Pilot Strike at KLM?
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Goede Dag Lluke
Some facts to put the situation in context:
The UK pilots are employed by KLCuk. They are subcontracted to work for KLM Cityhopper bv. KLM Cityhopper bv does not employ pilots itself; they also subcontract pilots in from KLM RDA.
The UK pilots currently have filed a grievance against KLM Cityhopper bv on the basis that they are being discriminated against compared to the KLM RDA pilots they currently share cockpits with. The KLM RDA contract pilots have the right to leave Cityhopper and take KLM RDA positions. The UK pilots do not.
Discrimination is a criminal offence in The Netherlands and the discrimination can be halted by either giving the UK pilots the same rights as their NL cockpit colleagues or by ensuring that the NL pilots have the same rights as their UK colleagues. Which would you prefer ?
By the way the VNV do have an infuence on the UK contract because they made the Duin and Kruidberg Accoord which, amongst other things, requires that no more pilots be recruited into KLCuk and that pilots will leave KLCuk at a given rate. The effect of no recruitment is to completely destroy the seniority concept (in KLCuk) because for seniority to work as intended, there must be a flow of pilots.
By ensuring that there are no more UK pilots recruited it also commits KLCuk to having a finite life. There are approximately 140 UK pilots now - what will the number have to drop to before the company is closed down ? I'd bet my pension (hahaha) that it wont still exist when only 1 pilot remains. What is the magic number ? I don't want to wait until it's too late before I find out.
By agreeing to the VNV demands, KLCuk and KLM Cityhopper bv are again discriminating against the UK pilots.
I know that when KLM have bought companies in the past (Netherlines, KLM ERA Helicopters) the integration of seniority lists has been painful but solutions have been found. The KLCuk pilots want a solution to the problem that KLM RDA, KLM Cityhopper bv and the VNV have given them. Not unreasonable I think.
Tot so
Some facts to put the situation in context:
The UK pilots are employed by KLCuk. They are subcontracted to work for KLM Cityhopper bv. KLM Cityhopper bv does not employ pilots itself; they also subcontract pilots in from KLM RDA.
The UK pilots currently have filed a grievance against KLM Cityhopper bv on the basis that they are being discriminated against compared to the KLM RDA pilots they currently share cockpits with. The KLM RDA contract pilots have the right to leave Cityhopper and take KLM RDA positions. The UK pilots do not.
Discrimination is a criminal offence in The Netherlands and the discrimination can be halted by either giving the UK pilots the same rights as their NL cockpit colleagues or by ensuring that the NL pilots have the same rights as their UK colleagues. Which would you prefer ?
By the way the VNV do have an infuence on the UK contract because they made the Duin and Kruidberg Accoord which, amongst other things, requires that no more pilots be recruited into KLCuk and that pilots will leave KLCuk at a given rate. The effect of no recruitment is to completely destroy the seniority concept (in KLCuk) because for seniority to work as intended, there must be a flow of pilots.
By ensuring that there are no more UK pilots recruited it also commits KLCuk to having a finite life. There are approximately 140 UK pilots now - what will the number have to drop to before the company is closed down ? I'd bet my pension (hahaha) that it wont still exist when only 1 pilot remains. What is the magic number ? I don't want to wait until it's too late before I find out.
By agreeing to the VNV demands, KLCuk and KLM Cityhopper bv are again discriminating against the UK pilots.
I know that when KLM have bought companies in the past (Netherlines, KLM ERA Helicopters) the integration of seniority lists has been painful but solutions have been found. The KLCuk pilots want a solution to the problem that KLM RDA, KLM Cityhopper bv and the VNV have given them. Not unreasonable I think.
Tot so
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I also think a new/better solution must be found. Your contract is wrong and takes you to a dead end road.
I also think you'd have been better off with the mainline contract.
"Some facts to put the situation in context:
The UK pilots are employed by KLCuk. They are subcontracted to work for KLM Cityhopper bv. KLM Cityhopper bv does not employ pilots itself; they also subcontract pilots in from KLM RDA."
You should also add that KLC does not have their own flights, but is operating KLM flights, which KLM pays for.
KLM has indicated to the VNV they wanted to get rid of the UK bases and the UK contract. To facilitate KLM and those who rejected the mainline contract, the VNV gave permission to UK contracters to do not only flights from the hubs but also flights from AMS. I always thought this was a temporary solution to allow people to look for much better jobs with Ryanair, etc..
The UK seniority list applied to UK aircraft and UK contracters. Wake up they are both gone cq disappearing.
The VNV cannot simply give permission to put you high on the KLM seniority list, It will have to ask its members if they mind that somebody is put ahead of them. In the time of the Flight Engineers and the Heli pilots a great deal was given. But if you ask those same members now, you'll have to come with a very good story. You'll now even have to ask your former UK colleagues who did join mainline if they mind to be bypassed. (why would they do that?) they have already heaps of people behind them.
However I do realize all the shattered dreams (what happened to flying B767's out of UK hubs to the US, etc..). I also think your situation totally sucks, without you being guilty for that (although it was a bit dim not to take the mainline contract). So we are all together in it (you a bit more then we) and we all will have to look for a way out.
See you around..
I also think you'd have been better off with the mainline contract.
