Pilot Strike at KLM?
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Unfortunately it looks like the ballot papers will have to be sent out.The company are treating the UK division with total contempt. The feeling amongst the crews is that they have had enough. The are not willing to let there T&c be driven into the ground any further. Should the strike go ahead it will be with the full backing of Balpa. All other routes would of been exhausted. Considering many of the reasons for the indusrial action will the result of the VNV actions, Where will this leave the VNV. Balpa will request the support of other Unions via Ialpa,the VNV are part of this group. Unless they break ranks with the rest of the Unions they will have to support the uk guys and girls. Could be an interesting debate!!!!!!!!!!!!
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The strike will be on if the company do not sort out the T&C feedback from the crews is that virtually 100pecent are willing to take industrial action.
The crews know if they loose this battle the last person may as well turn out the lights.
The crews know if they loose this battle the last person may as well turn out the lights.
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Thats a really good move, posting an internal company letter on a public forum. Some of you UK guys really make me laugh, do you ever stop complaining? You should have moved across 3 years ago like your former colleagues did, I can't believe you ever thought that a money losing expensive "Low cost" airline like Buzz would ever last and be kept running.See you at the bottom of the list.
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KLSboy
Your post does not deserve any kind of reply apart from a request that you consider what you have written and maybe edit the content.
Lets just leave it at that shall we.
Your post does not deserve any kind of reply apart from a request that you consider what you have written and maybe edit the content.
Lets just leave it at that shall we.
myself. For the general forum Kls boy is Not typical of the general Dutch pilotJoin Date: Aug 2004
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Originally Posted by KLSboy
Thats a really good move, posting an internal company letter on a public forum. Some of you UK guys really make me laugh, do you ever stop complaining? You should have moved across 3 years ago like your former colleagues did, I can't believe you ever thought that a money losing expensive "Low cost" airline like Buzz would ever last and be kept running.See you at the bottom of the list.
idiot.
V1.(a dutch guy)
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Kls Boy you are missing the point and i am not surprised it is not your fault. When you were born this situation was not in the manual. You seem proud and happy that 140 ish pilots are voting on strike action against the treatment received by the company you work for. I am amazed.
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KLSboy,
This is one of the moments I am not proud to be working at KLM. I am surprised we got pilots who are such a bunch of f*ckers like you are! Most likely you are still flying as a student pilot at KLS, it's hard to believe you give yourself the name KLSboy if you're flying md11. 2 options: You are flying md11, then you are a pathetic loser, or you're still a student and you're trying to upset a lot of your (future) english collegues, pathetic loser again AND then see YOU at the BOTTOM of the list, if you make it through the selection proces, f*cker!!
Regards, 747 co-pilot.
PS, I hope we find a good solution to your problems KLCuk pilots, but please try to give the dutch some background info, because we don't know a lot about your situation, the only thing we know is what we read on this forum and no, we're not going to ask VNV because this is a problem between you and KLM and NOT the VNV! So please inform your dutch collegues!
This is one of the moments I am not proud to be working at KLM. I am surprised we got pilots who are such a bunch of f*ckers like you are! Most likely you are still flying as a student pilot at KLS, it's hard to believe you give yourself the name KLSboy if you're flying md11. 2 options: You are flying md11, then you are a pathetic loser, or you're still a student and you're trying to upset a lot of your (future) english collegues, pathetic loser again AND then see YOU at the BOTTOM of the list, if you make it through the selection proces, f*cker!!
Regards, 747 co-pilot.
PS, I hope we find a good solution to your problems KLCuk pilots, but please try to give the dutch some background info, because we don't know a lot about your situation, the only thing we know is what we read on this forum and no, we're not going to ask VNV because this is a problem between you and KLM and NOT the VNV! So please inform your dutch collegues!
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I'd like to know as well. I've spoken to several UK collegues in the BMC, and what struck me is that the most heard argument is 'we are discriminated against'. Well that goes for us too: you earn in pounds what we do in euro's, you have a pension based on your last earned salary, where ours is based on average, you have less early shifts than we do.
So I cannot imagine Balpa is supporting the discrimination claim. Please let us know what you are preparing to strike for. Support from our side may be larger than you think!
So I cannot imagine Balpa is supporting the discrimination claim. Please let us know what you are preparing to strike for. Support from our side may be larger than you think!
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Thanks for your support guys re Kls
In the next few days there will be a infomation sheetdetailing the problems we are having with the company. These will be available in the crew center.
