Pilot Strike at KLM?
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I do believe this matter will never get solved without people being hurt, or set back.
Also I believe that the smallest group will not be best off in this matter.
Furthermore I am sure that nobody in KLM will mind if the entire KLC UK workforce joins KLM mainline, however this has to be at the bottem of the list. The same offer as in 2002. Unfortunately the more time this takes, the offer gets worse. So get Balpa to arrange something now!
VNV probably not mind getting rid of the FTE deadline.
They have already indicated that it will not mean firing people. (it was indeed intended for Buzz purposes).
But VNV will also not put efforts in non member issues.
Also I believe that the smallest group will not be best off in this matter.
Furthermore I am sure that nobody in KLM will mind if the entire KLC UK workforce joins KLM mainline, however this has to be at the bottem of the list. The same offer as in 2002. Unfortunately the more time this takes, the offer gets worse. So get Balpa to arrange something now!
VNV probably not mind getting rid of the FTE deadline.
They have already indicated that it will not mean firing people. (it was indeed intended for Buzz purposes).
But VNV will also not put efforts in non member issues.
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Last week KLM came to the UK pilots with derisiory and insulting offer to join mainline. They expect the pilots at apply to KLM, go through selection then if successful be placed on the bottom of the seniority list and demoted in line with the new seniority, If unsuccessful then placed on the bottom of the list, demoted in line with new seniority and restricted to short haul operations.
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Ok I am not impressed with the way KLM is dealing with this subject, but still....
The KLM UK pilots should be quite happy with the offer presented to them in the past couple of years. They had the chance to join mainline AND fly the heavy metal in the future. This is something they would never achieve when everything would stuck to the old... so in my eyes there's only a plus....everybody stay where they are and once they got enough seniority they go to mainline/heavy metal, what's the problem?......they had never the possiblity to fly intercontinental within AirUk.....
Regards...positve thinker....
The KLM UK pilots should be quite happy with the offer presented to them in the past couple of years. They had the chance to join mainline AND fly the heavy metal in the future. This is something they would never achieve when everything would stuck to the old... so in my eyes there's only a plus....everybody stay where they are and once they got enough seniority they go to mainline/heavy metal, what's the problem?......they had never the possiblity to fly intercontinental within AirUk.....
Regards...positve thinker....
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Originally Posted by nonickname
Ok I am not impressed with the way KLM is dealing with this subject, but still....
....everybody stay where they are and once they got enough seniority they go to mainline/heavy metal, what's the problem?......
....everybody stay where they are and once they got enough seniority they go to mainline/heavy metal, what's the problem?......
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Originally Posted by nonickname
Ok I am not impressed with the way KLM is dealing with this subject, but still....
..everybody stay where they are and once they got enough seniority they go to mainline/heavy metal, what's the problem?......they had never the possiblity to fly intercontinental within AirUk.....
Regards...positve thinker....
..everybody stay where they are and once they got enough seniority they go to mainline/heavy metal, what's the problem?......they had never the possiblity to fly intercontinental within AirUk.....
Regards...positve thinker....
This is not about flying intercontinental or heavy metal, if i wanted to to that I would have left years ago to an airline that did, what this is about is fair and equal treatment and long term security. We are not allowed to recruit new pilots into KLCuk, all OUR aircraft have been integrated into YOUR airline. Now you want us to apply (beg?) then if successful (or unsuccesful!) be demoted and go to the bottom of your list. so 90 F100/ F70 Captains become F50 first officers or second officers!!
This is a totally impractical and derisory offer, Lets pray for you that the French see this differently and treat you in a fair and equal manner..........
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Why this offer is Not Acceptable
In summary, KLM have made the following offer to pilots employed by KLM Cityhopper uk:
1. Go through KLM selection process to ensure "quality";
2. If selected go to bottom of seniority list and have a function in accordance with that seniority;
3. Pay will be 'protected' at current level until KLM pay catches up.
This is not acceptable for the following reasons:
1. If KLM have an issue with the "quality" of KLCuk pilots they should have said this before having us fly with "KLM" on the side of our aircraft. This first happened in 1999. Too late to raise it as an issue now.
2. I can live with starting at the bottom of the seniority list. However there are very big flight safety implications in demoting a pilot, appointing someone with less experience to do his job and then expecting the 2 pilots to fly together. This reverse experience gradient is something an airline which takes flight safety seriously ought to take careful heed of.
3. The term 'pay protection' has not been defined. I will bet my pension (again) that KLM interpret it to mean that existing pay stands still until KLM pay cattches up. That is effectively a pay cut.
KLM want Cityhopper to harmonise the jet fleet divisions (NL and UK) so we all fly together. We will all use the same procedures, fly the same aircraft to the same places with the same cabin crew in the same weather. We should all be on the same contract. To be on different contracts is dicriminatory.
To expect a KLM Cityhopper uk pilot to earn less to be on the same contract is even more discriminatory.
