Age 60 Battle vs ALPA
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Welcome to the World of the Past!
If you look into it I think you will find that the major airlines in the States are taken to be a critical transportation resource whose disruption would seriously impact the national economy. This is why its labour contracts are covered by this (rather obscure to most people) railway act.
It used to be, when times were good, that no one paid much attention to the anti-strike provisions of the act; there was plenty of money to spread around in the happy days of regulation. Now that austerity is the order of the day it has become plain what a 'devil's bargain' has been struck for labour. What was once protection is now oppression.
For an example of what can happen when the rank and file ignore the law in the quest for what 'feels right', just look at the PATCO strike in the States. The air traffic controllers got rid of a union head who advised a 'softly-softly' approach to put a real fire-breather in. He proceeded to take a very popular, confrontational approach to negotiations with the government. Then they finally went on strike, basically daring the government to fire them, which would cripple the US ATC system. Of course Ronald Reagan sacked them all, which crippled the US ATC system but that was okay, because he was able to blame all of that on the stiking controllers whom the White House spin machine made out to be a mob of bomb-throwing anarchists rather than US citizens trying to exercise their right to sell their services for a fair price. That got the attention of some of the other unions, I think.
Of course one could argue that in the world of today there are no more critical airlines. Who would miss one of the majors if they were to go to the wall? And a wildcat strike could be quickly neutralised by other carriers mobilising to fill any gaps in the network. For instance, look at how little missed Eastern was, once it was gone, and yet it was once so large that it was unimaginable that it could be allowed to fail or that it could be so easily replaced. Well, that was then and this is now.
It must be hellishly complicated to work some of these merger deals. I am sure that the beancounters are sat there at a very long table thinking, 'Now remember that the interests of the line pilots come first!' Not.
I remember chatting with a regional airline pilot once when he was trying to explain how he had ended up towards the bottom of the seniority pile after a merger. It all sounded rather depressing to me and was probably one reason why I returned to working in Africa rather than remaining in the States.
I can well imagine someone needing to work as long as possible after getting the short end of the stick, when all that careful planning suddenly goes out the window thanks to the magic of the marketplace. That could well focus the mind on this age restriction.
It used to be, when times were good, that no one paid much attention to the anti-strike provisions of the act; there was plenty of money to spread around in the happy days of regulation. Now that austerity is the order of the day it has become plain what a 'devil's bargain' has been struck for labour. What was once protection is now oppression.
For an example of what can happen when the rank and file ignore the law in the quest for what 'feels right', just look at the PATCO strike in the States. The air traffic controllers got rid of a union head who advised a 'softly-softly' approach to put a real fire-breather in. He proceeded to take a very popular, confrontational approach to negotiations with the government. Then they finally went on strike, basically daring the government to fire them, which would cripple the US ATC system. Of course Ronald Reagan sacked them all, which crippled the US ATC system but that was okay, because he was able to blame all of that on the stiking controllers whom the White House spin machine made out to be a mob of bomb-throwing anarchists rather than US citizens trying to exercise their right to sell their services for a fair price. That got the attention of some of the other unions, I think.
Of course one could argue that in the world of today there are no more critical airlines. Who would miss one of the majors if they were to go to the wall? And a wildcat strike could be quickly neutralised by other carriers mobilising to fill any gaps in the network. For instance, look at how little missed Eastern was, once it was gone, and yet it was once so large that it was unimaginable that it could be allowed to fail or that it could be so easily replaced. Well, that was then and this is now.
It must be hellishly complicated to work some of these merger deals. I am sure that the beancounters are sat there at a very long table thinking, 'Now remember that the interests of the line pilots come first!' Not.
I remember chatting with a regional airline pilot once when he was trying to explain how he had ended up towards the bottom of the seniority pile after a merger. It all sounded rather depressing to me and was probably one reason why I returned to working in Africa rather than remaining in the States.
I can well imagine someone needing to work as long as possible after getting the short end of the stick, when all that careful planning suddenly goes out the window thanks to the magic of the marketplace. That could well focus the mind on this age restriction.
