BA pilots 'prepared to strike'?
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Ba Pension problem
From what I can glean from the media. (BBC). The only change in the offer as compared to yesterday's deal with the NAPS trustees is: Offer to decrease the retirement age by employee option to 60 by pilot employee contributions rising from 6.5% to 11.25%, dropping to 10% after 5 years. 37m extra cash per year from the company, all other caps remain the same. Ground staff if they opt for 60 retirement their contributions increase from 5.25% to 10%. If somebody has more information please post it.
Last edited by WhoopWhoop Whoops; 16th Nov 2006 at 23:09.
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HOLD ON EVERYONE! WW and the team have saved the day... Really?
Headline news - Frontpage of BA NEWS (Thursday NOV 16 2006)
''NAPS triple cash boost offer...'' ''Cash injection rises to £800million''
Goes on to say that BA have offered to inject extra cash to plug the £2.1 billion hole in the NAPS scheme...
Will this be enough to fend off strike action?
Oh by the way the company has agreed to 'roll-out' the NEW CLUB CLASS product on all longhaul aircraft, to include new seats, entertainment systems and food to the tune of around £100 million. Yet another Club Class re-fit!!!
WW and his team of jolly henchmen have signed the death-knell to staff (Regional based staff) through the wasting of more money, this time on a Club product that was perfectly acceptable as it was - ask the passengers who made bookings and - look at the figures with Club Class more often than not, being oversold. Question is, why change something thats working perfectly well?
Nice one 'Team Waterworld'
Headline news - Frontpage of BA NEWS (Thursday NOV 16 2006)
''NAPS triple cash boost offer...'' ''Cash injection rises to £800million''
Goes on to say that BA have offered to inject extra cash to plug the £2.1 billion hole in the NAPS scheme...
Will this be enough to fend off strike action?
Oh by the way the company has agreed to 'roll-out' the NEW CLUB CLASS product on all longhaul aircraft, to include new seats, entertainment systems and food to the tune of around £100 million. Yet another Club Class re-fit!!!
WW and his team of jolly henchmen have signed the death-knell to staff (Regional based staff) through the wasting of more money, this time on a Club product that was perfectly acceptable as it was - ask the passengers who made bookings and - look at the figures with Club Class more often than not, being oversold. Question is, why change something thats working perfectly well?
Nice one 'Team Waterworld'
PPRuNe Person
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It's a sad fact that BALPA HQ do not have the balls to support Industrial Action despite your own personal resolve.
Will this be enough to fend off strike action?
Christmas could be interesting.
Question is, why change something thats working perfectly well?
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We recognise that normal retirement age was a sticking point and we have put forward an option that allows staff to retire at 60," said BA's chief financial officer Keith Williams.
"Staff can still choose not to pay any extra but it will mean working longer to get the same pension."
For ground staff, contributions would rise from 5.25% to 10% and for air crew from 6.5% to 11.25%. After five years, the rates would be harmonised at 10% for all staff.
...
The above is a quote made today......
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Question....If BA say these new % are required to keep the same NRD for members of staff, why would rate be harmonised after 5 years to the same level of 10% ???, I can't see how these numbers have been made up???
...
I would like to know what % of staff pay would BA accept to leave NAPs alone, this would make it very simple for all staff to understand just how big these changes are!!!
"Staff can still choose not to pay any extra but it will mean working longer to get the same pension."
For ground staff, contributions would rise from 5.25% to 10% and for air crew from 6.5% to 11.25%. After five years, the rates would be harmonised at 10% for all staff.
...
The above is a quote made today......
...
Question....If BA say these new % are required to keep the same NRD for members of staff, why would rate be harmonised after 5 years to the same level of 10% ???, I can't see how these numbers have been made up???
...
I would like to know what % of staff pay would BA accept to leave NAPs alone, this would make it very simple for all staff to understand just how big these changes are!!!
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The re-fit is necessary. BA's most profitable product is getting stale. All airlines do this and it's an absolute necessity, in order to attract business paying customers. It's a bit like asking a car manufacturer not to redesign its cars. After a while (if they don't), your customers will start moving to competitors who have a more updated model.
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There is no timetable yet. Even if there is a strike, I'd be surprised if it would be particularly lengthy. IMHO, you're unlikely to be affected.
