Ryanair waiting for line training
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WCF , We do indeed have the choice , I am taking it and I am accepting it , but then guys come on here and berate us for doing it , dragging down T&Cs etc , there is nothing we can do about it
Yes there IS something you can do about it - choose not to accept it!!! After you've accepted it there's nothing you can do about it......... But PLEASE don't expect all the guys who are fighting to retain their T's and C's to fight your fight when it's you and yours that are steadily feckin' it all up!!!
When we attempt to negotiate the next 5 year deal we will be doing so knowing that the company will just turn around and say "well if you don't like it beggar off and make way for Pressman and Carmoisine". Not even sorry if you don't like to hear it but THAT as they say IS THE FACTS!!!
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I have been waiting myself since the end of July, and all I can say is that RYR doesnīt give a s**t about it people. Apart from being totally broke you have to put up with very rude people. I knew myself it wasnīt going to be easy, but unfortunately I didnīt have any othe job offers out of General aviation, and as long as I donīt get my T/R stamped, there isnīt much you can do. This only means that when I finally get through, I will end up caring about the company as much as they cared for me.
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Wing Commander Fowler, At the training establishment were I did the TR the guy (Not Ryanair Staff) showed me the applications of people applying for the TR course.
3,500.
Three Thousand Five hundred. This is the reality. Its fine having your principles with X thousand hours jet time but consider those further down the ladder. If I thought it would work I would have stuck to my principles, and had no job. So the waiting list would have been 3,499. No matter what someone would take my place and that will NEVER change.
Like Cipri said, we haven't even started and we wouldn't pee on them if they were on Fire. They have used up any good will we had. Just gonna build our hours and leave asap.
3,500.
Three Thousand Five hundred. This is the reality. Its fine having your principles with X thousand hours jet time but consider those further down the ladder. If I thought it would work I would have stuck to my principles, and had no job. So the waiting list would have been 3,499. No matter what someone would take my place and that will NEVER change.
Like Cipri said, we haven't even started and we wouldn't pee on them if they were on Fire. They have used up any good will we had. Just gonna build our hours and leave asap.
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Ok guys - reality check time!!! No one of us was BORN with 3000 hrs, we all started somewhere whether it was self funding through Oxford, queen betty's flying clubs or hour building. We then progressed into either proper companies which paid for jet type ratings (and yes they ARE still around but diminishing and you don't need a degree to work out why.....) or worked as instructors or got into the profession at the fundamental grass roots level and learnt our trade plying up and down in Turboprops. The fact that FR, EZ et al sh@ft you guys like they do is BECAUSE THEY CAN!!! Simple as that. The reason they take away our pensions and water and life's blood is BECAUSE THEY CAN!!! We are no different in reality ecxcept when you are "up the ladder" we are more vulnerable as a result of the replacements "further down the ladder" willing to pull the rungs away. Tell you what - you sort yourselves out and we'll do what we can for OUR selves and then we'll only have our respective selves to blame for the mess we respectively end up in ok? Deal? You have the choice - again I say "take it or leave it". We have the same choice and will indeed make that choice. For me, all here is sweet, when it's not it'll be sayonara - I shan't be calling you up to help - comprende?
5 year Pay deal for the established guys IMHO.
5 year Pay deal for the established guys IMHO.
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I don't want to dump on FR pilot employees who are undoubtedly suffering at the moment. But it simply has to be said that there are still a number of "scams" practised by Ryanair that have not been fully identified here - but that does not say that potential applicants have not, in effect, been warned repeatedly.
Neither does it say that there are not more than sufficient warnings here on prune for anyone who wants to listen (try doing a search here using the word "Ryanair" - it would take you about a week to read it all, but many of the threads provide very clear reading and warnings). Every story may not be literally true, but there is a point at which you have to be pretty dumb not to notice certain recurring themes, even on a rumour network.
The reality - which Ryanair counts on - is that there is always somebody who is willing to work for less than somebody else. Remarkably, Ryanair have even managed to employ captains, not to mention co-pilots, on quite low money at a time of pilot shortage. Salaries for permanent (note that) pilot employees continue to drop.
Here is what everybody needs to know: Last year (2004) a number of managers were informed that their pay would reflect the success of their efforts to reduced pilot costs (most definitely including pay). So people, WAKE UP. This means that a pilot who works for nothing is contributing to the management bonus of a very small group of managers. (You know them by their willingness to "deal directly" with you and "negotiate/offer" a deal that turns out to be worse than your colleagues). Any notion that the highly fragmented FR pilot group can hope to avoid the steady erosion of their income and conditions in the short term is living in a world of delusion. (Just after posting, I noted the post immediately above - it provides telling testimony to [a] this fragmentation, and [b] somebody who may also be living in a world of delusion).