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LHR Rain,
Thanks for the clarification on the United pension. It sounds as though their MEC did the same as the Usair MEC. Is it wrong for the pilots to not be able to vote on their own pension? You Bet it is. Unfortunately that is the ALPA way. Do not ever think that ALPA representation is some form of utopia, or that the MEC has your best interest at heart. They did very little for me over the years. Now if I would have had a medical problem or a violation from the FAA, ALPA is the best thing going for solving those problems. Think of the dues as insurance payments and nothing more.
As to your second question, yes you must sit and take it. You can not ignore a court order, period. I know it does not seem right to you, nor to the rest of us for that matter. I did not believe it was possible to take my retirement until it happened, and I am sure that most of those who have gone through this will say the same. We all remember the Maxwell case in the UK and assumed that it could no longer happen. But it can and does.
What does your United friend say about recourse? Are they trying to get the pension reinstated? I wish them well as it be very diffacult.
One last thought. After many years in this business, I have come to the conclusion that "infinate wisdom, ALPA, and MEC" should never be in the same paragraph! Oil and water at it's best!
Take care, and thanks for the clarifacation.
330 man
Thanks for the clarification on the United pension. It sounds as though their MEC did the same as the Usair MEC. Is it wrong for the pilots to not be able to vote on their own pension? You Bet it is. Unfortunately that is the ALPA way. Do not ever think that ALPA representation is some form of utopia, or that the MEC has your best interest at heart. They did very little for me over the years. Now if I would have had a medical problem or a violation from the FAA, ALPA is the best thing going for solving those problems. Think of the dues as insurance payments and nothing more.
As to your second question, yes you must sit and take it. You can not ignore a court order, period. I know it does not seem right to you, nor to the rest of us for that matter. I did not believe it was possible to take my retirement until it happened, and I am sure that most of those who have gone through this will say the same. We all remember the Maxwell case in the UK and assumed that it could no longer happen. But it can and does.
What does your United friend say about recourse? Are they trying to get the pension reinstated? I wish them well as it be very diffacult.
One last thought. After many years in this business, I have come to the conclusion that "infinate wisdom, ALPA, and MEC" should never be in the same paragraph! Oil and water at it's best!
Take care, and thanks for the clarifacation.
330 man
LHR Rain,
I'll come to a deal with you. I won't work past 55 if you refuse your command until you've done as many hours and as many years as I did to get mine!!
In the meantime you're entitled to an opinion, as is everyone else.
I'll come to a deal with you. I won't work past 55 if you refuse your command until you've done as many hours and as many years as I did to get mine!!
In the meantime you're entitled to an opinion, as is everyone else.
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330 Man,
What a nice tone and change from you. Since you set the parameters I will do the same. I wish you well. We often disagree but I of course do not wish you ill will at all. I also hope that the merger with your two airlines goes well and you can return at your choosing.
I don't know what the MEC is but I assume that is what runs your union. It sounds like they better keep a real low profile around the ramp office, especially with all the pilots that are allowed guns now in the states. I know I would be very bitter if some scumbag took my money and I had no say over it.
Busy B
Why should I have to wait any longer than the seniority list allows me? So we should all be miserable just because you think you had a crappy career? We all knew the rules when we signed up.
What a nice tone and change from you. Since you set the parameters I will do the same. I wish you well. We often disagree but I of course do not wish you ill will at all. I also hope that the merger with your two airlines goes well and you can return at your choosing.
I don't know what the MEC is but I assume that is what runs your union. It sounds like they better keep a real low profile around the ramp office, especially with all the pilots that are allowed guns now in the states. I know I would be very bitter if some scumbag took my money and I had no say over it.
Busy B
Why should I have to wait any longer than the seniority list allows me? So we should all be miserable just because you think you had a crappy career? We all knew the rules when we signed up.
Thats OK LHR Rain,
As i said you're entitled to your opinion.
Mine is that if you'd joined a better airline you wouldn't be so worked up. Maybe, you couldn't get into a better one?
As i said you're entitled to your opinion.
Mine is that if you'd joined a better airline you wouldn't be so worked up. Maybe, you couldn't get into a better one?
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Busy B
It sounds to me that you are the one who is either with a low paying airline or pissed away all the money you made from working for a real airline. Whatever the case it is time for you to go. You had your fun now it is time to make way for a new generation of pilots. As the saying goes the torch has been passed to a new generation.