"Some facts to put the situation in context:
The UK pilots are employed by KLCuk. They are subcontracted to work for KLM Cityhopper bv. KLM Cityhopper bv does not employ pilots itself; they also subcontract pilots in from KLM RDA."
You should also add that KLC does not have their own flights, but is operating KLM flights, which KLM pays for.
KLM has indicated to the VNV they wanted to get rid of the UK bases and the UK contract. To facilitate KLM and those who rejected the mainline contract, the VNV gave permission to UK contracters to do not only flights from the hubs but also flights from AMS. I always thought this was a temporary solution to allow people to look for much better jobs with Ryanair, etc..
The UK seniority list applied to UK aircraft and UK contracters. Wake up they are both gone cq disappearing.
The VNV cannot simply give permission to put you high on the KLM seniority list, It will have to ask its members if they mind that somebody is put ahead of them. In the time of the Flight Engineers and the Heli pilots a great deal was given. But if you ask those same members now, you'll have to come with a very good story. You'll now even have to ask your former UK colleagues who did join mainline if they mind to be bypassed. (why would they do that?) they have already heaps of people behind them.
However I do realize all the shattered dreams (what happened to flying B767's out of UK hubs to the US, etc..). I also think your situation totally sucks, without you being guilty for that (although it was a bit dim not to take the mainline contract). So we are all together in it (you a bit more then we) and we all will have to look for a way out.
See you around..
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We need to return to basics. PLEASE read this carefully. The guys and girls looking for the mainline contracts are NOT looking to jump the seniority list,dilute the t&c of the pilots already on this list. We are looking for a long term future with the company Where once all this is over we are able to look our dutch colleages in the eye and saywe have improved all our t&c. This will be achieved by negociating with the company from a position of strength. This will require the VNV and Balpa working together as a joint force,which if they had done in the first instance we would not be on prunediscussing it now. 
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Sorry I do not often contribute to pprune but always read but I must add my bit.
KLM cityhopper uk came from the TUPE transfer of the aircraft with the pilots from KLM uk. It was required by law to bring the pilots with the aircraft into KLM cityhopper.
KLM cityhopper uk arrived with approx 20 aircraft to bolster the cityhopper fleet, and the pilots came to.
Some of these pilots wanted to go to Buzz some did not and that was understood by all parties.
The offer to join Klm was only palatable to a very junior first officer, start at the bottom thats it with a few short term incentives.
Many experineced ,,, 15 - 20 year Captains could not justify transfering to the bottom of a seniority list, a cut in pay after two years and if they were lucky and would be demoted from the left seat and even aircraft type after two years. It just was not an option.
The vnv seem to have adopted the attitude that these were new aircraft for KLM pilots, They were not ,unless some of our guys left and then vacancies would occur.
The vnv have met with the cc many times over the years and on a 1 2 1 basis are freindly enough. However their policy is strictly no negotiating with balpa and they will not ask the company for any changes. In their eyes the company have to ask them and their price for agreement will be high,,, too high for a practicable discussion. This is where the protective VNV starts from, blocking any sensible talks to solve the issues.
Many of the guys flying in the uk just want some security, justifiabley so , to continue flying the aircraft that they legally came with.
Why is it too mush to ask to allow the uk pilots to be placed on the dutch seniority list and stay in their current rank/ fleet / seat until they have senioirty to bid for another fleet.
Is it unreasonable ? the alternative , is they stay and continue flying intheir current fleet / seat /type for ever, protected by law.
What is wrong with that? the policies and disrimination we have endured over the last two years regarding pay, pensions, promotion, training etc forcing many to leave. Is this really acceptable in a modern professional society.
It is some of the VNV's attitude of "but you will affect my sons future" that i cannot fathom, and it is unacceptable for a group of people to behave that way.
We dont want much, just to be join the klm list . If that is so unacceptable to KLM then good luck with Air france , cause they will not stand for it and have a larger stick to use to make the rest fall into place.
Personally I have dealt with many of the people from vnv to managment the intrasigence they show, the unwillingness to address the issues is why we are in this posaition.
There are many good people who I have worked with on the NL side who are also amazed that this does not get addressed.
I would ask all KLM pilots to support us in securing our future in a sensible way, and I am confident that most of them who are aware of our situation will.
Solving this will put you all in a stronger position with the Air France Take over,
Ignore this and I hope that Air France are watching (I know they are aware) and do not ask for sympathy
Do to others as you would expect to be done to you.
KLM cityhopper uk came from the TUPE transfer of the aircraft with the pilots from KLM uk. It was required by law to bring the pilots with the aircraft into KLM cityhopper.
KLM cityhopper uk arrived with approx 20 aircraft to bolster the cityhopper fleet, and the pilots came to.
Some of these pilots wanted to go to Buzz some did not and that was understood by all parties.
The offer to join Klm was only palatable to a very junior first officer, start at the bottom thats it with a few short term incentives.
Many experineced ,,, 15 - 20 year Captains could not justify transfering to the bottom of a seniority list, a cut in pay after two years and if they were lucky and would be demoted from the left seat and even aircraft type after two years. It just was not an option.
The vnv seem to have adopted the attitude that these were new aircraft for KLM pilots, They were not ,unless some of our guys left and then vacancies would occur.