The only group giving Ryanair a run for their money are the pilots in Dublin. Had they not fought back even the 3% paid earlier this year to FR pilots based elsewhere would not have been available (to try to persuade the others of the "value" of ERC's! Before some management lackey appears to tell us, yes I know it was not paid to the Dublin pilots.... but I'll think I'd bet they will get it in the end ... ).
Neither does it say that there are not more than sufficient warnings here on prune for anyone who wants to listen (try doing a search here using the word "Ryanair" - it would take you about a week to read it all, but many of the threads provide very clear reading and warnings). Every story may not be literally true, but there is a point at which you have to be pretty dumb not to notice certain recurring themes, even on a rumour network.
The reality - which Ryanair counts on - is that there is always somebody who is willing to work for less than somebody else. Remarkably, Ryanair have even managed to employ captains, not to mention co-pilots, on quite low money at a time of pilot shortage. Salaries for permanent (note that) pilot employees continue to drop.
Here is what everybody needs to know: Last year (2004) a number of managers were informed that their pay would reflect the success of their efforts to reduced pilot costs (most definitely including pay). So people, WAKE UP. This means that a pilot who works for nothing is contributing to the management bonus of a very small group of managers. (You know them by their willingness to "deal directly" with you and "negotiate/offer" a deal that turns out to be worse than your colleagues). Any notion that the highly fragmented FR pilot group can hope to avoid the steady erosion of their income and conditions in the short term is living in a world of delusion. (Just after posting, I noted the post immediately above - it provides telling testimony to [a] this fragmentation, and [b] somebody who may also be living in a world of delusion).
The only group giving Ryanair a run for their money are the pilots in Dublin. Had they not fought back even the 3% paid earlier this year to FR pilots based elsewhere would not have been available (to try to persuade the others of the "value" of ERC's! Before some management lackey appears to tell us, yes I know it was not paid to the Dublin pilots.... but I'll think I'd bet they will get it in the end ... ).
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You new guys should listen to the previous two posts because those boys are speaking the truth. As it appears they have been around the industry a while I would suggest you pay close attention.
Ryan Air has a TERRIBLE record of how it deals with its pilots. Some have stood up and done well while others have just gone elsewhere. You knew what the deal was when you signed the contract so stop whining. I do feel for you but the industry is booming so brighten up.
Someone asked which turbo prop airlines in the UK are hiring. Tell me one thats not and I will give you a prize because they all are. Every single one and they give you an type rating. 300 hour pilots don't really belong in 737's anyways as the natural progression is from turbo's to jets. Do this and you pay nothing.
The boys at Easyjet are raising a stink and me thinks management is going to listen. Young Ryan lads/ladettes should pay close attention.
Rant over.
Ryan Air has a TERRIBLE record of how it deals with its pilots. Some have stood up and done well while others have just gone elsewhere. You knew what the deal was when you signed the contract so stop whining. I do feel for you but the industry is booming so brighten up.
Someone asked which turbo prop airlines in the UK are hiring. Tell me one thats not and I will give you a prize because they all are. Every single one and they give you an type rating. 300 hour pilots don't really belong in 737's anyways as the natural progression is from turbo's to jets. Do this and you pay nothing.
The boys at Easyjet are raising a stink and me thinks management is going to listen. Young Ryan lads/ladettes should pay close attention.
Rant over.
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The simple solution to this argument is - JOIN A UNION! ALL OF YOU!
O'Leary is sitting back laughing at you ripping each other up while he makes a mint off your dumb asses.
With a decent union it would be COMPULSORY for all new recruits to join the union before taking up employment. Then the T&C's of those new employees would be negotiated by the union - and would not be at the current slave labour standard which undermines the whole profession.
This is why O'Leary resists any talk of unions in FR - it sounds the death knell for exploitation.
But I won't hold my breath.
O'Leary is sitting back laughing at you ripping each other up while he makes a mint off your dumb asses.
With a decent union it would be COMPULSORY for all new recruits to join the union before taking up employment. Then the T&C's of those new employees would be negotiated by the union - and would not be at the current slave labour standard which undermines the whole profession.
This is why O'Leary resists any talk of unions in FR - it sounds the death knell for exploitation.
But I won't hold my breath.
