An Honest & Uncensored Debate About Jet2
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Norman Stanley you are so right. To all employees - get out while you can! That's what I did. As a former F27 Captain I was shocked to witness some of the scenes described earlier. Indeed I have been the subject of PM's wrath on more than one occassion. A previous topic now removed asked if there was a flight safety issue - draw your own conclusions of course! To Thunor - I hope you do have a plan B and good luck. For my part working for this outfit has been a major factor in getting out of this dreadful business.
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The thing that amases me the most is that some people complain about not being involved in what is happening in the company and then Norman is complaining about the "morning prayers".... This was in my view the best internal company communications I have come along in all my career. Yes PM might come over overbearing but in the morning meeting, which he most of the time did not attend because he is/was on the road, there was interaction between all parties about what was going on. The only thing that always amassed me was the fact that most people did not say anything during the meeting and only where commenting and moaning when it was over!
Another amazing thing was that as an FO I liked it a lot but my LHS was generaly not impressed. As a Captain they need not be subjected to these earthly things........they knew best themselves
PM is the most energetic guy in the industry, but he is also the most approach able I have come ever since! The fact that 90% of the staff have less energy and less knowledge must hurt. But don't blame it on the guy but on yourselves.
Another amazing thing was that as an FO I liked it a lot but my LHS was generaly not impressed. As a Captain they need not be subjected to these earthly things........they knew best themselves
PM is the most energetic guy in the industry, but he is also the most approach able I have come ever since! The fact that 90% of the staff have less energy and less knowledge must hurt. But don't blame it on the guy but on yourselves.
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Norman Stanley, are you implying that the fatal F27 crash was the company's fault or the other incidents because I will correct your jaded view (sorry you lost your job but some of us faught to stay with the company in another capacity). We all it was wrong. But these incidents were proved to be factors from outside the airline and the fatal accident was very much crew error, read the AAIB report or AS invistigation into its loading!.
We all know it's hard work and we are undermanned but there is light at the end of the tunnel.
As for PM doing the morning meeting that must have been 6 or 7 years ago long before Jet2.
Paying for type ratings? look at Ryanair, Easy, etc and tell me they don't.
The answer to it all is what i have been told in previous jobs.......... if you don't like it LEAVE!.
There are a lot of good proffesional people in Jet2 and Channex and it is a joy to work with them.
We all know it's hard work and we are undermanned but there is light at the end of the tunnel.
As for PM doing the morning meeting that must have been 6 or 7 years ago long before Jet2.
Paying for type ratings? look at Ryanair, Easy, etc and tell me they don't.
The answer to it all is what i have been told in previous jobs.......... if you don't like it LEAVE!.
There are a lot of good proffesional people in Jet2 and Channex and it is a joy to work with them.
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Stories I have heard:
-flt int is open all the time so you can hear the LBA trng capt chewing his gum for the 2 hr flt down to BCn
-An ex-capt told me that he heard cabin crew use service int to discuss just what they were going to say in their report on the Capt after the flt.Who do these people think they are?If somebody did that to me I make a PA"Sorry,ladies and gents,I get out here...cabin crew are in charge,they'll be taking you to xyz"
-Cabin chief thinks he/she is in charge of the flt and is encouraged in this belief wholeheartedly by company.
-CEO is very weird-carries clipboard onto flts and makes notes-hangs around during crew briefing and makes suggestions as to how to behave.
-FO's cant fly-call 400' on a no FD departure and look non-plussed when you say nothing-dont know what cws is,in fact never seen it used-"whats that?what does it do?'-some fool told them you cant use V/S,that its somehow dangerous-if they dont see the magical VNAV PTH annunciation,they think its dangerous,outside SOP,must be unsafe-take speedbrake when the FMC says drag reqd-no thought just blind procedure-they get panicky going into busy places like AMS where they ask for high ROD and tight turns-if you take flap 5,it never occurs to thm to maintain 220 to get the higher rod-why?because somebody tell them its unsafe,against SOP!cant fly visual approaches manually -only ILS approaches using FD and AP-again all encouraged by trng-no wonder the contract guys make up their own thing-
-these same FO's that can barely fly a F27,let alone a 737,are nice and quick to sneak reports into the CP down at Bournemouth-this CP then has the nasty habit of calling said capt down for an interview BUT NOT the little sneak who made the report-if youve got something to say,say it out loud and clear and to someones face-
-F27 Capt,now 737 copilot with grand total of 50 hrs says to capt on 6 mile final "You know your gear isnt down?"-never heard of noise abate app?NO..they intercept GS at 3k,gear down flap 15 at 10 miles just like sim-open your mouth when you know what you're saying,otherwise button it tight.
