get that job that pays so much!!
Lastly, whats wrong with flying singles, instucting, towing gliders, taking photos, flying light twins when you have the hours etc etc then turbos etc etc.
People have forgotten what flying is really about and the arrogance and percieved ability that some of the new jet pilots (of my generation), coupled with a complete denial about what working for free does to Ts and C's just frightens me!
OSOP
P.S. There will be an accident at some point with a 250 hour f/o in the RHS and only then will people wake up to the reality of what is actually happening today!
If you buy your FATPL for anything more than £30k you have wasted your money. If you are smart and play the system right, that is all it should cost you!!
For that reason, if you have a £100k debt then you are a mug because you will have to pay it back and you could have got away with paying a lot less.
This then leads onto the desperation to get that first jet job so you can pay the money back and hence the desire to "work for free" so you can pay it back ASAP!
If you hadnt clocked up such a big debt then you wouldnt be so desperate to get the experience to get that job that pays so much!!
Lastly, whats wrong with flying singles, instucting, towing gliders, taking photos, flying light twins when you have the hours etc etc then turbos etc etc.
People have forgotten what flying is really about and the arrogance and percieved ability that some of the new jet pilots (of my generation), coupled with a complete denial about what working for free does to Ts and C's just frightens me!
OSOP
P.S. There will be an accident at some point with a 250 hour f/o in the RHS and only then will people wake up to the reality of what is actually happening today!
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conditions of pilots
Okay I have been an airline pilot for 22 years and worked for the most part in the charter market or at least non -major airlines. I have seen our conditions erode each year whether it be in pay or days off or in overall conditions. I think it is in part that we as pilots have let the operators gain control, if that is true or not what is a fact is that other people are determining our futures without our input. it is time to change the trend and become united in some form or manner. Every ATPL holder no matter from where who holds an ICAO licence should have a minimum starting salary . Should have a maximum duty period not ambigious to a company or country operation. A passenger bus chaffeur in europe has stricter rules. If ICAO can organize the operators that are members then why as Pilots can we not organize and defend our lively hood.
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I don't think I would see this in any other industry, or at least not to the extent that it exists in ours. It's not passion, enthusiasm, or ambition - this is obsessive behaviour, plain and simple. Where does one finish and the other start? Name me one other profession that people spend as much on training for an ATPL in the full knowledge that less than half of them will make it, please? How many times have you heard "it is my dream", or "I have spent X on this and can't believe I haven't a job?" Others glory in the masochistic fashion in which they finally broke into the industry, everyone has their war storys, and you praise spouses for putting up with what people should not have to put up with, saying they understand and support what you're doing, they knew this when they married you, etc.
Have you ever noticed that it's always someone else who's ruining the industry? And you complain that the industry takes advantage of you? Is it the flying schools fault that they fill you full of crap about how many jobs are out there, or is it your fault for not questioning it because they are telling you what you want to hear? Is it Ryanair's fault for treating you like dirt, or is it your fault because you are rationalising somone taking advantage of you?
You can't complain you don't know thanks to people like scroggs who tirelessly make sense, but know they are talking to themselves. I had an intelligent, talented schoolfriend who ended up a literal basketcase because he was obsessed about being a lawyer and never made it. I had another schoolfriend who left a good job with good prospects to join the army because he had some ad-induced notion of running around the Glen of Imaal with rifle in hand and the sun glinting off his helmet - he lasted 2 weeks, and came home jobless. The best you could say for those 2 guys is that neither ran up a huge debt or hurt anybody else in doing what they did, as they were both single.
Please don't take this personally, it's meant to be a counterpoint. There is a big difference between a wannabe and a lemming - I think it's sad that some of the best pilots had enough cop-on given the circumstances to stop at a ppl and just enjoy it.
Have you ever noticed that it's always someone else who's ruining the industry? And you complain that the industry takes advantage of you? Is it the flying schools fault that they fill you full of crap about how many jobs are out there, or is it your fault for not questioning it because they are telling you what you want to hear? Is it Ryanair's fault for treating you like dirt, or is it your fault because you are rationalising somone taking advantage of you?