If there turns out to be a ballot and you are a BALPA member and employed by BA at the time, I expect you will receive a ballot paper. How you choose to deal with it is up to you.
If there turns out to be a ballot and you are a BALPA member and employed by BA at the time, I expect you will receive a ballot paper. How you choose to deal with it is up to you.
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Thanks HumanFactor, hopefully I will still get to join BA.
As to how I will deal with it ( if I get a ballot) I do not know. With the caveat that I have not even started yet, and I have very little knowledge of the many issues regarding the pension fund.
I do think that people who joined and were promised a particular deal should recieve the pension they were expecting. However the most important thing from were I am sitting is the continued viability of the company, with luck I have more than 30 years at BA and I want the company to be around for that time.
Clearly the company will try and minimise its contribution to the fund and it must not be allowed to put in less than it can afford. I sincerly hope that no strike occurs and an acceptable comprimise is reached.
As to how I will deal with it ( if I get a ballot) I do not know. With the caveat that I have not even started yet, and I have very little knowledge of the many issues regarding the pension fund.
I do think that people who joined and were promised a particular deal should recieve the pension they were expecting. However the most important thing from were I am sitting is the continued viability of the company, with luck I have more than 30 years at BA and I want the company to be around for that time.
Clearly the company will try and minimise its contribution to the fund and it must not be allowed to put in less than it can afford. I sincerly hope that no strike occurs and an acceptable comprimise is reached.
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BA is the most profitable airline in the world. The business flyer likes us. We fly full aeroplanes. To stand still and not invest, as you suggest, is simply maddness. Your type of logic consigned the British Car industry to the scrap heap. And that is where BA will go if it followed your opinion.
Luckily, for all the sins that BA makes, Wiser heads prevail than yours.
Luckily, for all the sins that BA makes, Wiser heads prevail than yours.
BA the most profitable airline? I think not... Ever heard of Emirates? Yes, these guys know how to put on a show! Like it or not, BA just cant compete...
Investment in new aircraft is what BA need to do, and now. The B737 fleet is approaching on average 18 years, and the B747-400 fleet is begining to show its age (earlier models). Dont forget that we face a possible court action on fuel surcharge charges - up to £800 million fine plus jail terms, the impending pension crisis and the carve up of regional stations - all that before T5 even opens it doors.
There is HEE-HAW wrong with the current Club config. If there were, then no one would bother to use it would they?
Yes, the British car industry, like every other industry in the UK BACK THEN, was at the forefront of design and inovation - look at it now... Its no so much a question of investment, but having the attitude that we are the best when clearly we have been caught napping for some time, allowing others to come in, see whats on offer, go away and better it and make it more affordable. Not so long ago people within BA were saying easyjet would never survuve. Soon afterwards, GO arrives. Then is sold to easyjet. Look at easyjet now... I REST MY CASE.
Wonder who the wise-men are... Was it them who decided to 'rebrand' BAConnect and give them 2 years to survive, in the end giving them just a matter of months before 'share-swapping' with flybe.com - and taking a 15% stake in said low-frills carrier... Mmmmmmmmm... Yes maybe I missed something, but there again try telling all the regional based UK ground staff that on Christmas Eve, when the wise-headed men send out redundancy letters. No room at the Inn for us anymore. T5 is more important - your welcome to it
PS - Yes the business passenger likes BA, until he is jacked around on his domestic flights, losses his GOLD or SILVER card and forced to fly with someone else ie Sale of BAConnect to flybe.com... Afterall its the frequent domestic trips that build up points added to the lonhaul sectors...
Last edited by tristar500; 19th Nov 2006 at 18:48.
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In a sickening parallel to the British car industry, British Leyland finally went under whilst its executive leadership were spending 70% of their time working out how to screw the staff. They were so busy trying to extract revenge over the unions, they lost sight of why they were in business in the first place, and simply forgot about the product.
Those who fail to learn the lessons of history . . .
Those who fail to learn the lessons of history . . .
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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- all that before T5 even opens it doors.
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In a sickening parallel to the British car industry, British Leyland finally went under whilst its executive leadership were spending 70% of their time working out how to screw the staff. They were so busy trying to extract revenge over the unions, they lost sight of why they were in business in the first place.