dedicated to the contract pilots of the world.
-flt int is open all the time so you can hear the LBA trng capt chewing his gum for the 2 hr flt down to BCn
-An ex-capt told me that he heard cabin crew use service int to discuss just what they were going to say in their report on the Capt after the flt.Who do these people think they are?If somebody did that to me I make a PA"Sorry,ladies and gents,I get out here...cabin crew are in charge,they'll be taking you to xyz"
-Cabin chief thinks he/she is in charge of the flt and is encouraged in this belief wholeheartedly by company.
-CEO is very weird-carries clipboard onto flts and makes notes-hangs around during crew briefing and makes suggestions as to how to behave.
-FO's cant fly-call 400' on a no FD departure and look non-plussed when you say nothing-dont know what cws is,in fact never seen it used-"whats that?what does it do?'-some fool told them you cant use V/S,that its somehow dangerous-if they dont see the magical VNAV PTH annunciation,they think its dangerous,outside SOP,must be unsafe-take speedbrake when the FMC says drag reqd-no thought just blind procedure-they get panicky going into busy places like AMS where they ask for high ROD and tight turns-if you take flap 5,it never occurs to thm to maintain 220 to get the higher rod-why?because somebody tell them its unsafe,against SOP!cant fly visual approaches manually -only ILS approaches using FD and AP-again all encouraged by trng-no wonder the contract guys make up their own thing-
-these same FO's that can barely fly a F27,let alone a 737,are nice and quick to sneak reports into the CP down at Bournemouth-this CP then has the nasty habit of calling said capt down for an interview BUT NOT the little sneak who made the report-if youve got something to say,say it out loud and clear and to someones face-
-F27 Capt,now 737 copilot with grand total of 50 hrs says to capt on 6 mile final "You know your gear isnt down?"-never heard of noise abate app?NO..they intercept GS at 3k,gear down flap 15 at 10 miles just like sim-open your mouth when you know what you're saying,otherwise button it tight.
dedicated to the contract pilots of the world.
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Contract captain, oh contract captain.
How come they always know better, how come they are always the onces who have problems with "incompetent FOs".
Contract captain, oh contract captain just relax a little and follow this (not the last two) companies SOPs
How come they always know better, how come they are always the onces who have problems with "incompetent FOs".
Contract captain, oh contract captain just relax a little and follow this (not the last two) companies SOPs
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-Cabin chief thinks he/she is in charge of the flt and is encouraged in this belief wholeheartedly by company.
Whats all that about? I don't get you? As an SCCM I have never once operated a flight with this belief. Bit of a gross genrelisation one thinks.
-An ex-capt told me that he heard cabin crew use service int to discuss just what they were going to say in their report on the Capt after the flt.Who do these people think they are?If somebody did that to me I make a PA"Sorry,ladies and gents,I get out here...cabin crew are in charge,they'll be taking you to xyz"
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Shuperstar Loadie
Just to correct any misunderstanding - I did not 'lose my job' but left when I had a better job to go to. Channex were good to me personally but nonetheless the safety issues were very real. In addition to the accidents I alluded to, there was at least one more after I left involving another F27. I am extremely familiar with both the facts and personalities of the fatal F27 crash and I am slightly wary of entering into a debate about it - therefore I won't! As a little aside, in that moment you saw the magnificent best of PM - he was fantastic to the families. It is nonetheless fact that Channex suffered a series of accidents including the fatal one with the F27 which is not the case with other equivalent airlines.
