BA pilots 'prepared to strike'?
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Seniority lists are, at least in the UK, are open to a challenge in the courts given the new age discrimination laws i.e. you cannot sack your youngest employees when you are downsizing
A 27 year old pilot could have 6 years seniority and will not be sacked at the expense of a 50 year old pilot who only joined 5 years ago.
Two completely different things.
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BA Pension .
I joined the scheme when I was 18. At that time you just enrolled.You would have been daft to ask why.
It was a damn good scheme and rightly so, as has proved later.
The only choice now is "strike or accept this sort of scheme is a thing to be diluted. Not acceptable.
We are successful airline, our CEO will gamble with this. Let him.
B73
It was a damn good scheme and rightly so, as has proved later.
The only choice now is "strike or accept this sort of scheme is a thing to be diluted. Not acceptable.
We are successful airline, our CEO will gamble with this. Let him.
B73
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Usual mishmash of BA pilot-haters out there, it would seem. I loved the one about motivated pilots being "unnecessary", could have been posted by a BA manager himself!
"Of course motivation is unnecessary we'll just roster them till they drop, then use the Attendance Management Process to fire them!"
BA is looking at a very motivated pilot force - motivated to strike if a pension deal that is in reality just a massive pay cut in thin disguise is imposed by a management "team" who line their pockets incessantly and blatantly whilst robbing ours.
Given the final salary nature of the scheme, the accrued rights mean less to people than you might think, such that threats of; "you'll lose everything so you'd better just be good little elves and go back to the mine and keep breaking rocks", mean a lot less than you might think.
The sheer greed and effrontery of the current flight ops senior managers adds fuel to the fire - we have never been "managed" by such charlatans as these before. They are trawling for a fight and are going to get one.
"Of course motivation is unnecessary we'll just roster them till they drop, then use the Attendance Management Process to fire them!"
BA is looking at a very motivated pilot force - motivated to strike if a pension deal that is in reality just a massive pay cut in thin disguise is imposed by a management "team" who line their pockets incessantly and blatantly whilst robbing ours.
Given the final salary nature of the scheme, the accrued rights mean less to people than you might think, such that threats of; "you'll lose everything so you'd better just be good little elves and go back to the mine and keep breaking rocks", mean a lot less than you might think.
The sheer greed and effrontery of the current flight ops senior managers adds fuel to the fire - we have never been "managed" by such charlatans as these before. They are trawling for a fight and are going to get one.
PPRuNe Person
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According to a very senior manager overheard at a party:
"We'd better sort out this pension issue soon as we're running out of places to hide the money...."
Allegedly.
I'm sure there's no truth in the rumour that BA is paying down aircraft mortgage debt as fast as possible...
"We'd better sort out this pension issue soon as we're running out of places to hide the money...."
Allegedly.
I'm sure there's no truth in the rumour that BA is paying down aircraft mortgage debt as fast as possible...
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Originally Posted by Strepsils
Technically, seniority is nothing to do with age. Last in first out is a well known and accepted way of dealing with forced redundancy.
A 27 year old pilot could have 6 years seniority and will not be sacked at the expense of a 50 year old pilot who only joined 5 years ago.
Two completely different things.
A 27 year old pilot could have 6 years seniority and will not be sacked at the expense of a 50 year old pilot who only joined 5 years ago.
Two completely different things.
Fact reamins the seniority lists protects most pilots from market forces, unlike almost any other profession.
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Spoilt Babies MK II
Just ask the employee,s of some of the firms that have gone out of business in the past few years how safe their pensions were, the answer would be not safe at all.
Regarding my knowledge of the airline business I have worked for BEA & BA for over thirty years & watched the flight crew,s change from WW II professionals to just ordinary workers out to get all they can screw out of management
I don,t blame them, what is annoying they think that they are indispensable, remember the American Air Traffic Controllers or the British miners they had big ideas & caught a cold.
Regarding my knowledge of the airline business I have worked for BEA & BA for over thirty years & watched the flight crew,s change from WW II professionals to just ordinary workers out to get all they can screw out of management
I don,t blame them, what is annoying they think that they are indispensable, remember the American Air Traffic Controllers or the British miners they had big ideas & caught a cold.
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Well J.Don i hope you enjoyed your many years of flying during the "golden years" how many hours per year were you flying back then? i bet wasn't circa 900hrs as it is now. Oh and i trust you are/will be enjoying your nice big cryistalised APS pension.
Regarding you comment about ordinary workers i find that absurd and borderline offensive; i think you will find that it's the other way around. I assume that you are now retired as the present outfit is a far cry what it was in the seventies.
Regarding you comment about ordinary workers i find that absurd and borderline offensive; i think you will find that it's the other way around. I assume that you are now retired as the present outfit is a far cry what it was in the seventies.