1. Go through KLM selection process to ensure "quality";
2. If selected go to bottom of seniority list and have a function in accordance with that seniority;
3. Pay will be 'protected' at current level until KLM pay catches up.
This is not acceptable for the following reasons:
1. If KLM have an issue with the "quality" of KLCuk pilots they should have said this before having us fly with "KLM" on the side of our aircraft. This first happened in 1999. Too late to raise it as an issue now.
2. I can live with starting at the bottom of the seniority list. However there are very big flight safety implications in demoting a pilot, appointing someone with less experience to do his job and then expecting the 2 pilots to fly together. This reverse experience gradient is something an airline which takes flight safety seriously ought to take careful heed of.
3. The term 'pay protection' has not been defined. I will bet my pension (again) that KLM interpret it to mean that existing pay stands still until KLM pay cattches up. That is effectively a pay cut.
KLM want Cityhopper to harmonise the jet fleet divisions (NL and UK) so we all fly together. We will all use the same procedures, fly the same aircraft to the same places with the same cabin crew in the same weather. We should all be on the same contract. To be on different contracts is dicriminatory.
To expect a KLM Cityhopper uk pilot to earn less to be on the same contract is even more discriminatory.
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I think the selection is initiated by KLM. I cannot imagine VNV cares about that, as long as the ex-air-uk-ers join at the bottom of the list.
What if there was no selection, joining would be at the bottom, and function and pay would be frozen (corrected for inflation) until KLM seniority catched up? Would that be acceptable?
What if there was no selection, joining would be at the bottom, and function and pay would be frozen (corrected for inflation) until KLM seniority catched up? Would that be acceptable?
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Did Cityhopper go to the bottom of the KLM list when they were fully integrated?
Are the VNV proposing that all KLM staff go to the bottom of the Air France list when they finally integrate?
I assume your own answers to the above 2 questions will lead you into the answer you are seeking?
Are the VNV proposing that all KLM staff go to the bottom of the Air France list when they finally integrate?
I assume your own answers to the above 2 questions will lead you into the answer you are seeking?
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If you ask then the ideal would be something like date of joining senioirity, protection of career and pay until KLM seniority overtook position/pay and UK basing (or substancial payment to allow for move costs/travelling in the future).
Ideally somewhere in between the two should be fair and achievable.
Ideally somewhere in between the two should be fair and achievable.
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Originally Posted by 75base
You won't get the seniority or any money to move to ams. How come there wasn't this fight for the terms of joining mainline three and a half years ago? The reason was that all the senior guy's were interested in at the time was 737 commands with transfer rights to Buzz. The people who took the deal then had to join on the basic terms you have been offered now, not ideal as you clearly express. But it wasn't ideal then either and no one fought for a better deal then.
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The way the integration was arranged with KLC in the past was not like the proposed deal above: date of entering the company. It was a mixture that hurt the people with more years within KLC more than it did the people that had just recently joined. The only difference I can see between the present cross-over option and the one in 2002/3 is the period in which one could keep function/pay. It all looks like negotiating techniques and probably KLM anticipates a return offer from BALPA. I think joining KLM at the bottom of the list with function/pay protection is reasenably fair. Should Air France force me into such a deal I would take it. Someone mentioned function and pay protection is a pay cut. I think this is not true: if you wouldn't cross over what would then be the difference? It is only true for those who are not yet in a command position, the rest effectively have no pay effects should they be frozen in their captain seat with belonging pay untill they catch up on the seniority. Personally I think joining in 2002/3 would have been a nicer option. The best possible and thinkable result BALPA is going to get is an entry right below those people who crossed over in 2002/3. This will cause a riot within VNV tough...
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Hi Ennie, in answer to your question what is worse than previous deal;
1. Have to go through full KLM selection procedure for acceptance (psyco tests, interview sim rides etc) instead of just a file check.
2. No seat protection for 3 years, demoted straight away in line with new (bottom) seniority.
3. If unsuccessful in selection you are still placed on the bottom of the list , demoted and restricted to KLC operations.
4. No assistance with 30% rule tax and seems unlikely that we will be get this due to changes in the tax system.
1. Have to go through full KLM selection procedure for acceptance (psyco tests, interview sim rides etc) instead of just a file check.
2. No seat protection for 3 years, demoted straight away in line with new (bottom) seniority.
3. If unsuccessful in selection you are still placed on the bottom of the list , demoted and restricted to KLC operations.
4. No assistance with 30% rule tax and seems unlikely that we will be get this due to changes in the tax system.
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Hi Ennie, in answer to your question what is worse than previous deal;
1. Have to go through full KLM selection procedure for acceptance (psyco tests, interview sim rides etc) instead of just a file check.
2. No seat protection for 3 years, demoted straight away in line with new (bottom) seniority.
3. If unsuccessful in selection you are still placed on the bottom of the list , demoted and restricted to KLC operations.