There was a discovery programme recently where some recently retired airline staff said ... Never has there been such an industry where management are so hellbent on treating their staff with increasing contempt, and hardworking resilient staff are so unvalued.
What was Willie Walsh's quote just recently ... "Loyalty has no value"..........
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How can it possibly be equated to Leyland when they are highly focussing on the product so that they don't lose ground to the Asian airlines, in complete contrast to that failure?
WW made an extremely foolish and unguarded comment about the value of loyalty, which probably reflects his attitude towards both his job and his future, but I don't think that should be translated through all of management. Although some act and bahave in that manner, others are well aware of what is required to keep the operation flying, I am sure.
WW has lost a large amount of respect I might have had for his business operations, as he obviously has the same regard for human capital as O'Leary. Yes, they are both successful and canny operators, but such comments do nothing for relations - one element they disregarded in copying the SouthWest model in Europe. Shareholders might love his ability to run a lean, enduring airline model, but I would be worried as a shareholder that his management ability is too combative and somewhat lacking at the personal skills level.
With regards to the Club World upgrade, tristar500, you are confusing current success with what is needed to stay ahead of the game in the future - yes it is successful at the moment, but future success is not necessarily assured if the product become stale.
PS - can the mod please make a comment if they delete a post. It is incredibly annoying to write something and find it has vanished with no comment at all.
WW made an extremely foolish and unguarded comment about the value of loyalty, which probably reflects his attitude towards both his job and his future, but I don't think that should be translated through all of management. Although some act and bahave in that manner, others are well aware of what is required to keep the operation flying, I am sure.
WW has lost a large amount of respect I might have had for his business operations, as he obviously has the same regard for human capital as O'Leary. Yes, they are both successful and canny operators, but such comments do nothing for relations - one element they disregarded in copying the SouthWest model in Europe. Shareholders might love his ability to run a lean, enduring airline model, but I would be worried as a shareholder that his management ability is too combative and somewhat lacking at the personal skills level.
With regards to the Club World upgrade, tristar500, you are confusing current success with what is needed to stay ahead of the game in the future - yes it is successful at the moment, but future success is not necessarily assured if the product become stale.
PS - can the mod please make a comment if they delete a post. It is incredibly annoying to write something and find it has vanished with no comment at all.
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Emirates is ahead at margin level only.
Furthermore the car industry in the UK employs more people than ever before at the moment and is more innovative and profitable than at any time in the past. The only difference is the ownership.
the lunatic fringe
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BA the most profitable airline? I think not... Ever heard of Emirates? Yes, these guys know how to put on a show! Like it or not, BA just cant compete...
There is HEE-HAW wrong with the current Club config. If there were, then no one would bother to use it would they?
Not so long ago people within BA were saying easyjet would never survive. Soon afterwards, GO arrives. Then is sold to easyjet. Look at easyjet now... I REST MY CASE.
BA has met the challenge of the LOCO carriers head on. And has done so with great success. You may disagree with the methods that Rod Eddington employed, but we currently provide a very real challenge to them. And a challenge in a brand new fleet of Airbuses. With a service. With a pilot workforce that is working absolutely flat out.
No room at the Inn for us anymore. T5 is more important - your welcome to it
BA is a huge monolithic beast. Made up of both good and bad. It is neither all good, or all bad. We have both good and bad managers. We have bad arrogant pilots, and good approachable aces.
T5 is vital to the airline. Like it or lump it. If T5 does not work, BA is bust.
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NAPs changes, how much it will cost you?
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The first package, which requires paying more, features:
· A normal retirement age of 60 for a contribution rate of 10 per cent
· An accrual rate of 1/60th
· The option to buy a faster accrual of 1/56th or 1/52nd for a further 3.6 per cent or 7.2 per cent respectively
· A cap on pension growth in retirement of 2.5 per cent or keeping the current five per cent for a further 3.9 per cent contribution.
.................................................. .................................................. .
So it appears to keep NRD, 1/56 accrual and five per cent in retirement will just mean staff contributions changing from 5.25% to 17.8%, just a 12.55% increase in payments!!!
I suggest all staff work out what take home pay will look like with an extra 12.55% being paid into pensions!!!