A discussion over safety in any airline is a bit like an argument over some of the Asian or African airlines with high accident rates. Inevitably hackles are raised by some of the professional and contientious people who work for them when they feel their credibility is questioned. There are actually many similarities between these companies and the Channex operation. Poor pay and conditions, old aircraft with a wide variety of non-standard fits, a few 'maverick' captains with a lot of non-standard practices, non-rigid SOPs and interference in flight operations from commercially-driven bosses are the backbone of airline bad practice. All of these features applied to Channex when I was there but only current Jet2 crews can say if that is the case now.
It is only when you have worked for different companies that you can tell if there was a 'safety culture' in place at a particular organisation. The problem is that if the 'safety' card is played by disgruntled crews then the management often get stroppy rather than address the genuine issues. I can only tell you my own experience - there was no effective 'safety culture' in Channex when I was there when compared to the companies I have worked for more recently. You can be offended by that - it is nonetheless the truth.
Therein lies the problem - you are faced with a sharp, hard-hitting, no-compromise CEO who you either love or hate. What has made Jet2 an apparent success is the drive of PM. Like all such people he can be the best of the best and worst of the worst. You see the crux of the problem here - some people loved 'morning prayers' and others loathed them! That is the nature of the beast. His style inspires both unswerving loyalty and undying loathing depending on who you speak to. My point is that if Channex are to avoid another accident then they must put in place a 'safety culture' which by definition higher management outside the Flt Ops world cannot interfere in. It seems unlikely to me that given the personalities involved that will happen.
Just to correct any misunderstanding - I did not 'lose my job' but left when I had a better job to go to. Channex were good to me personally but nonetheless the safety issues were very real. In addition to the accidents I alluded to, there was at least one more after I left involving another F27. I am extremely familiar with both the facts and personalities of the fatal F27 crash and I am slightly wary of entering into a debate about it - therefore I won't! As a little aside, in that moment you saw the magnificent best of PM - he was fantastic to the families. It is nonetheless fact that Channex suffered a series of accidents including the fatal one with the F27 which is not the case with other equivalent airlines.
A discussion over safety in any airline is a bit like an argument over some of the Asian or African airlines with high accident rates. Inevitably hackles are raised by some of the professional and contientious people who work for them when they feel their credibility is questioned. There are actually many similarities between these companies and the Channex operation. Poor pay and conditions, old aircraft with a wide variety of non-standard fits, a few 'maverick' captains with a lot of non-standard practices, non-rigid SOPs and interference in flight operations from commercially-driven bosses are the backbone of airline bad practice. All of these features applied to Channex when I was there but only current Jet2 crews can say if that is the case now.
It is only when you have worked for different companies that you can tell if there was a 'safety culture' in place at a particular organisation. The problem is that if the 'safety' card is played by disgruntled crews then the management often get stroppy rather than address the genuine issues. I can only tell you my own experience - there was no effective 'safety culture' in Channex when I was there when compared to the companies I have worked for more recently. You can be offended by that - it is nonetheless the truth.
Therein lies the problem - you are faced with a sharp, hard-hitting, no-compromise CEO who you either love or hate. What has made Jet2 an apparent success is the drive of PM. Like all such people he can be the best of the best and worst of the worst. You see the crux of the problem here - some people loved 'morning prayers' and others loathed them! That is the nature of the beast. His style inspires both unswerving loyalty and undying loathing depending on who you speak to. My point is that if Channex are to avoid another accident then they must put in place a 'safety culture' which by definition higher management outside the Flt Ops world cannot interfere in. It seems unlikely to me that given the personalities involved that will happen.
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You don't think I should consider joining Jet2 then?
...and I guess BALPA recognition isn't on the horizon just at the mo either?
...and I guess BALPA recognition isn't on the horizon just at the mo either?
Last edited by screw fix diret; 1st Sep 2005 at 15:02.
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Topkapi - you have some issues - worrying ones for someone in your position. Part of your role as the LHS driver should be to pass on your experience to your colleague in the RHS (line trainer or not). If inexperience leads to bizarre comments or incorrect flying technique on the part of your COLLEAGUE why not try explaining that to them, rather than berating their stupidity as your comments suggest you do?