A member of the British elite airlines is not good enough for you? What is your story that you feel that you must keep flying?
It sounds to me that you are the one who is either with a low paying airline or pissed away all the money you made from working for a real airline. Whatever the case it is time for you to go. You had your fun now it is time to make way for a new generation of pilots. As the saying goes the torch has been passed to a new generation.
A member of the British elite airlines is not good enough for you? What is your story that you feel that you must keep flying?
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Oh really LHR Rain!! Ever heard of the word ‘DISCRIMINATION”? I imagine that you come from a very well organized and efficient airline were promotion is at the expense of experience and the right to work! Maybe, I am wrong and you don't work anymore?
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'The torch has been passed to a new generation...' Puh-leeze! Do you know where you can put that torch, sonny boy? And then you can call yourself a sconce!
What is a word that rhymes with sconce? I am thinking of one riiight now. Answers on a postcard, please, to the old folk's home.
I rather wish I had squandered all my money because then, at least, I wouldn't have to worry about it. As it is, it seems to be like trying to gather up spilt drops of mercury. Hence my cruel and thoughtless attempt to mess up the whole delicately-balanced structure of the aviation bizness by continuing to infest a left seat somewhere, anywhere.
In the world of the future they should just take me out and shoot me and then harvest whatever organs are still viable but we are not there just yet. It's coming, I know but just bear with me for another seven years, please. It is this addiction to cold, hard cash that I have, plus the need for speed... Mach .6, ah!
What is a word that rhymes with sconce? I am thinking of one riiight now. Answers on a postcard, please, to the old folk's home.
I rather wish I had squandered all my money because then, at least, I wouldn't have to worry about it. As it is, it seems to be like trying to gather up spilt drops of mercury. Hence my cruel and thoughtless attempt to mess up the whole delicately-balanced structure of the aviation bizness by continuing to infest a left seat somewhere, anywhere.
In the world of the future they should just take me out and shoot me and then harvest whatever organs are still viable but we are not there just yet. It's coming, I know but just bear with me for another seven years, please. It is this addiction to cold, hard cash that I have, plus the need for speed... Mach .6, ah!
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Yes I have heard of the word Discrimination and discrimination is a good thing especially in the world of aviation. As I metioned before discrimination is what allows you to take two medicals a year as well as two check rides a year. Discriminating used to be a good thing, not racial discrimination but I am sure that you have heard the phrase "you have discriminating taste." What do you do when you go to a grocery store; you pick through the best produce and leave the rest for someone else. The bad produce never gets picked, that is disrimination!
Before you start with how bad I must be I take the same two medicals and check rides a year and I am still working. Again you knew the rules when you signed up, don't change them now because you want to pad your retirment!
Before you start with how bad I must be I take the same two medicals and check rides a year and I am still working. Again you knew the rules when you signed up, don't change them now because you want to pad your retirment!
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LHR Rain
I fear you suffer from 'fuzzy logic'.
It is not a case of individuals 'padding retirements' for goodness sake. Many of those trying to extend their working lives are out of money - period...... through no fault of their own! but due to mismanaged company finances and related world events that have conspired to trash their retirement plans.
I have been reading your postings. You seem to be a hard unforgiving individual? I truly hope you don't have to go through what some close friends have had to endure after a lifetime of faithful support to their employer.
I fear you suffer from 'fuzzy logic'.
It is not a case of individuals 'padding retirements' for goodness sake. Many of those trying to extend their working lives are out of money - period...... through no fault of their own! but due to mismanaged company finances and related world events that have conspired to trash their retirement plans.
I have been reading your postings. You seem to be a hard unforgiving individual? I truly hope you don't have to go through what some close friends have had to endure after a lifetime of faithful support to their employer.
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It's rather easy to be 'hard' when it comes to the troubles of others. Most of the folks who aspire to hardness end up screaming like wounded faggots (and here I am merely quoting that great, unacknowledged American author, William S. Burroughs, himself of that persuasion) when themselves meeting a little trouble in life.
I would bet that General Queseda, Rtd, probably spoke of that original decision to impose an age limit as 'hard'. You know, in the way that sacking some poor soul with a wife and three kids is 'hard'.
