BA pilots 'prepared to strike'?
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Faire d'income,
My post on seniority was not supposed to be exhaustive, and I thank you for adding your thoughts. May I be allowed to amend my position slightly in view of the comments you have added?
I was just trying to point out that there are advantages for both sides in having an established (and effectively policed) seniority list. The union involvement in policing it effectively WRT promotion and redundancy is a slightly separate issue from its existence in the first place though and I also agree with all your points regarding us needing to stick together. Unfortunately us Nigels do not have a particularly good historical record in that direction.
You are so right about the need for effective union representation though. As an example, I have worked in a company where promotion was at the whim of the Chief Training Captain despite us having had a seniority list. The guys and gals not on the 'popular' list didn't even get a crack at a command course.
So maybe I might be allowed to amend my summing up (quoted above) to the following...
Originally Posted by Nearly Nigel
I am sure that there will be issues that I haven't thought of, but overall, I would have to suggest that seniority benefits the companies much more than the pilots.
I was just trying to point out that there are advantages for both sides in having an established (and effectively policed) seniority list. The union involvement in policing it effectively WRT promotion and redundancy is a slightly separate issue from its existence in the first place though and I also agree with all your points regarding us needing to stick together. Unfortunately us Nigels do not have a particularly good historical record in that direction.
You are so right about the need for effective union representation though. As an example, I have worked in a company where promotion was at the whim of the Chief Training Captain despite us having had a seniority list. The guys and gals not on the 'popular' list didn't even get a crack at a command course.
So maybe I might be allowed to amend my summing up (quoted above) to the following...
I am sure that there will be issues that I haven't thought of, and clearly there are both benefits and disadvantages for both sides in having an established and well policed seniority list, some of which are not as clear cut as some posters on here would have us believe. Overall, I feel that seniority has more benefits for the companies than it may appear at first glance.
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I've just spotted this little quote from the Transport Minister Dr. Stephen Ladyman.
It's in response to a question and answer session on various transport matters posed by The Consumers' Association on the back of this June's Which? magazine.
Q) A £1 levy on air tickets has been proposed to cover people when airlines go bust - why do you oppose it?
A) We don't charge a levy in any other area of commerce in case the company you're dealing with is going to go broke. More importantly, I think companies like British Airways, which are not going to go broke, had the argument - and I think it is a legitimate one - "Why should we make our passengers pay £1 so that some under-financed airline can take our business away?"
Now don't let the thread drift away into debating the £1 levy, but I thought it was worth quoting our very own Transport Minister suggesting that British Airways are not going to go broke.
Yet according to Willy & Co, we are in grave danger of doing so if we don't achieve the fabled 10% operating margin. Talking of which, net debt has reduced by £1.4 billion over the past year (with only an 8.5% operating margin), yet the trustees have stated that they agree that the company can't afford the ongoing cost of the current increased pension contributions which are only about £235 million per year.
Something smells bad to me.
It's in response to a question and answer session on various transport matters posed by The Consumers' Association on the back of this June's Which? magazine.
Q) A £1 levy on air tickets has been proposed to cover people when airlines go bust - why do you oppose it?
A) We don't charge a levy in any other area of commerce in case the company you're dealing with is going to go broke. More importantly, I think companies like British Airways, which are not going to go broke, had the argument - and I think it is a legitimate one - "Why should we make our passengers pay £1 so that some under-financed airline can take our business away?"
Now don't let the thread drift away into debating the £1 levy, but I thought it was worth quoting our very own Transport Minister suggesting that British Airways are not going to go broke.
Yet according to Willy & Co, we are in grave danger of doing so if we don't achieve the fabled 10% operating margin. Talking of which, net debt has reduced by £1.4 billion over the past year (with only an 8.5% operating margin), yet the trustees have stated that they agree that the company can't afford the ongoing cost of the current increased pension contributions which are only about £235 million per year.
Something smells bad to me.
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yet the trustees have stated that they agree that the company can't afford the ongoing cost of the current increased pension contributions which are only about £235 million per year
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There are lots of comments regarding general business here which amazes me how naive some of the comments are.
For example:
10% margins in business is tiny at an operating level compared to companies the size of BA, including many airlines and travel companies.
Management bonus in most airlines are based on improving margins. Revenue and therefore profit sits in the hands of very few managers.
No airline management team I have known (and that is several across different countries and cultures) sees any company benefits in seniority. Companies want to pay a market rate (high or low) and promote the best irrespective of time with the company. Seniority means the new guys are low experience and therefore make this impossible.