The vnv have met with the cc many times over the years and on a 1 2 1 basis are freindly enough. However their policy is strictly no negotiating with balpa and they will not ask the company for any changes. In their eyes the company have to ask them and their price for agreement will be high,,, too high for a practicable discussion. This is where the protective VNV starts from, blocking any sensible talks to solve the issues.
Many of the guys flying in the uk just want some security, justifiabley so , to continue flying the aircraft that they legally came with.
Why is it too mush to ask to allow the uk pilots to be placed on the dutch seniority list and stay in their current rank/ fleet / seat until they have senioirty to bid for another fleet.
Is it unreasonable ? the alternative , is they stay and continue flying intheir current fleet / seat /type for ever, protected by law.
What is wrong with that? the policies and disrimination we have endured over the last two years regarding pay, pensions, promotion, training etc forcing many to leave. Is this really acceptable in a modern professional society.
It is some of the VNV's attitude of "but you will affect my sons future" that i cannot fathom, and it is unacceptable for a group of people to behave that way.
We dont want much, just to be join the klm list . If that is so unacceptable to KLM then good luck with Air france , cause they will not stand for it and have a larger stick to use to make the rest fall into place.
Personally I have dealt with many of the people from vnv to managment the intrasigence they show, the unwillingness to address the issues is why we are in this posaition.
There are many good people who I have worked with on the NL side who are also amazed that this does not get addressed.
I would ask all KLM pilots to support us in securing our future in a sensible way, and I am confident that most of them who are aware of our situation will.
Solving this will put you all in a stronger position with the Air France Take over,
Ignore this and I hope that Air France are watching (I know they are aware) and do not ask for sympathy
Do to others as you would expect to be done to you.
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This discussion is none of my business, so I apologise for sticking my nose in, but working for an Anglo-Dutch firm (but with the Dutch in the driving seat) a lot of this sounds horribly familiar, hence my interest.
Can I ask a couple of questions to aid my own understanding?
It sounds that from the VNV concerns the KLMuk pilots are paid less for doing a comparable job - hence the VNV are worried that the concept could be used to provide cheaper pilot labour to operate KLM flights. Is this correct? If it is how about this for a solution:
KLMuk pilots get a contract the same as the other Cityhopper pilots and are given a place on the KLM seniority list comensurate with their pay - VNV wins as the KLM pilots are displaced less than if it was done on joining date; KLMuk pilots win because they get a foot in the door on the main list. They could also offer a 2-3 year fleet freeze on joining the main list (ie the benefits of seniority don't kick in straight away. To join the seniority list a fairly basic Dutch test has to be taken - I would guess that most UK pilots will have picked up enough Dutch to pass this already, but it would show willing.
Whether KLM would go for this I have no idea, but it would appear to give them the opportunity to remove the extra overhead of a UK subsidiary required to comply with TUPE legislation - all depends on the difference in pilot costs between UK and NL pilots. As long as any extra salary costs were covered by losing this overhead then they shouldn't object.
Is the place you live an issue? If you are not already officially NL resident then they may want you to move, but I would think that could be done without actually changing what you do now (ie digs in Amsterdam for stopovers/standbys, but live in UK apart from that). Presumably the concept of commuting pilots is not unusual a la BA.
Presumably this will all come to a head in the not too distant future anyway, as those Fokkers aren't getting any younger.
Another thought - would all the KLMuk pilots joining the VNV make any difference/ Although you would be in a minority, if you were able to be a vocal minority then you would be hard to ignore!
Apologies again for intruding.....
Can I ask a couple of questions to aid my own understanding?
It sounds that from the VNV concerns the KLMuk pilots are paid less for doing a comparable job - hence the VNV are worried that the concept could be used to provide cheaper pilot labour to operate KLM flights. Is this correct? If it is how about this for a solution:
KLMuk pilots get a contract the same as the other Cityhopper pilots and are given a place on the KLM seniority list comensurate with their pay - VNV wins as the KLM pilots are displaced less than if it was done on joining date; KLMuk pilots win because they get a foot in the door on the main list. They could also offer a 2-3 year fleet freeze on joining the main list (ie the benefits of seniority don't kick in straight away. To join the seniority list a fairly basic Dutch test has to be taken - I would guess that most UK pilots will have picked up enough Dutch to pass this already, but it would show willing.
Whether KLM would go for this I have no idea, but it would appear to give them the opportunity to remove the extra overhead of a UK subsidiary required to comply with TUPE legislation - all depends on the difference in pilot costs between UK and NL pilots. As long as any extra salary costs were covered by losing this overhead then they shouldn't object.
Is the place you live an issue? If you are not already officially NL resident then they may want you to move, but I would think that could be done without actually changing what you do now (ie digs in Amsterdam for stopovers/standbys, but live in UK apart from that). Presumably the concept of commuting pilots is not unusual a la BA.
Presumably this will all come to a head in the not too distant future anyway, as those Fokkers aren't getting any younger.
Another thought - would all the KLMuk pilots joining the VNV make any difference/ Although you would be in a minority, if you were able to be a vocal minority then you would be hard to ignore!
Apologies again for intruding.....
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First of all, you can only join the VNV if you are employed by one of its recognized airlines (ie. KLM, Martinair, HV, denimair, schreiner)
Indeed it is stupid that current KLC UK people are not eligable for new KLM jobs.