You can't complain you don't know thanks to people like scroggs who tirelessly make sense, but know they are talking to themselves. I had an intelligent, talented schoolfriend who ended up a literal basketcase because he was obsessed about being a lawyer and never made it. I had another schoolfriend who left a good job with good prospects to join the army because he had some ad-induced notion of running around the Glen of Imaal with rifle in hand and the sun glinting off his helmet - he lasted 2 weeks, and came home jobless. The best you could say for those 2 guys is that neither ran up a huge debt or hurt anybody else in doing what they did, as they were both single.
Please don't take this personally, it's meant to be a counterpoint. There is a big difference between a wannabe and a lemming - I think it's sad that some of the best pilots had enough cop-on given the circumstances to stop at a ppl and just enjoy it.
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[BIf you buy your FATPL for anything more than £30k you have wasted your money. If you are smart and play the system right, that is all it should cost you!!
For that reason, if you have a £100k debt then you are a mug because you will have to pay it back and you could have got away with paying a lot less.
This then leads onto the desperation to get that first jet job so you can pay the money back and hence the desire to "work for free" so you can pay it back ASAP!
If you hadnt clocked up such a big debt then you wouldnt be so desperate to get the experience to get that job that pays so much!![/B]
For that reason, if you have a £100k debt then you are a mug because you will have to pay it back and you could have got away with paying a lot less.
This then leads onto the desperation to get that first jet job so you can pay the money back and hence the desire to "work for free" so you can pay it back ASAP!
If you hadnt clocked up such a big debt then you wouldnt be so desperate to get the experience to get that job that pays so much!![/B]
Do consider though, the likes of BA will not hire a newbie unless he/she has been through an integrated course (in other words BA will not hire you unless you are rich or willing to live in poverty). Now most pilots don’t believe for one minute that modular students are inferior than integrated but apparently this is what a “study” of new recruits back in the 90’s “proved” at BA.
This is why far too many people (nutcases) out there pay £60k (in reality 100k if you consider interest and lost earnings) for flying training that can be achieved at half the cost. Also this is what BMI, Excel and a several others supposedly want….well that’s what it says in the flight school brochures anyway! Integrated training is big business.
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Flightschools tell you everything you want to hear! It's mostly crap!
I nearly went down this route of working for free for 150 hours, then I thought better of it. SOMEONE CAN PAY ME FOR LINE TRAINING THANKS!!
DON'T DO IT!!
I nearly went down this route of working for free for 150 hours, then I thought better of it. SOMEONE CAN PAY ME FOR LINE TRAINING THANKS!!
DON'T DO IT!!
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People seem to be confusing a number of issues here. It is all very well "wanting to be a pilot" but how many people actually check that they have the aptitude for the job. Sensible individuals will research such details before coughing up large amounts of cash. When I trained their were plenty of people doing their CPL/IR's who had loads of money but absolutely no chance of ever being professional pilots.
And that is what we are talking about, professional pilots fly for money, if you do not, then you are merely an enthusiastic amateur.
If you have the ability, aptitude, and meet the strict personality profiles you will get a job. Otherwise, all the type ratings in the world won't help.
To be a professional pilot means to behave in a professional manner, I do not fly because I love flying. I fly because it maximises the return on my skill set. It is a return on capital employed, namely me.
Nothing wrong with day-dreaming, but a lot of people in here seem niave bordering on mental illness. It is a job, like every other job it has good points, and bad points, Scroggs is the voice of reason.
If you want to fly, get a well paid job and join the local flying club. A professional pilot is paid to "operate" the aircraft, very little "flying" takes place. It is a very dull job.
And before you jump in with "i'll do your job instead", you can't, much as I would like to play for Real Madrid, and I would do it for less money, does not mean I will be replacing David Beckham any time soon.
Harry
p.s. VT, are you sure you are 35, you sound more like 15 to me...
And that is what we are talking about, professional pilots fly for money, if you do not, then you are merely an enthusiastic amateur.
If you have the ability, aptitude, and meet the strict personality profiles you will get a job. Otherwise, all the type ratings in the world won't help.
To be a professional pilot means to behave in a professional manner, I do not fly because I love flying. I fly because it maximises the return on my skill set. It is a return on capital employed, namely me.
Nothing wrong with day-dreaming, but a lot of people in here seem niave bordering on mental illness. It is a job, like every other job it has good points, and bad points, Scroggs is the voice of reason.