Most people have seen there pension go down the hole, including final pension schemes - whats so special about BA pilots.
99% of occupations get promotions and pay rises on merit. Pilots get them on making the grade.
By the way I have an ATPL,before you ask but also have a large amount of business experience.
For example:
10% margins in business is tiny at an operating level compared to companies the size of BA, including many airlines and travel companies.
Management bonus in most airlines are based on improving margins. Revenue and therefore profit sits in the hands of very few managers.
No airline management team I have known (and that is several across different countries and cultures) sees any company benefits in seniority. Companies want to pay a market rate (high or low) and promote the best irrespective of time with the company. Seniority means the new guys are low experience and therefore make this impossible.
Most people have seen there pension go down the hole, including final pension schemes - whats so special about BA pilots.
99% of occupations get promotions and pay rises on merit. Pilots get them on making the grade.
By the way I have an ATPL,before you ask but also have a large amount of business experience.
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a large amount of business experience
BTW the Cambridge dictionary has naive as :
"naive, naïve adjective
too willing to believe that someone is telling the truth, that people's intentions in general are good or that life is simple and fair."
If you were alluding to me then I don't believe that BA management have good intentions toward anything other than their bonus
swedish
I'm not sure where you are coming from with your post, then again I'm only a lowly ATPL with a 70's BSc so forgive my ignorance,.
You are right, a 10% margin is not a lot compared with other industries but that's not my problem, the managers volunteered, just like me, to work in an aviation enviroment. - they /you? knew the norm so what's your point? that I should take a permanent hit in my benefits to allow you to get 20% margin?
.....If you want an easy job with a 20% margin then get a job with a bank and forget the ATPL.
"Most people have seen there pensions go down the hole" - well apart from proving that as a mere pilot my grasp of English is better than your's (hint: it is "their" not "there" ,,,,have you ever written a business paper?) there is no logic in your statement ..just because you claim that the majority have seen their pensions go down the hole does not mean it is right/moral thing to do.
"99% of occupations get promotions and pay rises on merit. Pilots get them by making the grade"....the difference between merit and making the grade being? If I was you I'd go back to the day job and forget management.
Hey, I've just thoiught..you are a manager with an ATPL..you are not Willie Walsh are you?
You are right, a 10% margin is not a lot compared with other industries but that's not my problem, the managers volunteered, just like me, to work in an aviation enviroment. - they /you? knew the norm so what's your point? that I should take a permanent hit in my benefits to allow you to get 20% margin?
.....If you want an easy job with a 20% margin then get a job with a bank and forget the ATPL.
"Most people have seen there pensions go down the hole" - well apart from proving that as a mere pilot my grasp of English is better than your's (hint: it is "their" not "there" ,,,,have you ever written a business paper?) there is no logic in your statement ..just because you claim that the majority have seen their pensions go down the hole does not mean it is right/moral thing to do.
"99% of occupations get promotions and pay rises on merit. Pilots get them by making the grade"....the difference between merit and making the grade being? If I was you I'd go back to the day job and forget management.
Hey, I've just thoiught..you are a manager with an ATPL..you are not Willie Walsh are you?
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Oh, and swedish:
Have you seen the operating margin of Tesco and the like?
Also, a sustained 10% margin at BA is easily sufficient to pay off the entire pension deficit
Overstress
By the way I also have an ATPL before you ask, but also have business experience.
PS: Part of BA's problem is that it fails to attract top-notch management at the higher level. eg: selling 'Go' is widely regarded as the corporate blunder of the decade....
10% margins in business is tiny at an operating level
Also, a sustained 10% margin at BA is easily sufficient to pay off the entire pension deficit
Overstress
By the way I also have an ATPL before you ask, but also have business experience.
PS: Part of BA's problem is that it fails to attract top-notch management at the higher level. eg: selling 'Go' is widely regarded as the corporate blunder of the decade....
Last edited by overstress; 8th Aug 2006 at 22:38.
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swedish said
I tend to agree.
The moment senior directors, and managers suffer the same fate, the position of the pilots will be seriously damaged!
However does Bob Ayling make ends meet on a £1,000,000 pension, after so few years of service?
Just remind me what Rod retired on?
And:
Few more so, on a daily basis than aircraft captains, eh swedish?
Most people have seen there (sic) pension go down the hole, including final pension schemes - whats so special about BA pilots.