Balpa should bring that up, and if you ask the VNV kindly, they might even ask KLM for the same thing. (although VNV usually does not want anything to do with hiring policies, as it does not yet include any members)
From a company point of view, it doesn't solve any of its pilot shortages, since the same people will be employed.
So maybe that is why they are blocking it.
Good luck to all, and if you need dutch lessons send me an E-mail!
Spuis
Indeed it is stupid that current KLC UK people are not eligable for new KLM jobs.
Balpa should bring that up, and if you ask the VNV kindly, they might even ask KLM for the same thing. (although VNV usually does not want anything to do with hiring policies, as it does not yet include any members)
From a company point of view, it doesn't solve any of its pilot shortages, since the same people will be employed.
So maybe that is why they are blocking it.
Good luck to all, and if you need dutch lessons send me an E-mail!
Spuis
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LLuke and spuis you are either misinformed or have missed the points being raised entirely.
KLMuk pilots were TUPE transferred from KLMuk to a new company called KLCuk. They brought with them an entire airline, aircraft and routes along with a management structure that has been devastated over the last few years through KLM/KLC/VNV behaviour towards its UK employees.
Those routes are not KLM routes but KLCuk routes that KLCuk now allow KLM to fly in return KLCuk are allowed to fly some of the routes from AMS further into Europe. In other words both KLCuk and KLM crews are being harmonised, 2 airlines into 1 but only harmonised as much as the VNV and KLM want.
So tell me why KLCuk pilots should not be allowed onto the KLM pilot’s seniority list or why they should be treated as ‘contract pilots’ or ‘custodians of Dutch jobs’? They have their own jobs and have just as much right as any KLM pilot to be there. They should not have to take up new KLM jobs! They brought them with them and gradually the VNV have pinched them as the KLC pilots have left. (VNV made sure of this as they made KLM agree to no new hiring into KLCuk and a guaranteed reduction in jobs within KLCuk each year – see D & K agreement mentioned above).
Total discrimination which ever way you look at it. Several people on here have diverted the complaints from the VNV to KLM well the truth is that the VNV have KLM in their pockets and therefore the VNV have dictated the terms.
It is unreasonable to expect the dedicated UK workforce to accept this position. Which is why I guess Balpa have eventually said enough is enough lets get this sorted. Just remember VNV members there is another takeover (sorry merger) looming and you are the small boys…
KLMuk pilots were TUPE transferred from KLMuk to a new company called KLCuk. They brought with them an entire airline, aircraft and routes along with a management structure that has been devastated over the last few years through KLM/KLC/VNV behaviour towards its UK employees.
Those routes are not KLM routes but KLCuk routes that KLCuk now allow KLM to fly in return KLCuk are allowed to fly some of the routes from AMS further into Europe. In other words both KLCuk and KLM crews are being harmonised, 2 airlines into 1 but only harmonised as much as the VNV and KLM want.
So tell me why KLCuk pilots should not be allowed onto the KLM pilot’s seniority list or why they should be treated as ‘contract pilots’ or ‘custodians of Dutch jobs’? They have their own jobs and have just as much right as any KLM pilot to be there. They should not have to take up new KLM jobs! They brought them with them and gradually the VNV have pinched them as the KLC pilots have left. (VNV made sure of this as they made KLM agree to no new hiring into KLCuk and a guaranteed reduction in jobs within KLCuk each year – see D & K agreement mentioned above).
Total discrimination which ever way you look at it. Several people on here have diverted the complaints from the VNV to KLM well the truth is that the VNV have KLM in their pockets and therefore the VNV have dictated the terms.
It is unreasonable to expect the dedicated UK workforce to accept this position. Which is why I guess Balpa have eventually said enough is enough lets get this sorted. Just remember VNV members there is another takeover (sorry merger) looming and you are the small boys…
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A small correction on Autofeathers previous post: I am not misinformed, but simply unimformed regarding your contracts.
Guess it is impossible to disagree that KLM UK has been destroyed, but definately not by the union (VNV). You chose a contract that now requires KLM pilots to give up certain things from their CLA, which they can't be forced to do and as far as I am concerned shouldn't.
I think the union could have said no to UK contracts flying out of AMS. They didn' t so you can still live where you live now and be usefull to the company.
You were offered a contract with mainline which you rejected. Instead you chose a contract with a UK based company that (now) has no (or few?) aircraft, no routes and could be terminated tomorrow.. Now you regret your choice and want to change it.
I believe you should get that opportunity, ...but only to join mainline. Everybody who has been screwed by VP. has my deepest sympathies :-/ and definately deserves help and free therapy.
As far as your call for sharing the seniority list;
I think (but I could be wrong ofcourse) that because of your contract you are a contract pilot. KLM is asking KLC to do flights. KLC hiring pilots from KLM and (with friendly permission from the VNV) from KLM-UK.
Imagine KLM asks KLC to take care of a B747 flying daily AMS-JFK. KLC decides to hire PARC pilots. Should they also be on the list? If KLM-UK is allowed, PARC should be too ofcourse. And Transavia, and the KLS students and what about the poor people from Sabena???
If I apply for a job with our beloved mother Air France, I know I wont be on the list with BA. Even if Air-France would be 100% owner of BA. Even if BA would be renamed Air France London.
You choose for the UK contract, which deals with the KLM-UK list.
I am confident that BALPA will be able to negotiate a better deal. I hope it will be a mainline contract...and hope this for both of us, but especially for you.
