Pilot Strike at KLM?
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Let's not forget that it's not a British vs Dutch dispute, or even an British pilots vs Dutch pilots dispute. It's a an issue of mistreatment of ex KLMUK personnel by KLM management, so PLEASE let us refrain from xenophobic remarks. Since the majority of VNV menbers happen to be KLM pilots, The VNV looks after the interests of these pilots. From timw to time this is also a point of frustration for pilots working for other airlines in the Netherlands, then again; there are similar cases with BALPA.
There are ways to get into European airlines as a Brit but one must often master the national language. I admit that non-Brittons have an advantage here since most already speak english. But as long as you master german or french, you can apply at other airlines. I work for a german airline and had to learn german, yes it would be nicer if all manuals were written in english but hey; that's just the way it is.
I support the exKLMUK guys and hope that they will get what they deserve.
my 2 cents...
There are ways to get into European airlines as a Brit but one must often master the national language. I admit that non-Brittons have an advantage here since most already speak english. But as long as you master german or french, you can apply at other airlines. I work for a german airline and had to learn german, yes it would be nicer if all manuals were written in english but hey; that's just the way it is.
I support the exKLMUK guys and hope that they will get what they deserve.
my 2 cents...
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The Flying Saucepan has got it spot on! As pilots, we must always try to ensure that every single one of our colleagues, whoever they are, is treated in a uniform fashion by the management. They should have the similar contracts, T's & C's, rights for promotion etc... Only national laws should prevent identical contracts. The only people we should be wary about are those who legally shouldn't be here working on shonky "flagging-out" practices.
But as an asside, how about this? 300 or so applied for a direct entry or accelerated command (FK50), 80 were selected for a company medical and fifty or so offered a postion. The rest were considered to be "not up to standard". However, many of these were, and probably still are, working for Denimair as TRE/I's and Line Trainers. However, due to a shortage of trainers in KLM, line training of some of the new F/O's will have to be out-sourced to...
Or this? None of the UK Pilots working for KLM as a F50 Captain could apply for their own job as they aren't qualified!
Lastly, only those with the hours requirement for an ATPL, plus training at either KLS (KLM's Flight School), NLS or the Dutch Armed Forces were able to apply.
But as an asside, how about this? 300 or so applied for a direct entry or accelerated command (FK50), 80 were selected for a company medical and fifty or so offered a postion. The rest were considered to be "not up to standard". However, many of these were, and probably still are, working for Denimair as TRE/I's and Line Trainers. However, due to a shortage of trainers in KLM, line training of some of the new F/O's will have to be out-sourced to...
Or this? None of the UK Pilots working for KLM as a F50 Captain could apply for their own job as they aren't qualified!
Lastly, only those with the hours requirement for an ATPL, plus training at either KLS (KLM's Flight School), NLS or the Dutch Armed Forces were able to apply.
Last edited by Piltdown Man; 10th Mar 2006 at 18:22.
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So everybody sems to agree that klm/vnv treated the ex airuk pilots very badly (I for one do).
So shame on all of us ,for not standing up for this group in the past.
And I hope we will help them when they try and rectify the situation.
So shame on all of us ,for not standing up for this group in the past.
And I hope we will help them when they try and rectify the situation.
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Flying Saucepan well done u have hit the nail on the head what a great post......Its not about who is Dutch and how is British but about two Unions. The VNV looking after the Dutch (which they do a bloody good job at) and BALPA trying to get the best deal they can for the British work force. The big problem is that KLMuk has become a holding company basically supplying KLMuk (contracted pilots) to KLM. No one can deny KLM could have solved this problem in a better way but what i think alot of people want to know is the following:
This problem stems way back at least 4 years ago with the splitting of the AIRuk work force into two (Yellow line [Buzz], blue line [KLMuk]) and we had to make a decision which route to take without KLM providing us and infact withholding vital information.
What really has enoyed me is that BALPA (Gawick) has done bugger all to help the KLMuk/Buzz pilots. All the BALPA company council guys for the last 4 years have worked there arses off for the KLMuk workforce and have done the best they can. BUT BALPA have never given them any real support or backup whats so ever......they are so good at taking all the subs from the 350 so workforce in the union for the last four years put are not willing to put anything back. The BALPA representative has been so poor its unbelievable.
Once again though the CC guys have worked so hard its just a shame that Gatwick has not helped them more... after all they are pilots not trained negotiators. Well done the CC guys keep up the good work.
BALPA WHERE IS THERE HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This problem stems way back at least 4 years ago with the splitting of the AIRuk work force into two (Yellow line [Buzz], blue line [KLMuk]) and we had to make a decision which route to take without KLM providing us and infact withholding vital information.