The good news is apart from the above, any time BA can show people live longer, staff will take ongoing hits to reduce pension even more, plus any pay rise in future for pension will be be limited to inflation at that point in time, lots of scope to cut pension costs with some clever pay deals!!!
I suggest all unions get with BALPA on this one ASAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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The above was from an engineering web site, appears the numbers quoted for pilots and cabin crew are even stronger? looks like the show will start soon, good luck to all the BA staff.
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The first package, which requires paying more, features:
· A normal retirement age of 60 for a contribution rate of 10 per cent
· An accrual rate of 1/60th
· The option to buy a faster accrual of 1/56th or 1/52nd for a further 3.6 per cent or 7.2 per cent respectively
· A cap on pension growth in retirement of 2.5 per cent or keeping the current five per cent for a further 3.9 per cent contribution.
.................................................. .................................................. .
So it appears to keep NRD, 1/56 accrual and five per cent in retirement will just mean staff contributions changing from 5.25% to 17.8%, just a 12.55% increase in payments!!!
I suggest all staff work out what take home pay will look like with an extra 12.55% being paid into pensions!!!
The good news is apart from the above, any time BA can show people live longer, staff will take ongoing hits to reduce pension even more, plus any pay rise in future for pension will be be limited to inflation at that point in time, lots of scope to cut pension costs with some clever pay deals!!!
I suggest all unions get with BALPA on this one ASAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
............................................................ ................................
............................................................ ................................
The above was from an engineering web site, appears the numbers quoted for pilots and cabin crew are even stronger? looks like the show will start soon, good luck to all the BA staff.
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just a 12.55% increase in payments!!!
Your figures show a 240% increase! ie pension payments will be 3.4 times higher than they are currently.
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You are not comparing like with like. Emirates is effectively a state run, and state financed airline. Its profit or loss cannot be compared to any publicly quoted airline.
It is a good product, but the rest are catching fast and overtaking. So BA absolutely has to invest in the product or we will have no passengers to fly in the new shiny aeroplanes that you want BA to buy.
Shouting "I rest my case" is really going to convince us all that you must be correct.
BA has met the challenge of the LOCO carriers head on. And has done so with great success. You may disagree with the methods that Rod Eddington employed, but we currently provide a very real challenge to them. And a challenge in a brand new fleet of Airbuses. With a service. With a pilot workforce that is working absolutely flat out.
I understand your bitterness towards BA at fortress LHR. I spent 10 years in the regions. But that bitterness clouds and distorts your opinion of all things BA.
BA is a huge monolithic beast. Made up of both good and bad. It is neither all good, or all bad. We have both good and bad managers. We have bad arrogant pilots, and good approachable aces.
T5 is vital to the airline. Like it or lump it. If T5 does not work, BA is bust.
It is a good product, but the rest are catching fast and overtaking. So BA absolutely has to invest in the product or we will have no passengers to fly in the new shiny aeroplanes that you want BA to buy.
Shouting "I rest my case" is really going to convince us all that you must be correct.
BA has met the challenge of the LOCO carriers head on. And has done so with great success. You may disagree with the methods that Rod Eddington employed, but we currently provide a very real challenge to them. And a challenge in a brand new fleet of Airbuses. With a service. With a pilot workforce that is working absolutely flat out.
I understand your bitterness towards BA at fortress LHR. I spent 10 years in the regions. But that bitterness clouds and distorts your opinion of all things BA.
BA is a huge monolithic beast. Made up of both good and bad. It is neither all good, or all bad. We have both good and bad managers. We have bad arrogant pilots, and good approachable aces.
T5 is vital to the airline. Like it or lump it. If T5 does not work, BA is bust.
Whatever...
Lets just hope all the hype over T5 and the rest of Team Waterworld will save the day... Theres no point in arguing... I still maintain that BA need to fix 'Grass Roots' problems first, before spending lavish sums of cash on a product that is already sufficient, and selling extremely well, before the BIG move to the BIG HOUSE at LHR, before the pension crisis is sorted, and before the fleet upgrade. Invest - YES - in the right direction and at the right time.
Iam not bitter. Just a tad dissapointed in the way the company is going, more recently since WWs arrival. In my 10 years at BA I can hoestly say that I have never ever heard staff feeling so de-motivated as they feel right now.
No hard feelings L337 eh?