Ryanair waiting for line training

[BlueVolta]

When I read how things are going with cadets that had invested in a type rating for the 737NG, I am glad that my interview was not successfull in early 2005!
I was not keen enough to be "happy" with a cadet
package... so not suitable for Ryanair!

I didn't had to negociate a loan with my bank, I saved some €€€€, I am not stressed when I will start my line training...

Of course I am not flying now a beautyfull 737-800, unfortnatelly I am just flying a 737 classic now (and money going into bank account!!)

[Boy]

I know loads of pilots who have been using RYR as good as RYR had been using them

SNAM what you describe is not "using" RYR, it is just ... working for them. I guess that you would, using a similar argument, accept that when eventually a first pilot job entails paying Ryanair for the type conversion and then working the first two years without pay that you would take the optimistic view and say "clever use of Ryanair to get a foot on the ladder"!

The trouble is that the ladder on which you would have stepped will by then not have anything like as many steps upwards that you might have hoped for.

[avoidryan]

DJ Mixmaster and Carmoisine

Lots of nice and correct info..As we are in the same boat, there is not much to do than to give other pilots a warning. Things have been bad before with Ryanair, but not THIS bad. Very unfortunate for us..

I have already started to apply for other jobs, even though I doubt the management in Ryanair would not like that. What we will have to do, is what they do: Think about ourselves.

As far as I know, according to the FAR, there is a regulation on a maximum of 60 days between TR and Linetraining. Then the TR is unvalid. Does anyone now if there is a regulation like this in the JAR?

[Carmoisine]

JAR–FCL 1.235 Type and class ratings – Privileges, number and variants

(4) The type rating course, including theoretical kowledge, shall be completed within the 6 months preceding the skill test.


So what happens when the rating is not completed withing the six months as some people are headed towards?

[avoidryan]

Carmoisine and Dj Mixmaster

I have done some research in the JAR-OPS. It states:

[(c) Following completion of a Zero Flight Time
Conversion Course a pilot shall:
(1) Commence line flying under
supervision within 15 days; and
(2) Conduct his initial four take-offs and
landing in the aeroplane under the supervision of a
TRI (A) occupying a pilot’s seat.]

There must be some regulations for us guys doing a FULL TR as well.. I mean..The guys doing a conversion course knows how line operations work..We are the ones that needs continuity most!

Let me know if you find something more..

[Superpilot]

Pardon my sense of humour but I just found this pic and could not resist.

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

The politics of failure.....episode 42.

is that they are not listening to what is being said

Come on Dim Repa, tell the truth. What you really mean is that people are not listening to you, isn’t that right? In case all these eager young pilots missed what sort of person you really are, here it is again. The truth as to what Dim Repa and those like him really think of your struggles to create a career for yourselves.

i personally have no sympathy for you guys who buy your rating.you line up like a bunch of morons and part with your money,in turn screwing up the market.you do a chit chat with some knob from hr and then struggle through a 737 200 sim check.then most importantly sign the cheque.you come in with 200 hours and believe that you have earned the right to sit in the right seat.you cannot expect the respect of your peers and let the company ride roughshod all over you.you are no more than slaves and that is how you shall be treated

Warms the cockles of the heart, doesn’t it. He who on the one hand advocates union membership, the ultimate statement of fraternal solidarity, and on the other, berates, humiliates and demeans anyone else having the effrontery to take responsibility for themselves and get on with it. Unbelievable! Why don’t you tell all the nice people about your personal struggle to become an airline pilot, Dim Repa? Tell everyone how hard it was for you to gravitate to the right hand seat on a Boeing 737–800 that you currently occupy, raking in as you do, nearly £4000 after tax every month? I’m sure all these keen young things would like to know why it is, exactly, that they should continue to flip burgers in a truly heroic display of solidarity, so that you and your ilk can benefit from being held in somehow higher esteem by your employer? Share it with an eager world, would you?

To those of you struggling with temporary inconvenience at the beginning of your careers, I commend you wholeheartedly. Although I am a Ryanair Captain now and have been for years, the beginning of my career was anything but easy. There are no accidental airline pilots. The one prevailing truth you should bear in mind as you wade through page after page of the terminally aggrieved ninnies who bitch and moan here on Pprune, is this. The thing that separates success from failure is determination, patience and constant effort. Make no mistake, you have achieved an inspirational beginning to your careers, and no matter where our magnificent enterprise takes you, you can have few finer starts to it than in a brand new, EFIS Boeing, amassing hours at a rate of 900 per year. Measured against that, is having a little extra patience while our training department increases its capacity so much to ask for? Performance, my young friends, is a reflection of attitude.

[haughtney1]

Leo..whilst it pains me to say it, I have to agree with your last paragraph. Although having said that, grims comments are spot-on, and Ryainair to their shareholders eternal benefit continue to ride rough over the aspirations of many crews.

One more thing Leo....do you have a parrot on your shoulder? cos your so one eyed you've gotta be wearing an eye patch most of the time

[Carmoisine]

Damn, when I have Leo fighting my cause I know I have made a REALLY big mistake. Doesn't get much worse then that.

is having a little extra patience while our training department increases its capacity so much to ask for?

They don't have a training department, they have a bunch of monkeys F##$ing a football from what I have seen. They couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery.

[essexboy]

Perhaps Leo you could reassure these guys by telling them when they will start training.