What really has enoyed me is that BALPA (Gawick) has done bugger all to help the KLMuk/Buzz pilots. All the BALPA company council guys for the last 4 years have worked there arses off for the KLMuk workforce and have done the best they can. BUT BALPA have never given them any real support or backup whats so ever......they are so good at taking all the subs from the 350 so workforce in the union for the last four years put are not willing to put anything back. The BALPA representative has been so poor its unbelievable.
Once again though the CC guys have worked so hard its just a shame that Gatwick has not helped them more... after all they are pilots not trained negotiators. Well done the CC guys keep up the good work.
BALPA WHERE IS THERE HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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For your information KLMer
1. BALPA are at heathrow not Gatwick
2. The BALPA general secretary met with the KLM management yesterday and I believe progress was made. So BALPA are doing something.
3. I agree the CC have worked bloody hard!
1. BALPA are at heathrow not Gatwick
2. The BALPA general secretary met with the KLM management yesterday and I believe progress was made. So BALPA are doing something.
3. I agree the CC have worked bloody hard!
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Bluepilot, Sorry for getting the location wrong of BALPA's head office ie. Heathrow not Gatwick though i was not aware this made a difference in there performance. I am so pleased the General Sec has finally arranged a meeting its only taken 4 years.
I am pleased though that every one thinks the CC are doing a good job as it is very much a thankless task by many..
I am pleased though that every one thinks the CC are doing a good job as it is very much a thankless task by many..
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hmmmm..........
KLM'er said...
Maybe thats your personal experience, but mine is vastly different. I have had no problems whatsoever, and what type of contract I am on, is quite simply never an issue. Everybody appreciates that each persons circumstances at the time of signing the KLM contract were different, and dictated what choices we made. No doubt some people regret not taking the offer at the time, and may be slightly envious, having seen now that it was not the doom and gloom forecast by others.By and large, I have experienced no animosity. The usual crew room type banter? Yes. Animosity? No.
However, if you are the type to flaunt your own good fortune in the face of other peoples adversity,
, abuse, bullying and being obstracised are all to be expected.
NOW BACK TO THE THREAD
In my opinion, the catalyst for the current mess is that 3 or 4 years ago, KLM successfully created a blackhole called KLCuk, and used "TUPE" to lure a large number of pilots into it. By creating this smokescreen, they avoided the type of negotiations that they frequently enter into (and come out second best in) with the VNV. BALPA fell into a carefully laid trap that resulted in them percieving success in maintaining the status quo for most of the pilots, without realising that in reality, an opportunity to negotiate wholesale changes for the betterment of (and parity) the pilot workforce as a whole had been missed. It is those much needed changes that I feel are at the root of the current standoff.
Whilst it is also fashionable to make the VNV the scapegoat, lets remember that BALPA do not negotiate with the VNV. BALPA and the VNV both negotiate with KLM, and it is for KLM to mediate in and coordinate the stated objectives and demands of both unions. Neither the VNV or BALPA can be blamed for making demands that are in their members best interests, even if this is potentially to the detriment of the other union. There is no problem that can not be solved,.....it is the cost or acceptability of the solution that sometimes precludes it from being reached.
I wish BALPA all the very best in the current standoff, and in the current CC they have the right men for the task. It saddens me to see colleagues being mis-treated and discriminated against.
Muscle flexing like this by BALPA would have been much more effective 2 or 3 years ago, but better late than never. I have also heard that there are demands on both sides that are quite simply, excessive or unreasonable. I cant comment either way, but suggest that being realistic in your demands makes it easier to reach a solution....and remember, it is KLM that you have a 'beef' with, not the VNV.
KLM'er said...
What i am supprised about is how some of my ex-KLMuk colleagues bully and ostracise me on an everyday occurance since i signed the new contract, i would love to know how i have personally changed and deserve this. One cant even go into the old NH (AIRuk bar) Hotel without getting abuse.
However, if you are the type to flaunt your own good fortune in the face of other peoples adversity,
, abuse, bullying and being obstracised are all to be expected. NOW BACK TO THE THREAD
In my opinion, the catalyst for the current mess is that 3 or 4 years ago, KLM successfully created a blackhole called KLCuk, and used "TUPE" to lure a large number of pilots into it. By creating this smokescreen, they avoided the type of negotiations that they frequently enter into (and come out second best in) with the VNV. BALPA fell into a carefully laid trap that resulted in them percieving success in maintaining the status quo for most of the pilots, without realising that in reality, an opportunity to negotiate wholesale changes for the betterment of (and parity) the pilot workforce as a whole had been missed. It is those much needed changes that I feel are at the root of the current standoff.