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big ideas
3Greens - I don't think he says he was a pilot - just another member of the green-eyed brigade. (Sorry to use the third person, JDon, but you started it - there are plenty of BA pilots posting on this thread, you can address us directly if you like)
The graveyards are full of those who thought they were indispensible, JDon, we in BA don't think that.
But we know we're not quickly replaceable. You don't get many spare -400, 777 type-rated pilots strolling down tha Bath road (except BALPA reps on their way to a meeting
)BA training is busting a gut to get its pilots on the right aircraft for the huge Winter programme they've planned - a short sharp shock would make management take us a little less for granted...
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I have worked for BEA & BA for over thirty years & watched the flight crew,s change from WW II professionals to just ordinary workers out to get all they can screw out of management
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Originally Posted by swedish
Agree on the technicality, but last in first out does not apply unless there is an age spread in line with the remaining workforce. As soon as seniority lists are tested in court you can say goodbye to it being used in redudancy or as a promotion tool. There is a status quo at the moment as it is not in the interests of the pilots and also not in the interest of most airlines to upset the workforce. Ask any employement lawyer and they will say the same for LIFO as for seniority lists.
Granted, I am in the U.S., so I could be wrong about U.K. / European law. But under U.S. age discrimination law, layoffs made according to a seniority system are absolutely NOT a violation of federal age discrimination law, even if it ends up disproportionately impacting people of certain age groups more than others. If layoffs are done according to an established seniority system, that is basically an absolute defense to a charge of age discrimination.
As I said, I am in the U.S., so it might be different in the U.K. However, I did have occassion to research U.K. employment discrimination law at one point in the past few years, and I seem to remember coming across the same concept in U.K. law.
So -- serious question (not trying to be a wise guy) -- is there a case or some source you could cite supporting what you say? I'd be curious to know the current status of the law in the U.K. (If I have time I'll try to dig up my research.)
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Originally Posted by swedish
But they don't really address my point (unless I missed it). I did see a reference to LIFO systems in general potentially being risky, but not within the context of an established seniority system. That might seem like splitting hairs, but at least under the U.S. employment discrimination laws (which tend to have much in common with those in the U.K.), there is a definite difference between making employment decisions based on "age" (= potential illegal discrimination) vs. "seniority" (= no problem).
On the other hand, in some areas the U.K. laws are a bit more employee-friendly, so maybe this will turn out to be one of those areas.
In any case, it seems like these are new laws for the U.K. so some of these contours may have yet to be worked out.
Out of curiosity, if seniority is not to be used in deciding things like pilot redundancies, in your opinion how should the decision be made about whom to let go?
Cheers.
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Whoah guys.
Can we keep this to the BA pension subject?
There is no way BA are looking to make pilots redundant, so this is all totally irrelevant to this subject. Thanks in advance.
Can we keep this to the BA pension subject?
There is no way BA are looking to make pilots redundant, so this is all totally irrelevant to this subject. Thanks in advance.
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The seniority list and the existing Last in First Out Agreement was not used by BA during the break up of Dan Air in 1992. The most senior Captain was made redundant and the most junior first officer with 5 months service was retained in BA. He is now a BA 777 Captain. Anybody that thinks they can rely on fair play with BA senior management is dreaming.
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Originally Posted by fiftyfour
The seniority list and the existing Last in First Out Agreement was not used by BA during the break up of Dan Air in 1992. The most senior Captain was made redundant and the most junior first officer with 5 months service was retained in BA. He is now a BA 777 Captain. Anybody that thinks they can rely on fair play with BA senior management is dreaming.
Out of curiosity, if seniority is not to be used in deciding things like pilot redundancies, in your opinion how should the decision be made about whom to let go?
On the other hand, it is not illegal here, and this is the structure with which we have to live.
I call you back
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Lucifer reading some of your posts you are quick to criticise wannabees who judge our careers or training centres when they obviously have no experience of either. Yet you are quite happy to attack the concept of a seniority list while either obviously not being part of one ( or being at the bottom ).
I wont waste bandwidth explaining why a seniority system is vital to our industry for reasons of safety, promotion, and income protection. Look it up, instead of looking up at it and whinging in ignorance!
Back to the thread. BA pilots had better be more than willing to strike as Mr. Walsh operates a philosophy that means 'if the staff are not ballotting for action then I'm not pushing them hard enough'.
I wont waste bandwidth explaining why a seniority system is vital to our industry for reasons of safety, promotion, and income protection. Look it up, instead of looking up at it and whinging in ignorance!
Back to the thread. BA pilots had better be more than willing to strike as Mr. Walsh operates a philosophy that means 'if the staff are not ballotting for action then I'm not pushing them hard enough'.