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W-C F, there is a possibility ... in one respect ... in which it is conceivable that I may have hinted, alluded or vaguely suggested that I was perhaps not entirely at one with what you had to say. However, having read your contributions in general I have to say that I would not wish to quarrel or enter into a disputation with someone who, in general, seems to me to have Ryanair's measure. (Also, if I had not had that extra whiskey last night I have no doubt that I could recall exactly what my point was and would mount a vigorous defense of my carefully reasoned position).
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Carmoisine
I agree with you. I finished my TR FOUR months ago as well. No info, no pay, no nothing. And NOONE could ever imagine that the conditions were this bad. May I ask where you did your TR?
This should be a warning for people thinking about going to Ryanair. If I new this, I wouldn't have signed the contract. Even if it still is hard to get other jobs with low hours, people must have some dignity.
Let's hope we can finish our training, and go to a company who appreciates our work...
I agree with you. I finished my TR FOUR months ago as well. No info, no pay, no nothing. And NOONE could ever imagine that the conditions were this bad. May I ask where you did your TR?
This should be a warning for people thinking about going to Ryanair. If I new this, I wouldn't have signed the contract. Even if it still is hard to get other jobs with low hours, people must have some dignity.
Let's hope we can finish our training, and go to a company who appreciates our work...
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Avoid Ryan,
No, the delay was never mentioned. It seems to be a new phenomenon. I can't see how its going to get any better either in the medium term.
I wish they would just tell us what is going on.
No, the delay was never mentioned. It seems to be a new phenomenon. I can't see how its going to get any better either in the medium term.
I wish they would just tell us what is going on.
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Gentlemen (and any ladies too), with the greatest of respect this is not a new phenomenon. Like so many things in Ryanair it started slowly and those caught out first have tended to stay quiet as they invariably want a low profile. At the same time the initial stories are denied by either well meaning Ryanair pilots who are unaware of developments, or by management stooges who appear here to assure all and sundry that Ryanair is wonderful.
I have even talked to a pilot who told me, within weeks of joining, that he simply had not believed what was written here on pprune "I thought it had to be exaggeration" says he. In reality he probably heard the propaganda about Ryanair pilots being the best paid in the universe and could see nothing wrong with going for it.
Here's a couple of recent tidbits: the first couple of pilots on basic pay, but with no sector pay have arrived. Secondly, I recently spoke to a 4.5k hours co-pilot with a - mind boggling - basic of Ģ18,000 p.a. He had been persuaded to take this due to the long delays in .... guess what .... line training - he found this to be preferable to debts and worries.
Now, what are the chances that somebody with such experiences are going to arrive here to announce that they have agreed to such conditions? Pretty low I would say. But that does not make it untrue.
I have even talked to a pilot who told me, within weeks of joining, that he simply had not believed what was written here on pprune "I thought it had to be exaggeration" says he. In reality he probably heard the propaganda about Ryanair pilots being the best paid in the universe and could see nothing wrong with going for it.
Here's a couple of recent tidbits: the first couple of pilots on basic pay, but with no sector pay have arrived. Secondly, I recently spoke to a 4.5k hours co-pilot with a - mind boggling - basic of Ģ18,000 p.a. He had been persuaded to take this due to the long delays in .... guess what .... line training - he found this to be preferable to debts and worries.
Now, what are the chances that somebody with such experiences are going to arrive here to announce that they have agreed to such conditions? Pretty low I would say. But that does not make it untrue.
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Delwy,
Yeas its hard to come on here and admit you have been a fool. There are plenty of people as we have seen happy to jump into the warm waters of your own personal nightmare. They really do revel in it.
Its not easy to admit you made a huge mistake. My motivation for doing is it to warn others off making the same huge mistake.
Pressman, There are only three here, I refer you to paragraph one.Trust me: There are an awful lot waiting. I would say anything up to a hundred with a minimum of fifty.
Yeas its hard to come on here and admit you have been a fool. There are plenty of people as we have seen happy to jump into the warm waters of your own personal nightmare. They really do revel in it.
Its not easy to admit you made a huge mistake. My motivation for doing is it to warn others off making the same huge mistake.
Pressman, There are only three here, I refer you to paragraph one.Trust me: There are an awful lot waiting. I would say anything up to a hundred with a minimum of fifty.
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Carmoisine, this willingness to publicise things is a relatively new phenomenon and, for me at least, it is greatly to be welcomed. (Also, you should be congratulated for your honesty and courage). BTW I think your numbers are about right; also I can tell you that some of those very people I know for a fact were given explicit advice not to sign up without clarifying their conditions of employment FIRST.