4. No assistance with 30% rule tax and seems unlikely that we will be get this due to changes in the tax system
1. Have to go through full KLM selection procedure for acceptance (psyco tests, interview sim rides etc) instead of just a file check.
2. No seat protection for 3 years, demoted straight away in line with new (bottom) seniority.
3. If unsuccessful in selection you are still placed on the bottom of the list , demoted and restricted to KLC operations.
4. No assistance with 30% rule tax and seems unlikely that we will be get this due to changes in the tax system
............that is indeed worse than the previous deal. Hope it improves for you guys and gals.Maybe if KLM offered the VNV passover pay to eligible mailine seniority list members for the number of UK Captains requiring seat freezes, a practical (albeit economically costly) solution can be found to avoid demotions, etc.
Good luck with the negotiations
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I feel for you guys, as it is unfair that the deal is alot worse that 2003. It is crazy that they expect you guys to go through selection tests, surely a simple file check as before would be sufficient, it was good enough in 2003.
What i am wondering is what happens to all those uk pilots who are over 56 do they retire the day they sign the KLM contract.
The deal i thought would have been fair is as follows:
1) Go to the bottom of the seniority list
2) Seat frozen with no more new command courses (after all cityhopper could and would benefit from a stable work force in the left seat ,with all this new recruitment and guys leaving to mainline).
3) Pay freeze (increasing with inflation) until your KLM pay overtakes.
4) Your UK pension frozen and closed and you join the KLM pension fund.
That is a better deal than 2003 and from what i can see is a fair one.
After all what happens to the guys who moved over in 2003 do they get the better deal aswell regarding pay (i think not)? also there is no way you guys are entitled to jump the seniority list those of you who think they deserve it (not many of you mind) get REAL it is simply not gonna happen (yes i know its selfish).
Secondly if you sign the KLM contract i cant see you guys keeping the uk basing after all that would be descrimination to the rest of KLM as a fair few of us live all over the world we would all want free tickets and travel within our FTL roster to start our rostered week from AMS. After all KLM is AMS
If you guys can get the above deal then go for it, its what is fair and i believe you should be entitled to it im sure BALPA can acheive this goal for you guys.
The best of luck....
What i am wondering is what happens to all those uk pilots who are over 56 do they retire the day they sign the KLM contract.
The deal i thought would have been fair is as follows:
1) Go to the bottom of the seniority list
2) Seat frozen with no more new command courses (after all cityhopper could and would benefit from a stable work force in the left seat ,with all this new recruitment and guys leaving to mainline).
3) Pay freeze (increasing with inflation) until your KLM pay overtakes.
4) Your UK pension frozen and closed and you join the KLM pension fund.
That is a better deal than 2003 and from what i can see is a fair one.
After all what happens to the guys who moved over in 2003 do they get the better deal aswell regarding pay (i think not)? also there is no way you guys are entitled to jump the seniority list those of you who think they deserve it (not many of you mind) get REAL it is simply not gonna happen (yes i know its selfish).
Secondly if you sign the KLM contract i cant see you guys keeping the uk basing after all that would be descrimination to the rest of KLM as a fair few of us live all over the world we would all want free tickets and travel within our FTL roster to start our rostered week from AMS. After all KLM is AMS
If you guys can get the above deal then go for it, its what is fair and i believe you should be entitled to it im sure BALPA can acheive this goal for you guys.
The best of luck....
Last edited by KLMer; 5th May 2006 at 03:44.
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Well, I am less sure it will get much better than this.
Regarding the full application procedure, it could be demanded by external factors like insurances, pension fund, etc.
Regarding the seniority KLM will have to talk with VNV. This would add another item to the long list of KLM wishes/things to be 'solved' with the VNV.
I indeed doubt that the tax dept will agree on the 30% tax, because the change of contract is on your own request. Also this would add another item to the long list of KLM wishes/things to be 'solved' but now ofcourse with the tax dept.
All guess-work ofcourse and I hope things will be better.
Regarding the full application procedure, it could be demanded by external factors like insurances, pension fund, etc.
Regarding the seniority KLM will have to talk with VNV. This would add another item to the long list of KLM wishes/things to be 'solved' with the VNV.
I indeed doubt that the tax dept will agree on the 30% tax, because the change of contract is on your own request. Also this would add another item to the long list of KLM wishes/things to be 'solved' but now ofcourse with the tax dept.
All guess-work ofcourse and I hope things will be better.
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Originally Posted by Ennie
What is worse about the deal just offered?
I'm very curious.
I'm very curious.
KLMer: Thank you for your words of support. I have to say that the vast majority of KLMers we meet in the bemannings centrum are sympathetic to our situation. We know we are not going to be starting A330 or even B737 courses anytime soon (actually, probably never, bearing in mind the average ages of our KLCuk skippers) and we also know that a KLM contract means AMS basing. But we will have a reasonable expectation that we will be able to reach retirement age without the management buggering the UK basing/pension/CLA/pay/staff travel/etc around again and again.
Samen kunnen wij een succesvol team maken.
Tot so.