Whilst it is also fashionable to make the VNV the scapegoat, lets remember that BALPA do not negotiate with the VNV. BALPA and the VNV both negotiate with KLM, and it is for KLM to mediate in and coordinate the stated objectives and demands of both unions. Neither the VNV or BALPA can be blamed for making demands that are in their members best interests, even if this is potentially to the detriment of the other union. There is no problem that can not be solved,.....it is the cost or acceptability of the solution that sometimes precludes it from being reached.
I wish BALPA all the very best in the current standoff, and in the current CC they have the right men for the task. It saddens me to see colleagues being mis-treated and discriminated against.
Muscle flexing like this by BALPA would have been much more effective 2 or 3 years ago, but better late than never. I have also heard that there are demands on both sides that are quite simply, excessive or unreasonable. I cant comment either way, but suggest that being realistic in your demands makes it easier to reach a solution....and remember, it is KLM that you have a 'beef' with, not the VNV.
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As a present klcUK pilot I amm saddened to hear that KLMer is being given a hard time by his colleages. We do not have a problem with the Dutch people. Many of our Dutch colleagues are very supportive. The discrimination that we are suffering is a result of KLM management.As with many airlines KLM need to recruit pilots (more than can be suppied by there training school).Why should we be told that we are not allowed to join mainline, after all we have been flying there aircraft for 5 years. We have been the most flexable pilots in europe.We have agreed to the dutch ftl,night stopped continuously for the last 3 years,and changed to the new klm sop's. As has already been mentioned the company have lost lots of high quality pilots and will continue to do so unless the company start to act responsibly.
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When the UK-guys had the choice of which contract, they choose the one that suited them most (or hurted them least), but as a relatively small group they're now totally stuck. Unhappy with the contract they choose and unable to improve it. Only way to go is the mainline contract and negotiate some additional items to enable a social family life in the UK. This is gonna cost both parties something since kostenneutraal is still a hot issue. I see many solutions, but by fighting/alienating everybody they' re only gonna end up with the legal minimum of what they' re entitled to.
Just my 2 Eurocents.
Just my 2 Eurocents.
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Originally Posted by LLuke
When the UK-guys had the choice of which contract, they choose the one that suited them most (or hurted them least), but as a relatively small group they're now totally stuck. Unhappy with the contract they choose and unable to improve it. Only way to go is the mainline contract and negotiate some additional items to enable a social family life in the UK. This is gonna cost both parties something since kostenneutraal is still a hot issue. I see many solutions, but by fighting/alienating everybody they' re only gonna end up with the legal minimum of what they' re entitled to.
Just my 2 Eurocents.
Just my 2 Eurocents.
Unfortunatly LLuke this shows the mis-understanding that alot of out collegues in mainline have of our situation, we have tried for three years to talk, reason etc, and all that has happened is things have got worse, nobody want to resort to a fight or threats but we have been left with no option.
Most chose to move to BUZZ but a week after decisions had to be made KLM sold BUZZ to Ryanair, these pilots were then told tough the mainline option is now closed you must stay in KLCuk. We were mislead by the KLM board.
FACT: the VNV HAVE blocked UK management/training appointments and insisted that "mainline contract" pilots only get the jobs, FACT: the Duin & Kruidberg Agreement calls for uk jobs to reduce by a set number per year FACT: KLMuk pilots were NEVER invited to integration talks involving the Duin & Kruidberg Agreement which directly affected their futures. FACT: Duin & Kruidberg Agreement states that KLCuk can never employ another pilot in the UK. Forgive me this is pure discrimination.
I do not blame you or my collegues on mainline directly, as has been stated before most are decent people and would not wish for others to be harmed in their name, but this is exactly what is happening here.
KLCuk has reduced by 100 pilots in the past few years, these jobs have been replaced by pilots on mainline contracts, so that means there are 100 pilots on the mailine seneiority list working for KLM who have directly benefited by our loss, this is not only unfair but damn right immoral.
there are about 140ish pilots left in KLCuk all they ask for is long term security for them and their families.
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I am looking forward to the day that the "merger"with Air France shows to be the "take over" that it really is and that the French unions tell the VNV where to go. 
Agree with blue pilot that the VNV their position has been EXTREMELY immoral...
In the short term it is a petty that highly qualified Air UK jocks are more or less forced to go back to the UK while KLC has a major training problemand amazingly low reliability...