This Ryanair cycle goes back a few years, in which each successive group of pilot is employed on worse conditions that those who went before. Those who don't suffer thank the gods that they "escaped" while those who suffer note the absence of any support from their colleagues beyond a vaguely sympathetic "that's Ryanair for you".
However, those who feel comfortable will discover that when the pilot shortage is over Ryanair will come after them in the manner tested so successfully in spring of 2004. That will be the day when the whiners will be told that people like you (new, young, poorly paid pilots) are willing to take their jobs for less money. And it would not be a surprise that solidarity towards them would be slow in coming.
There is only one way this will end up, which is with everybody working for buttons and complaining about their colleagues, but not about Ryanair. Depressing stuff.
This Ryanair cycle goes back a few years, in which each successive group of pilot is employed on worse conditions that those who went before. Those who don't suffer thank the gods that they "escaped" while those who suffer note the absence of any support from their colleagues beyond a vaguely sympathetic "that's Ryanair for you".
However, those who feel comfortable will discover that when the pilot shortage is over Ryanair will come after them in the manner tested so successfully in spring of 2004. That will be the day when the whiners will be told that people like you (new, young, poorly paid pilots) are willing to take their jobs for less money. And it would not be a surprise that solidarity towards them would be slow in coming.
There is only one way this will end up, which is with everybody working for buttons and complaining about their colleagues, but not about Ryanair. Depressing stuff.
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I asked lots of questions on interview day even made notes. It never occured to me to ask about this. I had read everything I could on here about the company and there was no mention of this problem.
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I can't remember if it was on here that I first heard about it, but there were certainly German cadets earlier this year who had to make their way from Germany every month at their own expense to keep themselves in the system (I think it was here). Before that, lots of others ... common denominator: no income, lots of expenses. Anyway, at this stage people DO know (and will still join).
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The problem is that everything about Ryan is based on rumours. You cannot trust any information from any source.
Anyway, here are mine:
1: we are app 100 waiting for line training
2: the management does not communicate with us
-no one from the management have contacted me to explain
the situation, and I have not dared to contact them because I have
been told that it may affect the future of my case
3: some of us are able to get ahead of the queu
-one guy on a course after mine has already had three
attempts on the base-check
-another one has started line-training with the rest of the course not
having completed the base check
What the heck is that all about?
Since the thread already has been hijacked, I feel the urge to take a swing at the ones naiv enough to think that guys going for TRSS are to be blamed for the current state of the industry. You obviously have been away from the bottom of the hierarchy so long that you have forgotten all about it. Good for you. As long as we have market forces, the newbies will pay for rating if it will improve their chances of getting work. But, when the pilot demand goes up , then no-one will pay for rating. And you cannot unite a bunch of people, getting rid of TRSS's, with nothing gluing them together (all individuals). And don't ever try to tell another person what is the best sollution in his/her life. There is virtually no other option than RYR for me. 500 app's. No job offers. You get very, VERY desperate after that crap. I signed the contract, having read everything on Pprune, small print on contract, but not one clue whatsoever about the waiting for line training. That is what this thread is about. Period.
Anyway, here are mine:
1: we are app 100 waiting for line training
2: the management does not communicate with us
-no one from the management have contacted me to explain
the situation, and I have not dared to contact them because I have
been told that it may affect the future of my case
3: some of us are able to get ahead of the queu
-one guy on a course after mine has already had three
attempts on the base-check
-another one has started line-training with the rest of the course not
having completed the base check
What the heck is that all about?
Since the thread already has been hijacked, I feel the urge to take a swing at the ones naiv enough to think that guys going for TRSS are to be blamed for the current state of the industry. You obviously have been away from the bottom of the hierarchy so long that you have forgotten all about it. Good for you. As long as we have market forces, the newbies will pay for rating if it will improve their chances of getting work. But, when the pilot demand goes up , then no-one will pay for rating. And you cannot unite a bunch of people, getting rid of TRSS's, with nothing gluing them together (all individuals). And don't ever try to tell another person what is the best sollution in his/her life. There is virtually no other option than RYR for me. 500 app's. No job offers. You get very, VERY desperate after that crap. I signed the contract, having read everything on Pprune, small print on contract, but not one clue whatsoever about the waiting for line training. That is what this thread is about. Period.
Last edited by DJ Mixmaster; 14th Dec 2005 at 20:09.