Should tou have any questions once you have read the sheet,I will be please to answere any questions you may have. The bottom line is that we do not want to take any sort of industrial action,However as the company are slowly making more amd more difficult to work for them we have no choice. The general view is if we do not make a stand nowthe UK division will probably be gone within the next couple of years,pilots as well. We are hoping to get as much support from our colleagues so we can put pressure on the company to provide a future for us all.
Thanks again for your interest and hopefully your support when you know the facts..
Safeflying my friends.
In the next few days there will be a infomation sheetdetailing the problems we are having with the company. These will be available in the crew center.
Should tou have any questions once you have read the sheet,I will be please to answere any questions you may have. The bottom line is that we do not want to take any sort of industrial action,However as the company are slowly making more amd more difficult to work for them we have no choice. The general view is if we do not make a stand nowthe UK division will probably be gone within the next couple of years,pilots as well. We are hoping to get as much support from our colleagues so we can put pressure on the company to provide a future for us all.
Thanks again for your interest and hopefully your support when you know the facts..
Safeflying my friends.
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Well that goes for us too: you earn in pounds what we do in euro's, you have a pension based on your last earned salary, where ours is based on average, you have less early shifts than we do.
The highest earning KLC uk Captain is earning c. £75,000. They can go no higher- that is the top incremental pay scale. Assuming that pilot has been in the pension scheme for about 30 years upon retirement then he could potentially get £50,000 pa (€67,500) from his pension.
The KLM scheme is different and although I don't know the details of the benefits, it assumes a career-wide average. When you consider that the average KLM starter is only in his or her early twenties and then they can enjoy approximately 35 years of KLM employement earning what is arguably a "generous" salary- certainly it is much better than many other airlines, and will end their career as a Jumbo Captain earning (so I understand, but I am prepared to be corrected) close to €250,000 pa. Add in the fact that I fly with KLM first officers who earn more than I do as a KLC Uk Captain and they are still in their twenties, you can see that over a career, the average KLM employee will have a significantly higher AVERAGE salary than we have as a FINAL salary.
Also bear in mind that the company want to remove many of the benefits that we currently enjoy by freezing our pension at the level it is this year and all future payrises and increments are to be added into a money purchase pension scheme, with all the risks associated with this. For my own situation, I have calculated that I will be £7,000 pa WORSE OFF in retirement assuming that the investment rates are fairly average. In a poor market, this could be much worse. Some colleagues have calculated that this could be as much as £15,000 per annum for their own circumstances. Assuming that pilot lives until he is 90 (unlikely I know) Ms van Galen's costcutting exercise would have cost that pilot PERSONALLY £450,000 in lost benefits! Is THIS fair?
So you can see that our remuneration is vastly inferior to our KLM colleagues. Not only do we earn significantly less (whilst doing the same job) we will be much poorer in retirement as well.
This grievance goes far deeper than just a mainline entry. Yes, we were given the right to join three years ago but the terms and conditions then were totally unacceptable if you were older than about 30 and married, or had any seniority in KLM uk. As a senior F/O at the time, it would have been untenable to accept the deal. Many of our colleagues don't want to join mainline and will never do so. Many can't for many reasons. Most want some sort of security and an end to the constant apartheid (a Dutch word note) that we experience on a day to day basis. I can't even change my BST password into something more memorable because I have no access to myklm.org- even though I fly a KLM aircraft with KLM passengers, flying with KLM employees I am not worthy of access to this website. My ID pass has KLM Cityhopper UK written in the smallest possible font so everyone can spot us a mile off (assuming they have good eyesight). I don't get given a pack of business cards as my fellow KLC NL colleagues do.
The list is endless and THIS is why we want an end to the inequality and discrimination. We just want the RIGHT to join KLM and not on some silly terms and conditions that they know NO-ONE will accept. We want to be able to be part of the family and there is no reason why we shouldn't be!
To all my Dutch colleagues who are supporting our stand here, I thank you and appreciate your words of support. I am sorry that you haven't been given much information about this rather complex issue but I am assured that there will shortly be something available to you which hopefully may explain our situation. Your continued support is most gratifying.
Nice one, stop!
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KLSboy writes
The single strongest bond that aircrew the world over share is that we never stop complaining so that little bit is an irrelevance. With regard moving over three years ago then for some in hindsight this would have been a sensible solution but you can only act on the information you have at the time plus a little bit of crystal ball gazing. The pilots were informed by the KLM appointee head of Buzz that plans were in hand for expansion and the losses at the start were inevitable as would changes in the way it operated. The possibility of transfer to Buzz at an agreed rate was the corerstone for most people not joining mainline, of course we did not know straight away about the agreement between KLM and the VNV to get rid of pilots to buzz at an agreed rate. You are in a fortunate position working for a good company and with a secure future no doubt brought about by much hard work and cost. The UK pilots don't want anything to change for you, they are not a threat to you or anyone for that matter. We would like fair treatment and the chance to share in the sucess of the airline. At the moment we feel like contract extras just making up the numbers.