If you want to fly, get a well paid job and join the local flying club. A professional pilot is paid to "operate" the aircraft, very little "flying" takes place. It is a very dull job.
And before you jump in with "i'll do your job instead", you can't, much as I would like to play for Real Madrid, and I would do it for less money, does not mean I will be replacing David Beckham any time soon.
Harry
p.s. VT, are you sure you are 35, you sound more like 15 to me...
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If you have the ability, aptitude, and meet the strict personality profiles you will get a job.
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Harry Wragg saddles up one last time...
If you have the ability, aptitude, and meet the strict personality profiles you will get a job.
Harry Wragg do you mean the same ability, aptitude and strict personality profiles that make the British Armed forces one of the hardest selection and training grounds in the world?
If you want to enter into a battle of wits I suggest that just to be gentlemanly both us are equally equipped. I suggest you get down the store and buy some wits as clearly yours are not with you! Failing that you could actually learn to read before charging into the fray without having read the whole thread.
You quote Scroggs as the voice of reason, is this the same reason that in another thread supported WWW in saying that planned bankruptcy seemed a bit like a cunning ruse and one up against the system.
I have my debts, I made them and I have always paid back every penny I have ever owed thus not burdening the rest of society with increased interest rates to make provision for unrecoverable debt. (I am not saying that I agree or disagree with the principle I am saying that I personally have higher standards of responsibility to those who do not have a choice)
We all have a choice I have made mine and you do not have to like that I have made it or even agree with it but you should accept or at least understand my fundamental right to make it based on my well tested, well proven and demonstrable attributes with respect to flying. Not on what you do or do not believe. If you cannot deal with that then maybe aviation is not right for you not me, maybe you are the one who slipped through the net.
On speed, on profile had it occured to you that debt can be built up from lack of earnings as well as capital expenditure. Those who get their licence and then instruct and/or work in other low paid jobs can hardly pay their mortgages on £8-18k a year hence if you spend 3-4 years waiting for said job and previously were on £40k plus then you will find yourself getting £30k a year more in debt each year for each year spent in low paid jobs. Not just on training.
As for what's wrong with singles, etc errmr read above, read my previous posts and you will find the answer NOTHING it just doesn't pay a living wage. The debate if you remember was on the virtues of working for little or no reward IN ORDER TO gain greater reward. Why would you choose an option that paid you less for no foreseeable gain when you already have the requisite experience from the activities you mentioned. If I were a new guy with 250hrs then fine, I would take that on the chin. I'm not, so shan't.
Now can someone please come up with a non-selfish reason not to work for companies that bond or ask for SSTR/little or no reward initially other than the Ts&Cs thing as it is clear that Ts&Cs are being eroded and it is clear that the SSTR/bond route is a symptom not the root cause of this.
It is lastly but not leastly abundantly clear that much as some of you may believe that we haven't all thought it through. We have, we are educated, we have planned our routes, thoroughly researched all aspects of them and just DO NOT AGREE with you. We don't have to, it's a free world as well as a free market.
If you don't like it join a union get into management and somehow change it but quit whining about it as you are more likely to secure orders for the A380F than you are to make the growing number of us realizing that this is the way forward to suddenly realize that we have neglected some fundamental part of our reasearch, have what alcoholics refer to as a moment of clarity and about turn on our position.
Anymore for anymore.....
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VT, most eloquent, but rather missing the point.
The dynamic is simple: work free now = reduced rewards in future, get paid now (or have patience til the right job comes up) = higher rewards in future.
Obviously there are many airlines prepared to facilitate your amateur aviating, unfortunately this puts said airlines at a cost advantage. The logical, but regrettable, conclusion is that airlines who employ staff who want to WORK (not play, that's you remember) for a living are forced to reduce T&C's to compete.
Now you may be happy to be a gentleman aviator, but you're taking a position that would otherwise be filled by someone who would rather get paid for their labours. Seeing as most airlines couldn't give a toss about experience in the right seat, your arguments about unpaid experience gaining paid work (a la law etc, where experience counts) is total garbage.