The moment senior directors, and managers suffer the same fate, the position of the pilots will be seriously damaged!
However does Bob Ayling make ends meet on a £1,000,000 pension, after so few years of service?
Just remind me what Rod retired on?
And:
Revenue and therefore profit sits in the hands of very few managers.
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Our pilots at BA are top professionals and some are the best in the business. Thread readers should not assume that the minor complaints of a few reflect the major opinions. Like many in UK plc BA staff are unhappy at the pension situation but in the end they will just bite the bullet.
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HZ123 - your mates on the Ramp may be willing to bite the bullet, but if you don't believe the pilots will strike you are living in cloud cuckoo land.
As it stands I will lose more than 40% of my pension. Not going to happen.
Do not believe the management spin that pilots take out more of the pension pot than we put in (lie - no group does) that pilots are leaving NAPS (lie - we are fighting to keep it) or that only pilots stand to suffer from the changes (lie - do you really think anyone will be better off?).
Please visit Befairba.org . They are trying to split us at the moment. We would like your support but we do not need it.
Do they honestly expect me to believe that with a 10% margin BA will be a strong, profitable company, but at 9.2% or 8.9% we will be bankcrupt? In the last 5 years we have paid off at least £5 billion of debt without anything near 10 or even 9%.
As it stands I will lose more than 40% of my pension. Not going to happen.
Do not believe the management spin that pilots take out more of the pension pot than we put in (lie - no group does) that pilots are leaving NAPS (lie - we are fighting to keep it) or that only pilots stand to suffer from the changes (lie - do you really think anyone will be better off?).
Please visit Befairba.org . They are trying to split us at the moment. We would like your support but we do not need it.
Do they honestly expect me to believe that with a 10% margin BA will be a strong, profitable company, but at 9.2% or 8.9% we will be bankcrupt? In the last 5 years we have paid off at least £5 billion of debt without anything near 10 or even 9%.
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Apologies for the English - I'll write in my native Swedish next time and you can pick holes in that was well.
I am not an airline manager, I am a pilot. I just don't like the way things work and I'll be getting out as soon as the mortgage is paid off. I love flying but hate sitting next to the majoirty who are only intestested in how much money they can make / save and don't care about the rest of the team or the company - that doesn't give me a quality of life.
I am not an airline manager, I am a pilot. I just don't like the way things work and I'll be getting out as soon as the mortgage is paid off. I love flying but hate sitting next to the majoirty who are only intestested in how much money they can make / save and don't care about the rest of the team or the company - that doesn't give me a quality of life.
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You can post in Swedish if you like but it won't disguise the fact that you fundamentally misunderstand the position of pilots in BA. In fact it's better that you don't post at all and leave us to defend our pensions.
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Not just BA either.......
It's a fact - ALL airline managements are trying to undermine the professional status that pilots have historically (and justifiably) had. Just look at the charter sector where I work. They would like to see incremental pay scales go and pay rises limited to what the rest of the company gets.
Fine, BUT, no acount is made of the twice annual threat to our existance and livelihood (medicals and sim). Furthermore, there is no acknowledgement that for some, a debt of some £60K put them in the flight deck.
We in the UK are STILL underpaid. Strike?? Yes.......why not. Let's ALL do it!
Fine, BUT, no acount is made of the twice annual threat to our existance and livelihood (medicals and sim). Furthermore, there is no acknowledgement that for some, a debt of some £60K put them in the flight deck.
We in the UK are STILL underpaid. Strike?? Yes.......why not. Let's ALL do it!
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swedish - your English is far superior to that of some of our managers! Good luck - when I pay off my mortgage I'm packing it in as well - just not prepared to let BA mgt steal 40% of my pension.
PS: Thread readers should not assume that HZ123's posting reflects the angry mood of BA NAPS pilots. It doesn't.
PS: Thread readers should not assume that HZ123's posting reflects the angry mood of BA NAPS pilots. It doesn't.
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Surely the answer it to offer individuals the chance to buy the pension out. I haven't looked at the value of the company but a "share for pension" offer would benefit both the staff and the shareholders. What I find morally unacceptable is the suggestion that BA should walk away from its commitment to what is deferred salary.
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Still looking for that first flying job, Hasher, if your profile is anything to go by? "Fly for Food"?
Best of luck.
BA pension strike = now inevitable. Timescale circa October at a guess.
Best of luck.
BA pension strike = now inevitable. Timescale circa October at a guess.