Guess it is impossible to disagree that KLM UK has been destroyed, but definately not by the union (VNV). You chose a contract that now requires KLM pilots to give up certain things from their CLA, which they can't be forced to do and as far as I am concerned shouldn't.
I think the union could have said no to UK contracts flying out of AMS. They didn' t so you can still live where you live now and be usefull to the company.
You were offered a contract with mainline which you rejected. Instead you chose a contract with a UK based company that (now) has no (or few?) aircraft, no routes and could be terminated tomorrow.. Now you regret your choice and want to change it.
I believe you should get that opportunity, ...but only to join mainline. Everybody who has been screwed by VP. has my deepest sympathies :-/ and definately deserves help and free therapy.
As far as your call for sharing the seniority list;
I think (but I could be wrong ofcourse) that because of your contract you are a contract pilot. KLM is asking KLC to do flights. KLC hiring pilots from KLM and (with friendly permission from the VNV) from KLM-UK.
Imagine KLM asks KLC to take care of a B747 flying daily AMS-JFK. KLC decides to hire PARC pilots. Should they also be on the list? If KLM-UK is allowed, PARC should be too ofcourse. And Transavia, and the KLS students and what about the poor people from Sabena???
If I apply for a job with our beloved mother Air France, I know I wont be on the list with BA. Even if Air-France would be 100% owner of BA. Even if BA would be renamed Air France London.
You choose for the UK contract, which deals with the KLM-UK list.
I am confident that BALPA will be able to negotiate a better deal. I hope it will be a mainline contract...and hope this for both of us, but especially for you.
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ok guys. bickering amongst each other achieves nothing.
LLUKE, unfortunately on the UK side there is a great deal of anger towards the VNV as they have within the D and K accord given the company very little room for to move when it comes to the UK pilots. I agree with KLMer that they do a very god job for their members however that should never be to the detriment of others.
from a friend (who is a VNV member) for all to see is a translated version of that agreement.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Combining KLM uk and KLC
The following applies to pilots who on 1-11-2002 change over from KLM uk to KLC uk ltd:
On 1-1-2003 at the latest, KLC uk ltd pilots who on that date are less than 46 years of age must indicate whether they opt for a career with KLM.
The following applies to pilots who opt for a career with KLM and meet the selection criteria set by KLM in this connection:
Commencement of service and placing on the KLM seniority list (at the bottom, in the same order as KLC uk ltd seniority) as of 1-1-2003;
On 1-7-2005 at the latest, captains will hold a position conforming to their place on KLM’s seniority list. If necessary, they will in the period from 1-7-2004 to 1-7-2005 be retrained to first officer on the same type of aircraft.
The commitment time starts on 1-1-2003. After any retraining to first officer on the same type, this function will be regarded as being performed as from 1-1-2003 for the determination of commitment time.
So long as a Fokker 70/100 captain performs this function and on the basis of seniority has not yet become eligible, he will, notwithstanding the salary rules, receive a function payment on the basis of seniority.
The following applies to pilots with an employment relationship with KLC uk ltd:;Allocation of KLC uk ltd/KLC regional functions to KLC uk ltd pilots in the ratio of 1:2 relative to KLC/KLM pilots;
As of 1-11-2002 at the latest, no more pilots will be taken on by KLC uk ltd.
Over a period of five years, the number of KLC uk ltd pilots will decrease cumulatively year by year as follows:
Scrutiny date Decrease in FTEs (cumulative)
1-11-2003
28
1-11-2004
56
1-11-2005
84
1-11-2006
112
1-11-2007
140
The maximum number of Fokker 70/100 captain positions at KLC uk ltd will not be more than 76, on the understanding that this number will be corrected for growth and shrinkage in the number of Fokker 70/100 captain positions in the ratio of 1:2 relative to KLC/KLM pilots. All this with respect to the situation as of 1-11-2002.
------------------------------------------------------
now ok the BUZZ option has now gone so people are now trapped in KLCuk with the VNV having the power of the above agreement.
I agree LLUKE we need to work together to secure a future for all, the KLCuk pilots have dreams, familys, lives just the same as a KLM pilot does, all we want is to have our future secured and not live under the cloud of discrimination that we are now. As I have said before in previous postings I personally dont blame any KLM contracted pilot for this situation most that i have flown with or met are decent people who would not wish harm on anyone. But please understand this discrimination is being done in your name and it has to stop.
The best way foward here is for you to ask your union (VNV) to support fellow pilots in their plight and stop this push out the door and no future policy, this is so dangerous for us all because if we dont sort this soon and work as one Air France unions could potentially decimate in the same way to all of us.
quote:"Imagine KLM asks KLC to take care of a B747 flying daily AMS-JFK. KLC decides to hire PARC pilots. Should they also be on the list? If KLM-UK is allowed, PARC should be too ofcourse. And Transavia, and the KLS students and what about the poor people from Sabena??? "
This really shows a complete mis understanding of the situation, KLM has taken Airuk assets, aircraft, routes etc and merged them into KLM to the benefit of KLM pilots (creation of more jobs) to the direct cost of the UK pilot!! PARC would not bring aircraft to the AOC, and to quote a manager in KLM if we were to allow KLCuk pilots onto the list this would dis-advantage KLS students!!!! do you really think if KLM closed down Transavia and moved their 737s to the KLM AOC and effectively forced all the transavia pilots out of a job the vnv would accept that??