Now comes the bleating about you deserving it as much as anyone else, so let's be blunt. If you are prepared to fulfil a position that undercuts those, particularly more experienced, who would rather get paid a proper salary for doing the job, and have earned the right to such a salary, then no, you don't deserve it as much. Those who have gained experience and worked hard for it don't deserve to see their T&C's go down the swannee because you believe you have a god-given right to a jet. 99% of pilots did not screw their colleagues to get said experience.
Hmmm, gotta lose the attitude buddy, no-one likes a drill sergeant in the flight deck.
The debate if you remember was on the virtues of working for little or no reward IN ORDER TO gain greater reward
Obviously there are many airlines prepared to facilitate your amateur aviating, unfortunately this puts said airlines at a cost advantage. The logical, but regrettable, conclusion is that airlines who employ staff who want to WORK (not play, that's you remember) for a living are forced to reduce T&C's to compete.
Now you may be happy to be a gentleman aviator, but you're taking a position that would otherwise be filled by someone who would rather get paid for their labours. Seeing as most airlines couldn't give a toss about experience in the right seat, your arguments about unpaid experience gaining paid work (a la law etc, where experience counts) is total garbage.
Now comes the bleating about you deserving it as much as anyone else, so let's be blunt. If you are prepared to fulfil a position that undercuts those, particularly more experienced, who would rather get paid a proper salary for doing the job, and have earned the right to such a salary, then no, you don't deserve it as much. Those who have gained experience and worked hard for it don't deserve to see their T&C's go down the swannee because you believe you have a god-given right to a jet. 99% of pilots did not screw their colleagues to get said experience.
If you want to enter into a battle of wits
Anymore for anymore.....
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You are right I'm sorry I actually do hate aviation :)
Okay I give in you are all right. I am the only person to see the merits of working for next to nothing. I invented the SSTR and also the bond and I in my day job as VT Almighty have also reduced the terms and conditions for airlines that do not even realize or care I exist.
In fact the 99% of pilots who did not screw anybody over for a job are all nice guys and I am just a cad and a bounder who is in this game to ruin it for everyone else.
In honesty this was a long held desire of mine. I honed my skills during my 'amateur' aviating wasting the taxpayers money on a flying scholarship (awarded for my lack of knowledge, application, lack of enthusiasm and having cheated at the tests).
Not content with wasting the tax payers money and to save getting a pizza delivery job at Uni I elected to join the UAS again cheating at the tests at OASC as I fancied seeing if I could get one up against the system so that those real professional aviators (just like you) would have another route closed down to them.
Then to put the icing on the cake I decided to waste hundreds of thousands of pounds of the taxpayers money, of course at no inconvience to myself and of course for the last time having proved myself a true amateur totally lacking in conviction, ability and generally blagging my way through the 6 days of interviews and tests and of course blagging the entire easy as pie year at Sandhurst; to train for a job I did not really like that much, get posted all over the world finding new and interesting ways to try and get myself killed all because I fancied being a gentleman aviator.
Not content with that I then left, decided to earn next to nothing as an instructor and spend my hard earnt equity on courses for no reason as I thought it may be glamourous and am now a little peturbed to find out that Ryanair have no officers messes, don't support sporting games that stop for tea and don't even have a mess kit for the Summer Ball or sponsor a polo team. Disasterously the chief pilot is not even called Tarquin. Gosh whatever next!!
Sorry to leave it here but the Baby eating Bishop of Barton Wells is coming round for dinner having just come back from holidaying on his yatch The Saucy Sue with the Balanese Goddess of Plenty and I need to go shopping for a nice juicy steak to go with the sauce Bernaise and a bottle of Chateau Lafite 1858...
(It's more plausible )
Patience doh I'm 35 I learnt to fly when I was 16 how long should I wait? Flyboy I clearly am not in it for the trimmings there arent any where I work so maybe just maybe I'm in if for the flying and thus and willing to work for little or no reward to make the future better for me and mine.... Re the jet thing said in in no less than 8 posts IT WAS THE ONLY JOB AVAILABLE if it was flying PA28s I wouldn't have cared!!!!
In fact the 99% of pilots who did not screw anybody over for a job are all nice guys and I am just a cad and a bounder who is in this game to ruin it for everyone else.
In honesty this was a long held desire of mine. I honed my skills during my 'amateur' aviating wasting the taxpayers money on a flying scholarship (awarded for my lack of knowledge, application, lack of enthusiasm and having cheated at the tests).