Maybe then you will find yourself less on the receiving end of these 'sneaky reports'.
Maybe then you will find yourself less on the receiving end of these 'sneaky reports'.
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Trainer too 2
As long as they are one way my friend. Just try to put forward an opposing view to that of the management & watch how the poor soul will have his/her head ripped off if PM is in attendance. Go on, try it, I dare you. Say something completely controversial like, "I don't think it's right that we are still using out of date ILS approach plates for VCE with obsolete ILS frequencies & idents on them."
Topkapi737
You have issues buddy. Most of the FOs that I am flying with are excellent. If they lack experience then they should be coached by you not slated for lack of knowledge. It sounds to me as though you are having difficulties in flying to Channex SOPs, garbage as they are, they should be adhered to or else it can all go wrong very quickly. I'm sorry but you sound like the very worst type of contractor out there, one who gets the rest of us a real bad name. If your spoken English is as weak as your written English then may I be so bold as to suggest that you possibly have communication 'issues' with your crew & that could be the root cause of your problems with your FO.
Well my friend. At least three FOs did report a certain captain to the flight management team at BOH. They had serious concerns regarding the man's aptitude & ability. In at least two of the cases is was the FOs who saved Jet2 from potentially disasterous situations. What did Channex do? Well, one of the FOs was told by the MAN base manager that BOH believed that they were conducting a whispering campaign against this particular captain so they moved the captain to LBA! I believe that he lasted two days before nearly skipping off the runway & then they finally listened: they dismissed him. It took another near disaster with this pilot before they took action. Had this company listened to these FOs then we may not (and until the full inquiry findings are published I stress may not) have witnessed the dreadful scenes from Greece on our tv screens the other week. Jet2 were warned & sat & did sweet FA about him until he nearly cost them an aircraft. They are short of Captains & so long as they have a person with a licence in the LHS then that's ok, even if he or she is downright dangerous.
The best internal company communictions
Topkapi737
You have issues buddy. Most of the FOs that I am flying with are excellent. If they lack experience then they should be coached by you not slated for lack of knowledge. It sounds to me as though you are having difficulties in flying to Channex SOPs, garbage as they are, they should be adhered to or else it can all go wrong very quickly. I'm sorry but you sound like the very worst type of contractor out there, one who gets the rest of us a real bad name. If your spoken English is as weak as your written English then may I be so bold as to suggest that you possibly have communication 'issues' with your crew & that could be the root cause of your problems with your FO.
The same FOs...are nice & quick to sneak reports into the CP at Bournemouth
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ok,so my engleeeesh not so good...contract pilots have a tough time so spare a thought guys..we see on average about 20 different types of sop during a single career...enough to confuse the shi* out of anyone...what we do is prioritieze..airmanship,judgement,skill...no contract pilot I know of goes against sop for the hell of it...they know when a situation calls for improvasation...what we dont like is some smart alec freshface giving us a lecture for 2 hrs on "we dont do that here" and then when hes PF,he totally screws up...its called "bare-faced cheek" in english,someone told me...and then they make report but they dont tell CP full story..they say Capt too fast,not making good call-outs,or just like another thread he didnt make one hold before approach-but they dont know..lot of airspace has no 250 k requirement or atc ask the impossible and you must trade speed for alt-visual approach,NO CALL OUTS,except 500 incapac call-but still they make calls approaching minima-I keep quiet and laugh to myself-
why are these younger guys being told only about flying using FMC and AP?why nobody tell them about pitch/thrust,raw data,recovering from above glide due bad atc-I dont blame these co-pilots..no,not at all-its the trainers,they dont give correct priorities...
crm is not so tangible you know...many different forms..one mans crm is anothers posion..good crm only possible when both pilots are experienced on type...if cockpit gradent steep,you cannot have same crm as for shallow gradent..it just dont work
no offence to jet2 -they try to make a little money in a difficult business-no offence guys
why are these younger guys being told only about flying using FMC and AP?why nobody tell them about pitch/thrust,raw data,recovering from above glide due bad atc-I dont blame these co-pilots..no,not at all-its the trainers,they dont give correct priorities...
crm is not so tangible you know...many different forms..one mans crm is anothers posion..good crm only possible when both pilots are experienced on type...if cockpit gradent steep,you cannot have same crm as for shallow gradent..it just dont work
no offence to jet2 -they try to make a little money in a difficult business-no offence guys
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"good crm only possible when both pilots are experienced on type"
Another incorrect statement.