Some of you UK guys really make me laugh, do you ever stop complaining? You should have moved across 3 years ago like your former colleagues did, I can't believe you ever thought that a money losing expensive "Low cost" airline like Buzz would ever last and be kept running.
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The KLM scheme is different and although I don't know the details of the benefits, it assumes a career-wide average. When you consider that the average KLM starter is only in his or her early twenties and then they can enjoy approximately 35 years of KLM employement earning what is arguably a "generous" salary- certainly it is much better than many other airlines, and will end their career as a Jumbo Captain earning (so I understand, but I am prepared to be corrected) close to €250,000 pa. Add in the fact that I fly with KLM first officers who earn more than I do as a KLC Uk Captain and they are still in their twenties, you can see that over a career, the average KLM employee will have a significantly higher AVERAGE salary than we have as a FINAL salary.
I can understand that you're building your case by exaggerating, but that's not going to get you my sympathy. Apparently you don't know the facts about our contract, as I don't know them about yours. But let me tell you this: the grass on this side may not be much greener than it is on yours. Just different type of grass, probably.
So please stick with the real facts. What is it that you had, that they want to take away from you? If you're fighting to maintain what you have, I'm sure most KLM pilots will support you (the pension story for example). If you want to join KLM (let's not discuss the position on the list for now, that's more difficult), most KLM pilots will support you, as long as you guys accept the standards that come with it, like being based in AMS.
Point of the story: if you guys want to get a real result in the ongoing negotiations, you're going to need the support of your KLM collegues. Maybe you can put a little more effort in getting that.
Looking forward to the factsheet in the BMC.
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Gonna, Staying with facts is crucial to this debate. In the very near future there will a fact sheet stating the problems we have with the company. I have no paper evidence ,however speaking to one of our former uk colleages,who has moved on to the 737,his pay is very similar to that of a UK jet Captain,remember some of these guys are on a different tax coding.
The bottom line is that we are fighting to save our jobs ,our future. This is simply a matter of survival. We have already lost over 90 UK pilots. Originaly the company had an agreement to lose a given number of UK pilots over a number of years. We have recently learnt that there has been another agreement for this to stop. The point i am making is that we have never been consulted over our future,it has been decided between the company and the VNV. UP til a few weeks ago we were told that we would not be allowed to join mainline. They have now changed that. I will give an example how. Captain TRE, has trained quite a few captains on the F50,if he would like to join Mainline Has to submit an application form ,go for interview, simulator assesment,pyscometric test,should he pass all that,will be offered a position of F/o F50 Pay and pension in accordancewith his position.
Captain TRE F100, At present in charge of training same as above.
The problem we face with the company is that they continue to change the goal post. They closed most of the UK bases for what???
They tried to change our final salary scheme as they said they could not afford it. We have not had a pay rise for the last three years,there are no new recruits on to the UK division. The list goes on and on. The company agree to an issue one day then change there mind the next etc etc etc.
If i were to list ALL the greviances this would continue for pages.
The bottom line is if we lose this argument with the company there will be no UK pilots left within two years.
This has become a quite complex in depth problem.Should you have any specific questions i will answere them as best i can.
Safe flying
The bottom line is that we are fighting to save our jobs ,our future. This is simply a matter of survival. We have already lost over 90 UK pilots. Originaly the company had an agreement to lose a given number of UK pilots over a number of years. We have recently learnt that there has been another agreement for this to stop. The point i am making is that we have never been consulted over our future,it has been decided between the company and the VNV. UP til a few weeks ago we were told that we would not be allowed to join mainline. They have now changed that. I will give an example how. Captain TRE, has trained quite a few captains on the F50,if he would like to join Mainline Has to submit an application form ,go for interview, simulator assesment,pyscometric test,should he pass all that,will be offered a position of F/o F50 Pay and pension in accordancewith his position.
Captain TRE F100, At present in charge of training same as above.
The problem we face with the company is that they continue to change the goal post. They closed most of the UK bases for what???
They tried to change our final salary scheme as they said they could not afford it. We have not had a pay rise for the last three years,there are no new recruits on to the UK division. The list goes on and on. The company agree to an issue one day then change there mind the next etc etc etc.
If i were to list ALL the greviances this would continue for pages.
The bottom line is if we lose this argument with the company there will be no UK pilots left within two years.
This has become a quite complex in depth problem.Should you have any specific questions i will answere them as best i can.
Safe flying