Not content with wasting the tax payers money and to save getting a pizza delivery job at Uni I elected to join the UAS again cheating at the tests at OASC as I fancied seeing if I could get one up against the system so that those real professional aviators (just like you) would have another route closed down to them.
Then to put the icing on the cake I decided to waste hundreds of thousands of pounds of the taxpayers money, of course at no inconvience to myself and of course for the last time having proved myself a true amateur totally lacking in conviction, ability and generally blagging my way through the 6 days of interviews and tests and of course blagging the entire easy as pie year at Sandhurst; to train for a job I did not really like that much, get posted all over the world finding new and interesting ways to try and get myself killed all because I fancied being a gentleman aviator.
Not content with that I then left, decided to earn next to nothing as an instructor and spend my hard earnt equity on courses for no reason as I thought it may be glamourous and am now a little peturbed to find out that Ryanair have no officers messes, don't support sporting games that stop for tea and don't even have a mess kit for the Summer Ball or sponsor a polo team. Disasterously the chief pilot is not even called Tarquin. Gosh whatever next!!
Sorry to leave it here but the Baby eating Bishop of Barton Wells is coming round for dinner having just come back from holidaying on his yatch The Saucy Sue with the Balanese Goddess of Plenty and I need to go shopping for a nice juicy steak to go with the sauce Bernaise and a bottle of Chateau Lafite 1858...
(It's more plausible
)Patience doh I'm 35 I learnt to fly when I was 16 how long should I wait? Flyboy I clearly am not in it for the trimmings there arent any where I work so maybe just maybe I'm in if for the flying and thus and willing to work for little or no reward to make the future better for me and mine.... Re the jet thing said in in no less than 8 posts IT WAS THE ONLY JOB AVAILABLE if it was flying PA28s I wouldn't have cared!!!!
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Dont take your anger out on vt
This is the first time I have been forced to intervene on someones behalf. I think those of us that are angry here should be angry at the system not vt.1)The foundation for where we find ourselves today was laid when the first fool decided to approach an airline more than five years ago and said you know what I'll pay for my own rating.
Can anyone here honestly imagine applying to london underground to be a train driver and london underground saying you have to pay for your training becauce you like trains so much.
An average train driver earns more than most first officers(cadet) probably with the exception of BA and Virgin.
While there are lots of people here more than willing to admit it that they will pay for a type rating if they had the money. Well over a thousand pilots have done the same thing vortex thing is trying to do but at least he's honest enough to give us a backgroung of why he's concidering it now. It obviously wasn't his first option.
You only need to look at the ryanair forum to see the number of people happy at been called for a ryanair selection everyday somebody joins the queue and I am saying this I was one of them but did not get in. Am I angry no! at least they bothered to call me for the selection process and like I mentioned earlier it was a good experience. A friend that we both passed our cpl on the same day currently has over thirty rejection letters and that was since april last year.
Someone mentioned aptitude I know a lot of guys you will call excellent pilots with first time passes in everything and the right personality to get along with anybody from anywhere on the flight deck yet they haven't been called for a single interview let alone getting a shot they are even in the right age group. I have also seen those with money, over thirty and a couple of resits flying jets as I post this simply becauce they have the money. Yes life is never fair.
Like I said earlier If you cant beat them you join them. or as they say in America Dont hate the player hate the game!!!
Every flight magazine you open you see adverts from companies who are waiting to exploit pilots asking them to pay for rating and hours. Can you imagine London underground advertising for train drivers to pay for the training and work for three monmths without pay so that it will give them a better chance of getting a job with the intercity ones that pay so well.
We are human and it is very easy for those already in the industry especially those that have been it for more than seven years before this whole mess began to try and tell people not to it but then as with all things you cant stop it. Stopping this rot will take a huge collective effort both by those already in the industry and those of us looking for jobs.
At least VT worked as an instructor for a while I know a lot of people who never bothered they simply splashed out the money for a rating after thier MEIR and I can tell you for sure all those that I know that took this route are currently flying jets.
VT i wish you all the best while I do not approve of working for less than you are worth the situation in which we find ourselves today is not your fault and quite frankly should you give up the post I am sure there are hundereds waiting to fill it. We are all part of the problem. And the airlines are very aware of this BA and a couple of other have stopped thier sponsorship programmes.