Agree with blue pilot that the VNV their position has been EXTREMELY immoral...In the short term it is a petty that highly qualified Air UK jocks are more or less forced to go back to the UK while KLC has a major training problemand amazingly low reliability...
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bluepilot you have hit the nail on the head - I look forward to the scrap between the Air France unions and the VNV, its about time the VNV were shown just how much clout they have not got.
We also see the President (Balpa) and the Vice President (VNV) of the ECA talking about how mergers should be done and that the minority should be protected - they cant even get it right in their own back yards.
I just hope the VNV get for their members in the Air France takeover as much as they gave to their colleagues at KLCuk.
Its total discrimination in many forms, absolutely disgusting and immoral.
We also see the President (Balpa) and the Vice President (VNV) of the ECA talking about how mergers should be done and that the minority should be protected - they cant even get it right in their own back yards.
I just hope the VNV get for their members in the Air France takeover as much as they gave to their colleagues at KLCuk.
Its total discrimination in many forms, absolutely disgusting and immoral.
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Hi Bluepilot, I was just describing my 'best way out' for your current situation.
Most facts you mention are i.m.h.o. just results/consequenses of having different contracts. The Dutch union (VNV) has never before and never will, accept situations where KLM pilots were judged/reprimanded/fired by non KLM pilots. Consequence: it makes a pilot on UK contract working for KLC UK pretty useless in any KLM management position. They also make sure that only KLM pilots can fly for KLM out of AMS and that the UK contract will not be exploited for cheap labour, I am sure there are managers dreaming about f.i. KLM-India with cheap pilots flying out of AMS. The KLC UK contract was a potential leak on smuggling cheap labour into AMS. A contract on which the VNV obviously has no control. Concequence: the requirement for reducing the number of UK contracts. Pilots can and do live wherever they want all over the world, the VNV really doesn' t care but there will be only one contract out of AMS.
I am very happy that you' re negotiating via BALPA where there is a lot of expertise in making contracts. Bad contracts can be beneficial on the short term for a few, but a disaster for many on longer term. Hence the suggestion from my previous post, (re)open negotiations and join mainline contract. It would make life so much easier...
Most facts you mention are i.m.h.o. just results/consequenses of having different contracts. The Dutch union (VNV) has never before and never will, accept situations where KLM pilots were judged/reprimanded/fired by non KLM pilots. Consequence: it makes a pilot on UK contract working for KLC UK pretty useless in any KLM management position. They also make sure that only KLM pilots can fly for KLM out of AMS and that the UK contract will not be exploited for cheap labour, I am sure there are managers dreaming about f.i. KLM-India with cheap pilots flying out of AMS. The KLC UK contract was a potential leak on smuggling cheap labour into AMS. A contract on which the VNV obviously has no control. Concequence: the requirement for reducing the number of UK contracts. Pilots can and do live wherever they want all over the world, the VNV really doesn' t care but there will be only one contract out of AMS.
I am very happy that you' re negotiating via BALPA where there is a lot of expertise in making contracts. Bad contracts can be beneficial on the short term for a few, but a disaster for many on longer term. Hence the suggestion from my previous post, (re)open negotiations and join mainline contract. It would make life so much easier...
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Dear Autofeather, I know you won't believe me, but the VNV is not your enemy. I am sure that KLM will try to play both unions apart. Another disadvantage of having different contracts represented by different unions.
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Originally Posted by LLuke
Dear Autofeather, I know you won't believe me, but the VNV is not your enemy. I am sure that KLM will try to play both unions apart. Another disadvantage of having different contracts represented by different unions.
I guess it must really hurt when the truth eventually gets out. I sincerely hope the French unions pay no notice to this thread, for the sake of the VNV. I mentioned earlier that I hoped the VNV and their members get what they deserve, that was an emotive post and one that should not have been said. I dont wish bad on anyone I just would prefer it if the VNV treated others like they would wish to be treated themselves.
Just what is it that VNV are worried about with the KLCuk pilots?
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"You are right - I dont. I guess it must really hurt when the truth eventually gets out."
If this truth is in Bluepilots post in the third alinea ("Most chose to..."), I fail to see how this is related to the VNV.
"Just what is it that VNV are worried about with the KLCuk pilots?"
I'am actually a bit guessing here, but it is not about the KLCuk pilots, it is i.m.o. about the exploits their contract introduces.
I understand it is difficult for small groups to get organized, but if I was in your situation, I'd organize a meeting with the VNV. You can verify/discuss all your accusations, if they are true VNV will feel bad which should bring goodwill, if the accusations are false, it is good to know for you.
If this truth is in Bluepilots post in the third alinea ("Most chose to..."), I fail to see how this is related to the VNV.