I would assume that one such as this LHR Rain has in mind as fallback Plan A simply to move into management, for which he would seem to be amply qualified. All those hard decisions come easy when it just makes things hard for others, I imagine. There is an even more popular saying than that one about the torch, namely, 'Look out for Number One!' that may rule such a mind.
Just curious of course, but just how old are you, LHR Rain? I am almost 58, of course but you are out of your teens, I assume? I just want to get a fuller picture of you than your postings so far have offered, since you seem to be a rather unique personality. I hope you don't take my question as impertinent, unless you prize impertinence. It is a rather youthful thing, impertinance, like a squirt of fresh-squeezed lemon juice in the eye, hmmm?
I would bet that General Queseda, Rtd, probably spoke of that original decision to impose an age limit as 'hard'. You know, in the way that sacking some poor soul with a wife and three kids is 'hard'.
I would assume that one such as this LHR Rain has in mind as fallback Plan A simply to move into management, for which he would seem to be amply qualified. All those hard decisions come easy when it just makes things hard for others, I imagine. There is an even more popular saying than that one about the torch, namely, 'Look out for Number One!' that may rule such a mind.
Just curious of course, but just how old are you, LHR Rain? I am almost 58, of course but you are out of your teens, I assume? I just want to get a fuller picture of you than your postings so far have offered, since you seem to be a rather unique personality. I hope you don't take my question as impertinent, unless you prize impertinence. It is a rather youthful thing, impertinance, like a squirt of fresh-squeezed lemon juice in the eye, hmmm?
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LHR Rain:
Now that I know you understand the meaning of the word ‘discrimination’! Might I also inform you that in most European countries and in the USA it is illegal to discriminate on the bases of gender, race, religion and age. So this ‘cocked’ up idea that you have in saying, that when I signed up, I knew the age limit, is a bit obscure. Why, because the limitations stipulated are only valid in a labor agreement and do not overrule the law of the land. So, how is it that we are to think that an agreement with an employer overrules the law of a land? Lets be honest the age limitation is set, in most of the labor agreements that I know of, only to facilitate and accelerate the promotion on the seniority list. And, of course, to be able to formulate the contributions for the pension plan to which, the employer and employee contribute and which have been meticulously calculated to the last month and hour. Does this make it legal or otherwise? The JAR says that we are allowed to fly RH or left up to the age of 65yrs. In my opinion it should be up to the individual to able to choose if fit medically and technically, that is. And not be told what to do with his life, which in most cases does not bear on choice but on circumstances! Some like to knit, sail, garden or cook. Good for them! Others like to fly and because they have to work!
Now that I know you understand the meaning of the word ‘discrimination’! Might I also inform you that in most European countries and in the USA it is illegal to discriminate on the bases of gender, race, religion and age. So this ‘cocked’ up idea that you have in saying, that when I signed up, I knew the age limit, is a bit obscure. Why, because the limitations stipulated are only valid in a labor agreement and do not overrule the law of the land. So, how is it that we are to think that an agreement with an employer overrules the law of a land? Lets be honest the age limitation is set, in most of the labor agreements that I know of, only to facilitate and accelerate the promotion on the seniority list. And, of course, to be able to formulate the contributions for the pension plan to which, the employer and employee contribute and which have been meticulously calculated to the last month and hour. Does this make it legal or otherwise? The JAR says that we are allowed to fly RH or left up to the age of 65yrs. In my opinion it should be up to the individual to able to choose if fit medically and technically, that is. And not be told what to do with his life, which in most cases does not bear on choice but on circumstances! Some like to knit, sail, garden or cook. Good for them! Others like to fly and because they have to work!
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Age 60 Fight is old news
My dad (NAL) and godfather (EAL) may have been the first to fight the age 60 retirement. They started in 1967 to try to overturn the good-ole-boys deal that FAA Administrator Quesada made with President C.R. Smith of American.
The origins of age 60 came about because C.R. Smith wanted to get rid of senior Captains that annoyed him. So the age 60 was cooked up and the rest is history.
After Dad and my Godfather (we'll call him M) failed with any chance of making a difference with this bureaucratic government rule, they adopted a different tack.