*I know I will be crucified for posting this as I have always tried to keep an open mind and see why people sometimes post what they do. The good thing is that there is a way to go back and see all the postings I've made since joing this forum before jumping to any conclusions about my motive.
Call me naive but the surefire way to stop this is to go the American or Canadian way where you cant get near a jet till you are well over a thousand hours mostly gained through instructing even then they start you off on turboprop . I dont know how the political lobbying system in this parliarment works perhaps scroggs will be more enlightened about that having been in the forces. The ministers need to know about this and with the CAA do something about it.
The mere thought of going down this route will act as a pshycological filter that will clearly act as a deterence to a fair percentage of those who embarked upon flight training in this country or Europe if we had such a system. Would it have detered me probably not but it will forced me to take a harder look at my options i.e age ,family ,finances, and when you start earning. I would definately have gone a different route.
A lot of people borrow money from the bank with the expectation that they will walk in to a job right after thier MEIR only to discover its not that straight forward. I was fortunate enough to see the reality from those around me who finished years ago that this wasn't the case. Therefore I was under no illusions but the good thing is eventually if you try hard enough you will eventually get the job.
Like we say in Africa everybody is going to the market place and will eventually get there through different routes.
Last edited by nuclear weapon; 26th Feb 2007 at 16:45.
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I've stayed away from this for a few days because I felt that VT was getting a hard time for being honest, and that's not fair. There is a great deal wrong with the baby-pilot employment system in UK - and it's spreading elsewhere. It's not his fault. As he says, it can only really be dealt with by unified action from within the airlines by the wrokforces involved. Sadly, history doesn't give me much cause to hope that things will improve for those of you beginning your time in commercial aviation, who will have little incentive to improve things for those coming after you.
VT, all I can say is 'good luck'. I think you'll need it - especially to achieve the kind of returns you think you have a 'right' to! I hope you don't have cause, in a couple of years' time, to regret any of the decisions you have made or the course you took.
Scroggs
VT, all I can say is 'good luck'. I think you'll need it - especially to achieve the kind of returns you think you have a 'right' to! I hope you don't have cause, in a couple of years' time, to regret any of the decisions you have made or the course you took.
Scroggs
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Nuclear Weapon -thank god for the voice of reason. (never thought I would come across a context where ‘voice of reason’ and ‘nuclear weapon’ would appear in the same sentence!)
Many contributors to this site, I would suggest, have rather elastic principles and somewhat overly biased views.
There is the group that complain of the wealthy who set out to buy advancement of their aviation careers, but at the same time pay for private education for their own children. Presumably in part to give them an advantage in the education and future employment market over the rest of the kids.
There is the group of experienced professionals that criticise ‘newbies’ for paying for their TR, who, if starting out on their careers now would have very little choice if they wanted to progress. Would they flex their principles or abandon their chosen profession?
There is the group who think that everyone should start on a Tigermoth and gently work up through the ranks before sitting in a jet. Any professional pilot, worth their salt, when asked privately, will tell you that getting the first job is the hardest and take anything you can get. If asked publicly on these forums you will invite a lecture on your responsibilities to the current professionals to maintain their T&Cs. If Ryanair operated TPs, would the clamour for employment by them be any less?
There is the group that commonly say, the inexperience in the RH seat means that the aircraft is effectively being flown single crew. Are these the same people who complain of the pittance many RH seat occupants are being paid? Providing evidence of deteriorating T&Cs
One could go on, but essentially these are arguments by those safely tucked up in employment about having the same or better terms and conditions in a totally different environment to the one they entered, and blaming the young and new for undermining them.
“I find that principles have no real force except when one is well fed” - Mark Twain
There have always been many youngsters who would like to be and have had the ability to become professional pilots. Back along, a lucky few were selected. There were no opportunities for the unlucky ones, the majority, however suited or committed. Had there been other opportunities, no doubt the purchase of TR’s would have been endemic then, and probably even more restricted to the moneyed classes.
There remains a lucky few but now many of the others can progress if they can lay their hands on the cash by fair or foul means. They risk wasting the money, there are no guarantees. If they can adopt ways that they consider will lower the risk, why should they be criticised? Wish them good luck, it is unlikely they will change the world by their actions.