"Just what is it that VNV are worried about with the KLCuk pilots?"
I'am actually a bit guessing here, but it is not about the KLCuk pilots, it is i.m.o. about the exploits their contract introduces.
I understand it is difficult for small groups to get organized, but if I was in your situation, I'd organize a meeting with the VNV. You can verify/discuss all your accusations, if they are true VNV will feel bad which should bring goodwill, if the accusations are false, it is good to know for you.
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LLuke,
I have already stated in my previous post that one of our major issues is not being aloud to join mainline.
I read with interest all the views relating to the VNV,however if the KLM management were determined to give us a fair deal a solution would have been thrashed out the union.
We are in a position where by KLM need pilots (from talks with several fairly senior KLM training captains)approx 120 per year for the next 3 years. Yet the computer says NO!!!!!
Our working relationship with our Dutch colleagues is very good,we have received much support especialy from the flight crew.However the treatment are receiving from KLM management is beyond comprehension.
Lets hope common sense prevails before all ties are severed.
I have already stated in my previous post that one of our major issues is not being aloud to join mainline.
I read with interest all the views relating to the VNV,however if the KLM management were determined to give us a fair deal a solution would have been thrashed out the union.
We are in a position where by KLM need pilots (from talks with several fairly senior KLM training captains)approx 120 per year for the next 3 years. Yet the computer says NO!!!!!
Our working relationship with our Dutch colleagues is very good,we have received much support especialy from the flight crew.However the treatment are receiving from KLM management is beyond comprehension.
Lets hope common sense prevails before all ties are severed.
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And I am saying it is better for you to find a [any] deal where you join mainline. Your situation is rather uncertain with little protection. If the forecasts are true, the summer will be hot enough to get people around the table :-)
The KLM pilots have a good CLA. The VNV is in no way saying no to UK pilots (they can' t since they don' t have any influence on KLM and the UK contract), but it is in no way willing to give up any rights that it holds, would require a change in our CLA and could introduce dangerous loopholes in the future.
The KLM pilots have a good CLA. The VNV is in no way saying no to UK pilots (they can' t since they don' t have any influence on KLM and the UK contract), but it is in no way willing to give up any rights that it holds, would require a change in our CLA and could introduce dangerous loopholes in the future.
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I understand it is difficult for small groups to get organized, but if I was in your situation, I'd organize a meeting with the VNV. You can verify/discuss all your accusations, if they are true VNV will feel bad which should bring goodwill, if the accusations are false, it is good to know for you
BALPA were not allowed to be included in talks with the VNV and the Air France Pilots union regarding future harmonisation of the workforce.
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"BALPA were not allowed to be included in talks with the VNV and the Air France Pilots union regarding future harmonisation of the workforce."
I hate to sound ironic, but neither were the pilots of Japan Airlines. I am only guessing here, but I presume you don' t have a contract with KLM but with ??KLM-UK??. I guess the current setup is sth like KLM leasing pilots from KLM-UK. A great setup...as long as it lasts.
"LLuke, the BALPA CC has tried to have a constructive meeting with the VNV for several years. Each time a meeting is arranged, it is cancelled the day before with some reason or other being given. It is clear that the VNV do not wish to have talks with BALPA."
There are people from the union daily/weekly in the BMC, BALPA and VNV are working closely together in the ECA, presidents from BALPA and VNV are now president resp. vice-president of ECA ...
... and your BALPA representative is not able to arrange a meeting?
Before you have this 'constructive meeting' also don' t forget that you have your contract with a company, not the VNV. The VNV can only give information/advise on what to do to improve your situation.
I consider you as much a KLM pilot as I am, but your current contract is not going to do you any good.
I hate to sound ironic, but neither were the pilots of Japan Airlines. I am only guessing here, but I presume you don' t have a contract with KLM but with ??KLM-UK??. I guess the current setup is sth like KLM leasing pilots from KLM-UK. A great setup...as long as it lasts.
"LLuke, the BALPA CC has tried to have a constructive meeting with the VNV for several years. Each time a meeting is arranged, it is cancelled the day before with some reason or other being given. It is clear that the VNV do not wish to have talks with BALPA."
There are people from the union daily/weekly in the BMC, BALPA and VNV are working closely together in the ECA, presidents from BALPA and VNV are now president resp. vice-president of ECA ...
... and your BALPA representative is not able to arrange a meeting?
Before you have this 'constructive meeting' also don' t forget that you have your contract with a company, not the VNV. The VNV can only give information/advise on what to do to improve your situation.
I consider you as much a KLM pilot as I am, but your current contract is not going to do you any good.