[avoidryan]

The JAR-OPS 1.945 states clearly how training shall be done. 15 days is the maximum between the TR course and line flying under supervision! Period!

I don't know how EMA Training can justify scheduling us once a while for some touch'n go's in the simulator, and still be within these regulations?? OK..If they do it ONCE..Alright..But for 5 months??

I am sure the guys down at the JAA in The Netherlands were not thinking about this tricks when they wrote the regulation..And I am sure they would like to know about it..Then probably EMA Training would be a little more helpful..

[the grim repa]

hi leo,
must be so great to be a CAPTAIN.even more so when you consider that there are no ACCIDENTAL AIRLINE PILOTS.how was it,GRAVITATING to the left hand seat of that shiny new boeing 737-800.must have been a relief after that UNEASY START to your career and all that PATIENCE,DETERMINATION and CONSTANT EFFORT.well i commend you WHOLEHEARTEDLY and hope this MAGNIFICENT ENTERPRISE takes you into the ever expanding "training" department and you can give us a real PERFORMANCE.remember it is all a REFLECTION OF ATTITUDE.

the collins 2006 thesaurus is out,i will sling you a copy for christmas.no hard feelings about the ass kicking coming your way.NOTHING PERSONAL.

[DJ Mixmaster]

I have read through the JAR-OPS 1.945, and mine might be out-of-date, but I can't find anything about the 15 day limit, and just to point it out: this paragraph is for conversion course. Not full typerating course. I checked it up with my authorities which confirms my understanding of it; There is no time limit between end of TR end commencement of linetraining. If it did, what about all of those funding their own TR without any job offer...?
But they told me that the basecheck/circuits is regarded as part of LST, in the sence that the mentioned time limit of 6 months from start of TR to LST is applicable-we need to have completed the circuits before the 6 months have elapsed.

[CamelhAir]

Why don't you explain to us Leo how soon all these newbies, suffering a "temporary inconvenience" at the start of their careers will earn the alledged £4000 net per month? Lets keep it honest and talk about when it will actually happen and not when the management say it will, shall we?
As a so-called FR captain, maybe it's you, not Grim Repa, who should be revealing what YOU think of the new cadets. You're happy to sit there and earn what you say is £10,000 net, whilst the reality of the new cadets pay is that it's barely enough to buy food. And then you tell them to be thankful. Warms the cockles of the heart alright

[avoidryan]

DJ Mixmaster

JAR-OPS 1.945 Conversion training and
checking

(2) A flight crew member completes an
operator’s conversion course before commencing
unsupervised line flying:
(i) When changing to an aeroplane
for which a NEW TYPE or class rating is
required; or
(ii) When changing operator;

JAR-OPS 1.950 Differences training and
Familiarisation training

(1) Differences training which requires
additional knowledge and training on an
appropriate training device or the aeroplane;
(i) When operating another variant
of an aeroplane of the same type or another
type of the same class currently operated; or
(ii) When changing equipment
and/or procedures on types or variants
currently operated;

The way I see it, is that we go under the conversion course paragraph. The guys that change from e.g a classic to a NG goes under the other paragraph.

It makes sense that the 15 days rules apply to us as well. If have sent an email to my authorities as well to clarify this..Will keep you posted..

[DJ Mixmaster]

avoidryan: you've got mail

[jimbaba]

Hi All, this is my first posting on the Prune Network. I interviewed for the Brookfield contract up at EMA recently and am writing this message from my home in the U.S. I'm a 14,000 hour pilot with most of it in 737's and most of it in the left seat. I have about 2,500 hrs command time in 737-700's and just quit my U.S. job in October so I'm still current. It's all U.S. experience, and I have never even looked at the study material for the JAA conversion -- my "other full time job" for six months if I take the contract, which is in on my desk awaiting signature. My primary aims are probably quite different from most of yours: I'm single, early 40's, really love visiting Europe, and actually wouldn't mind living out of my suitcase for a couple of years, get my JAA lic., see lots of new places, then come back to my ranch in California. I know I'll be working like a dog, but my question out to you all is: does this seem like a reasonable plan, given my motivations? Open to all responses.

Cheers.

[delwy]

jimbaba, ... if Ryanair is your target you would have no hope of guaranteeing anything.

In general terms, the main problem you currently have is that you will have a series of assumptions based on U.S. experience that do not translate beyond the borders of the U.S. so you are likely to "assume" certain things that will turn out to be incorrect. LOTs of research required.

Ryanair has not been particularly successful in attracting U.S. pilots, most of whom seem to have been able to spot their funny ways. Reading this thread, alone, should alert you to the need for caution. If you are in ALPA I suggest you get in contact with them as I heard one of their people speak about Ryanair in a very informed manner a few months ago.

[hazehoe]

jimbaba, i think you might be in a position where you don't have to do the 14 JAA ATPLwrittens "A minimum of 3,000 hours as pilot of public transport aircraft over 30,000 kgs MTWA on scheduled international or similar routes, a minimum of 1,500 hours of which must have been as Pilot-in-Command."
I think you might want to check this with the CAA,i stand to be corrected.
I believe they should take this 'backdoor' out,but if these are the rules,good luck.

[snaga]

hazehoe, I think you meant that he needs to check it with the IAA? There should be no difference, but Ryanair are keen that the IAA be used for licence issue purposes. I have forgotten what they said in a memo ... something like "the only Authority that knows how to interpret the JARs appropriately". (Which is the dumber, thinking this or putting it in writing?!).