It is dramatic change in the industry over the last 5 to 10 years and not the degradation of principles that has eroded and continues to erode the T&Cs.
It is the experienced who have the power at their disposal to improve things, but understandably, they are not prepared to take the risks involved. It is safer and easier to blame the vulnerable and satisfy ones own conscience.
“We all live in the protection of certain cowardices which we call our principles” – Mark Twain
I wish Vortex T good fortune, he doesn’t deserve to disappear down the plughole as some of the comments on this thread possibly imply. Wherever he ends up he can look back and console himself, if necessary, with the fact that he left no stone unturned. Unlike those who will say “If only I…….
(My belated thanks to Mark Twain for his wisdom on the nature of principles)
Many contributors to this site, I would suggest, have rather elastic principles and somewhat overly biased views.
There is the group that complain of the wealthy who set out to buy advancement of their aviation careers, but at the same time pay for private education for their own children. Presumably in part to give them an advantage in the education and future employment market over the rest of the kids.
There is the group of experienced professionals that criticise ‘newbies’ for paying for their TR, who, if starting out on their careers now would have very little choice if they wanted to progress. Would they flex their principles or abandon their chosen profession?
There is the group who think that everyone should start on a Tigermoth and gently work up through the ranks before sitting in a jet. Any professional pilot, worth their salt, when asked privately, will tell you that getting the first job is the hardest and take anything you can get. If asked publicly on these forums you will invite a lecture on your responsibilities to the current professionals to maintain their T&Cs. If Ryanair operated TPs, would the clamour for employment by them be any less?
There is the group that commonly say, the inexperience in the RH seat means that the aircraft is effectively being flown single crew. Are these the same people who complain of the pittance many RH seat occupants are being paid? Providing evidence of deteriorating T&Cs
One could go on, but essentially these are arguments by those safely tucked up in employment about having the same or better terms and conditions in a totally different environment to the one they entered, and blaming the young and new for undermining them.
“I find that principles have no real force except when one is well fed” - Mark Twain
There have always been many youngsters who would like to be and have had the ability to become professional pilots. Back along, a lucky few were selected. There were no opportunities for the unlucky ones, the majority, however suited or committed. Had there been other opportunities, no doubt the purchase of TR’s would have been endemic then, and probably even more restricted to the moneyed classes.
There remains a lucky few but now many of the others can progress if they can lay their hands on the cash by fair or foul means. They risk wasting the money, there are no guarantees. If they can adopt ways that they consider will lower the risk, why should they be criticised? Wish them good luck, it is unlikely they will change the world by their actions.
It is dramatic change in the industry over the last 5 to 10 years and not the degradation of principles that has eroded and continues to erode the T&Cs.
It is the experienced who have the power at their disposal to improve things, but understandably, they are not prepared to take the risks involved. It is safer and easier to blame the vulnerable and satisfy ones own conscience.
“We all live in the protection of certain cowardices which we call our principles” – Mark Twain
I wish Vortex T good fortune, he doesn’t deserve to disappear down the plughole as some of the comments on this thread possibly imply. Wherever he ends up he can look back and console himself, if necessary, with the fact that he left no stone unturned. Unlike those who will say “If only I…….
(My belated thanks to Mark Twain for his wisdom on the nature of principles)
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: The 51st State
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What the **** has principles to do with anything. I need to eat, drink, and be sheltered. If I have a particulalrly nice shelter I might get a ****. Check out Maslows heirarchy of needs if you don't believe me.
Ergo, I fly for money, no money...no fly. And yes I have been in this industry long enough to be surplus to requirements. It didn't make me work for free, I just went and got a job elsewhere.
If you want to make it in flying you better be good at something else. If people are gullible enough to give their services away then that is their problem. I guess you will go hungry or bankrupt...
Harry...show me the money $$$$$$$$$
Ergo, I fly for money, no money...no fly. And yes I have been in this industry long enough to be surplus to requirements. It didn't make me work for free, I just went and got a job elsewhere.
If you want to make it in flying you better be good at something else. If people are gullible enough to give their services away then that is their problem. I guess you will go hungry or bankrupt...
Harry...show me the money $$$$$$$$$