Can i ask if you were offered in 2008 the option of bottom of the air france list. move to paris , cut in pay , demoted in line with Air France seniority list, subject of course to you satisfying an Air France file check for suitability, being under the age of 46, and if you did not then KLM pilots could stay in amsterdam but must leave the company say 300 pilots per year and no more recruitment to KLM, and by the way you have a week to make up your mind and move, would you accept that? of course not. well that was what was expected of us.
please please put pressure on your union to unite with us for a common future, together we will be strong, divided we will all fall.
LLUKE, unfortunately on the UK side there is a great deal of anger towards the VNV as they have within the D and K accord given the company very little room for to move when it comes to the UK pilots. I agree with KLMer that they do a very god job for their members however that should never be to the detriment of others.
from a friend (who is a VNV member) for all to see is a translated version of that agreement.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Combining KLM uk and KLC
The following applies to pilots who on 1-11-2002 change over from KLM uk to KLC uk ltd:
On 1-1-2003 at the latest, KLC uk ltd pilots who on that date are less than 46 years of age must indicate whether they opt for a career with KLM.
The following applies to pilots who opt for a career with KLM and meet the selection criteria set by KLM in this connection:
Commencement of service and placing on the KLM seniority list (at the bottom, in the same order as KLC uk ltd seniority) as of 1-1-2003;
On 1-7-2005 at the latest, captains will hold a position conforming to their place on KLM’s seniority list. If necessary, they will in the period from 1-7-2004 to 1-7-2005 be retrained to first officer on the same type of aircraft.
The commitment time starts on 1-1-2003. After any retraining to first officer on the same type, this function will be regarded as being performed as from 1-1-2003 for the determination of commitment time.
So long as a Fokker 70/100 captain performs this function and on the basis of seniority has not yet become eligible, he will, notwithstanding the salary rules, receive a function payment on the basis of seniority.
The following applies to pilots with an employment relationship with KLC uk ltd:;Allocation of KLC uk ltd/KLC regional functions to KLC uk ltd pilots in the ratio of 1:2 relative to KLC/KLM pilots;
As of 1-11-2002 at the latest, no more pilots will be taken on by KLC uk ltd.
Over a period of five years, the number of KLC uk ltd pilots will decrease cumulatively year by year as follows:
Scrutiny date Decrease in FTEs (cumulative)
1-11-2003
28
1-11-2004
56
1-11-2005
84
1-11-2006
112
1-11-2007
140
The maximum number of Fokker 70/100 captain positions at KLC uk ltd will not be more than 76, on the understanding that this number will be corrected for growth and shrinkage in the number of Fokker 70/100 captain positions in the ratio of 1:2 relative to KLC/KLM pilots. All this with respect to the situation as of 1-11-2002.
------------------------------------------------------
now ok the BUZZ option has now gone so people are now trapped in KLCuk with the VNV having the power of the above agreement.
I agree LLUKE we need to work together to secure a future for all, the KLCuk pilots have dreams, familys, lives just the same as a KLM pilot does, all we want is to have our future secured and not live under the cloud of discrimination that we are now. As I have said before in previous postings I personally dont blame any KLM contracted pilot for this situation most that i have flown with or met are decent people who would not wish harm on anyone. But please understand this discrimination is being done in your name and it has to stop.
The best way foward here is for you to ask your union (VNV) to support fellow pilots in their plight and stop this push out the door and no future policy, this is so dangerous for us all because if we dont sort this soon and work as one Air France unions could potentially decimate in the same way to all of us.
quote:"Imagine KLM asks KLC to take care of a B747 flying daily AMS-JFK. KLC decides to hire PARC pilots. Should they also be on the list? If KLM-UK is allowed, PARC should be too ofcourse. And Transavia, and the KLS students and what about the poor people from Sabena??? "
This really shows a complete mis understanding of the situation, KLM has taken Airuk assets, aircraft, routes etc and merged them into KLM to the benefit of KLM pilots (creation of more jobs) to the direct cost of the UK pilot!! PARC would not bring aircraft to the AOC, and to quote a manager in KLM if we were to allow KLCuk pilots onto the list this would dis-advantage KLS students!!!! do you really think if KLM closed down Transavia and moved their 737s to the KLM AOC and effectively forced all the transavia pilots out of a job the vnv would accept that??
Can i ask if you were offered in 2008 the option of bottom of the air france list. move to paris , cut in pay , demoted in line with Air France seniority list, subject of course to you satisfying an Air France file check for suitability, being under the age of 46, and if you did not then KLM pilots could stay in amsterdam but must leave the company say 300 pilots per year and no more recruitment to KLM, and by the way you have a week to make up your mind and move, would you accept that? of course not. well that was what was expected of us.
please please put pressure on your union to unite with us for a common future, together we will be strong, divided we will all fall.
Last edited by bluepilot; 18th Mar 2006 at 00:44.
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And this is how I always interpreted D&K:
It is what KLM decided. KLM wanted to quit with the hubs. KLM wants you flying ex AMS to avoid people loosing their job and says to VNV don't worry it is only temporary. VNV says OK, show me the plan on paper with numbers (blue eyes won't do.). Plan accepted and expained in D&K.