If your are the Captain, you take what resources are available to you and manage them; CRM is short for Cockpit Resource Managment in case your not sure.
If the First Officer is new on type it's up to you to create the working relationship; you make allowances for his lack of knowledge and experience on type whilst encouraging him to speak out and prevent you crashing the aeroplane.
Another incorrect statement.
If your are the Captain, you take what resources are available to you and manage them; CRM is short for Cockpit Resource Managment in case your not sure.
If the First Officer is new on type it's up to you to create the working relationship; you make allowances for his lack of knowledge and experience on type whilst encouraging him to speak out and prevent you crashing the aeroplane.
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APU restrictons
I had the misfortune to be positioned on jet 2 the other day when the OAT was 25c . The inside of the aircraft was unbearable.If they are waiting for the OAT to be reported as 31c , which they may well miss , the cabin temp will be pushing 40c before you know it with 148 pax.
Despite my protests , nothing was done. One of these days they will have a medically - weak pax on board , and Health and Safety will get involved. It is also extremely dodgy for flight crew to get too hot and expect to operate normally shortly thereafter.
The CAA should also have a word.
Despite my protests , nothing was done. One of these days they will have a medically - weak pax on board , and Health and Safety will get involved. It is also extremely dodgy for flight crew to get too hot and expect to operate normally shortly thereafter.
The CAA should also have a word.
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The CAA should have more than a word with this outfit. They have real issues with an almost total disregard for flight safety if it interferes with their profits in any way.
Their treatment of the flight crews is the worst that I have ever heard of. Their culture is to listen to the word of just two men. Opinion is frowned upon. It wouldn't be so bad if those two men knew what they were talking about but they don't.
Their treatment of the flight crews is the worst that I have ever heard of. Their culture is to listen to the word of just two men. Opinion is frowned upon. It wouldn't be so bad if those two men knew what they were talking about but they don't.
I Have Control
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F27 Guernsey accident
Check out the findings and recommendations from the report. Certain cost-saving aspects like no autopilots needed to be remedied, and ditto for the absence of heaters. These were contributory to the fatigue of the crew, who in the end made a fatal mistake.
I agree with NSF that no company safety culture existed at Channex, and was happy to leave when I did.
Which is not to say that there were no good trainers who taught us how to fly, to operate commercially, and to stay safe. There were, but from the top there was no emphasis whatsoever on safety. It seems like the situation has continued.
I agree with NSF that no company safety culture existed at Channex, and was happy to leave when I did.
Which is not to say that there were no good trainers who taught us how to fly, to operate commercially, and to stay safe. There were, but from the top there was no emphasis whatsoever on safety. It seems like the situation has continued.
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Regarding the 737 fleet.
How many are the "ancient" classics with the old engine instrumentation (steam gauge) like on G-CELF?
How many are the "newer" classics with the digital engine instrumentation?
How many are the "ancient" classics with the old engine instrumentation (steam gauge) like on G-CELF?
How many are the "newer" classics with the digital engine instrumentation?
Last edited by Jetavia; 4th Sep 2005 at 15:38.
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I honestly feel sorry for you guys that have to put up with this sort of disgraceful wreckless attitude from your employer and an ignorant prat for a boss, who has a total disregard for safety.
Re-write your Cv's my friends and get out! None of you should have to put of with the conditions you are working with.
Surely even Ezy or FR would be better..?
Re-write your Cv's my friends and get out! None of you should have to put of with the conditions you are working with.
Surely even Ezy or FR would be better..?