What I would do with BALPA:
-Summarize your current situation. What contract, with who, what country is your company located (NL/UK) etc... This should help understanding your legal rights which are obviously rock bottom in any negotiation.
-Make a time line of all events that happened. For you ofcourse very obvious, but not for the rest of the world. A.o. Buzz becoming Ryanair, should make people see the misfortune that happened to you.
-Have a chat with VNV.
[Tricky, even very tricky, and only to be done well prepared:]
-Go to your current employer and explain you want to change contract. Current employer will certainly ask what's in it for me??? Good to think about that one in advance. Once your current employer says, OK lets go for new (mainline) contract, VNV arrives again on the horizon.
Regarding your example with Air France: This is definately not the way it should have been, rather embarrassing, and I hope this unjustice will be undone. I fully agree we should be united. The current setup sucks...
It is what KLM decided. KLM wanted to quit with the hubs. KLM wants you flying ex AMS to avoid people loosing their job and says to VNV don't worry it is only temporary. VNV says OK, show me the plan on paper with numbers (blue eyes won't do.). Plan accepted and expained in D&K.
What I would do with BALPA:
-Summarize your current situation. What contract, with who, what country is your company located (NL/UK) etc... This should help understanding your legal rights which are obviously rock bottom in any negotiation.
-Make a time line of all events that happened. For you ofcourse very obvious, but not for the rest of the world. A.o. Buzz becoming Ryanair, should make people see the misfortune that happened to you.
-Have a chat with VNV.
[Tricky, even very tricky, and only to be done well prepared:]
-Go to your current employer and explain you want to change contract. Current employer will certainly ask what's in it for me??? Good to think about that one in advance. Once your current employer says, OK lets go for new (mainline) contract, VNV arrives again on the horizon.
Regarding your example with Air France: This is definately not the way it should have been, rather embarrassing, and I hope this unjustice will be undone. I fully agree we should be united. The current setup sucks...
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LLUKE thank you for your support, i agree this really sucks! of course in using my example with air france I would not wish that on you and my collegues at all. Can I ask you to enlighten your collegues when you fly with them so that people are aware of this injustice so pressure can be put on the management from all sides? perhaps you could write a letter to your union asking them what kind of support they will be offering the uk pilots in their plight? it all helps.
I look foward to the day when we can unite an build a secure and prosperous future for us all.
Bluepilot.
I look foward to the day when we can unite an build a secure and prosperous future for us all.
Bluepilot.
Last edited by bluepilot; 18th Mar 2006 at 09:20.
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Autofeather said:
KLMuk pilots were TUPE transferred from KLMuk to a new company called KLCuk. They brought with them an entire airline, aircraft and routes along with a management structure that has been devastated over the last few years through KLM/KLC/VNV behaviour towards its UK employees.
KLMuk pilots were TUPE transferred from KLMuk to a new company called KLCuk. They brought with them an entire airline, aircraft and routes along with a management structure that has been devastated over the last few years through KLM/KLC/VNV behaviour towards its UK employees.
LLuke said:
KLM has indicated to the VNV they wanted to get rid of the UK bases and the UK contract. To facilitate KLM and those who rejected the mainline contract, the VNV gave permission to UK contracters to do not only flights from the hubs but also flights from AMS. I always thought this was a temporary solution to allow people to look for much better jobs with Ryanair, etc..
and
And this is how I always interpreted D&K:
It is what KLM decided. KLM wanted to quit with the hubs. KLM wants you flying ex AMS to avoid people loosing their job and says to VNV don't worry it is only temporary. VNV says OK, show me the plan on paper with numbers (blue eyes won't do.). Plan accepted and expained in D&K.
KLM has indicated to the VNV they wanted to get rid of the UK bases and the UK contract. To facilitate KLM and those who rejected the mainline contract, the VNV gave permission to UK contracters to do not only flights from the hubs but also flights from AMS. I always thought this was a temporary solution to allow people to look for much better jobs with Ryanair, etc..
and
And this is how I always interpreted D&K:
It is what KLM decided. KLM wanted to quit with the hubs. KLM wants you flying ex AMS to avoid people loosing their job and says to VNV don't worry it is only temporary. VNV says OK, show me the plan on paper with numbers (blue eyes won't do.). Plan accepted and expained in D&K.
VNV were told KLCuk was a temporary entity (presumably on the assumption that everybody who rejected mainline would eventually end up in Buzz, or leave).
Balpa fought tooth and nail to keep as much of the existing t&c's and were lured by KLM into thinking that the best way to do this was via a new company called KLCuk, and TUPE. It all now seems much ado about nothing, seeing as KLM intended KLCuk only as a temporary entity.
KLC Management felt confident enough about the existence and growth of Buzz, to commit into a written agreement with the VNV about UK pilot outflow. Turns out KLM were already plotting the sale of Buzz whilst all this was going on.
So, we now arrive at a point where it is demonstrably in everyones interest to confine KLCuk to bad history and put everyone on the KLM mainline list. KLM gets rid of the UK bases they claimed to want rid off. The VNV get rid of the "dangerous loophole" uk contracts, and the UK pilots get the security and parity they deserve.
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Originally Posted by Ray D'Avecta
..........not quite correct, I'm afraid. Pilots went to KLCuk, but aircraft and routes went to KLM.
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Originally Posted by autofeather
The aircraft (F100) are still on leases to KLMuk (Formerly Air UK) and not KLM.
But, the real problem is this:
The UK pilots want, (and deserve) to join the mainline list on better terms than the previous pilots who transferred. Better terms now, may affect pilots already on the mainline list. The VNV, and the dutch pilots will not agree to this without major concessions from KLM management. KLM management appear not to be willing to make any concessions to the VNV, and want the cheapest solution. So,..........deadlock!!!!
If BALPA and the VNV can agree to UK pilots joining the bottom of the list (maybe better if it is agreed now, but effective date of March 2007, by which time all UK pilots are forecast to be Captains) with a seat / function freeze until seniority permits upward bidding, no current mainline list pilots are disadvantaged, the uk pilots get mainline listing with no adverse future demotions or pay cuts, and KLC management get a highly skilled and motivated group of Captains who are stable for at least 5 years (and not constantly outflowing to KLM thereby causing manpower shortages in KLC, as is the current case). Everybody is happy.
That is all BALPA and VNV can do. The rest of the stuff like pensions, bases, etc is all down to KLM.
( One thing I would add is this - I personally do not think it is realistic to want both to be on the mainline list, and to be based in the UK. Something has to give. You can be BASED in amsterdam but live in the UK, as is currently the case...........covertly, of course
)
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Sorry Ray D'Avecta but you are completely wrong on this.
15 of the Fokker 100s and 6 of the Fokker F50s are leased / owned by KLM cityhopper uk ltd this is entirely for tax reasons and i believe those tax breaks end in 2008, if you wish to check for yourself you will find these details registered with companies house in the UK, KLM Royal Dutch Airlines provides guarantees to the lease companies on a "charge" to KLM cityhopper uk ltd.
So in fact 21 of the KLM cityhopper aircraft are technically still the resposibility of the UK company.
Also you will find that KLMuk still exists, it was not sold to Ryanair.... the AOC and the staff were transfered to a new company called Buzz Stansted Ltd then that company was sold to ryanair. KLMuk remains responsible for leasing of some aircraft and is wholly owned by KLM RDA
15 of the Fokker 100s and 6 of the Fokker F50s are leased / owned by KLM cityhopper uk ltd this is entirely for tax reasons and i believe those tax breaks end in 2008, if you wish to check for yourself you will find these details registered with companies house in the UK, KLM Royal Dutch Airlines provides guarantees to the lease companies on a "charge" to KLM cityhopper uk ltd.
So in fact 21 of the KLM cityhopper aircraft are technically still the resposibility of the UK company.
Also you will find that KLMuk still exists, it was not sold to Ryanair.... the AOC and the staff were transfered to a new company called Buzz Stansted Ltd then that company was sold to ryanair. KLMuk remains responsible for leasing of some aircraft and is wholly owned by KLM RDA
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Not that it matters a great deal to the main subject of the thread, but the pilots and the aircraft were divorced 3 years or so ago. Pilots went to KLCuk, and aircraft to KLM, via KLM UK HOLDINGS LTD.
KLM uk Ltd may still exist, but its only there to continue to mop up the fall out from the whole Buzz - Ryanair affair, such as being still responsible for the lease of the yellow 146's.
That was my understanding anyway. If I am wrong, then I stand corrected, and apologise.............
KLM uk Ltd may still exist, but its only there to continue to mop up the fall out from the whole Buzz - Ryanair affair, such as being still responsible for the lease of the yellow 146's.
That was my understanding anyway. If I am wrong, then I stand corrected, and apologise.............
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Originally Posted by Ray D'Avecta
Not that it matters a great deal to the main subject of the thread, but the pilots and the aircraft were divorced 3 years or so ago. Pilots went to KLCuk, and aircraft to KLM, via KLM UK HOLDINGS LTD.
As mentioned by the rather well informed blue pilot the leases for the aircraft are owned by KLM Cityhopper UK Ltd and full details of the charges/leases and gurantees from KLM can be found on public records at companies house.
I have available full details should you wish to PM me.
Therefore the aircraft are operated by KLM Cityhopper uk Ltd, the same company that the KLCuk pilots work for, indeed if you were to examine the details of those same leases you will see that they have to be operated by a UK company.
KLMuk Ltd is still trading, it is owned within the KLM group 100%. Indeed she has a rather large amount of tax losses to be used up which is more than likely why the bean counters are keeping things going. KLMuk Ltd is also the principal employer when it comes to the Air UK Pension Scheme which incorporates many different companies from Air Anglia moving onwards.
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Last comment re parent companies, etc........then I promise I'll go and get my coat........
So, who is "KLM UK Holdings Ltd" (as registered at companies house too, with same address as KLM UK Ltd) and what do they do?
ciao
So, who is "KLM UK Holdings Ltd" (as registered at companies house too, with same address as KLM UK Ltd) and what do they do?
ciao
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Originally Posted by Ray D'Avecta
So, who is "KLM UK Holdings Ltd" (as registered at companies house too, with same address as KLM UK Ltd) and what do they do?
ciao
ciao
Company Type: Private Limited Company
Nature of Business (SIC(03)):
7415 - Holding companies including head offices
Previous Names:
Date of change Previous Name
24/03/1999 AIR UK HOLDINGS LIMITED
19/12/1990 PRIZETEST LIMITED