M cooked up the idea of changing his birth records to beat the age 60 retirement. Since many born back in the early part of the 20th Century did not have birth certificates, the only birth record was in the family Bible. M presented his "Family Bible" to the FAA requesting that they correct their records to show his "correct" birth date. Once the government records were corrected, EAL was presented with the "correct" birth date. which got M a few extra years flying after age 60. We all had a good laugh about this at the time.
Dad unhappily took his medicine and left at age 60. I rode the J/S on his retirement flight and he had tears in his eyes landing in Miami (LHR-MIA).
I was in on the last of the "good" flying the airlines enjoyed. Propellers went to Prop-Jets and then jets (EAL). In addition to age 60, government encroachment and inept airline management wiped out the fun I recall of the early years. Today I see it as increasingly work under a microscope, which cannot be fun. My copilots are now senior Captains. I have watched the changes today in the airline industry and have to wonder if Dad and M, were they alive today, would want to fight age 60? I took early retirement to pursue a different avenue, commercial real estate investment. Today I own and have the choice, in my hangar 50 feet behind my home, of a Staggerwing, Stearman, or Twin Comanche to go flying. God's mercy and real estate investment enabled this for me, not EAL.
My airline pilot sons have followed my advice and now as their airline (DAL) goes under, the have each invested in outside businesses for which they can exist without DAL.
Dad well told me and I counsel each of you reading this post. Don't live like a rich airline pilot, go invest your money outside the airlines. Don't wait for someone else to decide your destiny for you. ALPA nor PBGC nor your airline is going to do best for you personally.
Steve McDonald
Eastern Airlines (ret)
The origins of age 60 came about because C.R. Smith wanted to get rid of senior Captains that annoyed him. So the age 60 was cooked up and the rest is history.
After Dad and my Godfather (we'll call him M) failed with any chance of making a difference with this bureaucratic government rule, they adopted a different tack.
M cooked up the idea of changing his birth records to beat the age 60 retirement. Since many born back in the early part of the 20th Century did not have birth certificates, the only birth record was in the family Bible. M presented his "Family Bible" to the FAA requesting that they correct their records to show his "correct" birth date. Once the government records were corrected, EAL was presented with the "correct" birth date. which got M a few extra years flying after age 60. We all had a good laugh about this at the time.
Dad unhappily took his medicine and left at age 60. I rode the J/S on his retirement flight and he had tears in his eyes landing in Miami (LHR-MIA).
I was in on the last of the "good" flying the airlines enjoyed. Propellers went to Prop-Jets and then jets (EAL). In addition to age 60, government encroachment and inept airline management wiped out the fun I recall of the early years. Today I see it as increasingly work under a microscope, which cannot be fun. My copilots are now senior Captains. I have watched the changes today in the airline industry and have to wonder if Dad and M, were they alive today, would want to fight age 60? I took early retirement to pursue a different avenue, commercial real estate investment. Today I own and have the choice, in my hangar 50 feet behind my home, of a Staggerwing, Stearman, or Twin Comanche to go flying. God's mercy and real estate investment enabled this for me, not EAL.
My airline pilot sons have followed my advice and now as their airline (DAL) goes under, the have each invested in outside businesses for which they can exist without DAL.
Dad well told me and I counsel each of you reading this post. Don't live like a rich airline pilot, go invest your money outside the airlines. Don't wait for someone else to decide your destiny for you. ALPA nor PBGC nor your airline is going to do best for you personally.
Steve McDonald
Eastern Airlines (ret)
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A mandatory retirement age of 60 for Supreme Court Justices would see changes pronto......
As any fair-minded observer would agree, the only reasons for mandatory retirement would be failure to meet medical fitness and technical competence - in any profession.
As any fair-minded observer would agree, the only reasons for mandatory retirement would be failure to meet medical fitness and technical competence - in any profession.
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This Age 60 rule, if repealed, will have enormous consequences for any pilot who is not a senior captain. The ramifications will be worldwide, not solely felt in the U.S.. Many non U.S. carriers base their retirement rules on what other countries determine, because if the pilot cannot fly into the airspace, he is not able to perform his job for the company.
Much of the Pacific is U.S. airspace. Singapore, India, France, Indonesia and many other nations do not allow pilots over the age of 60 to command airliners in their airspace.
Whilst understanding the financial woes of the U.S. industry, I would say to those supporting any change that it is purely for selfish reasons, just as those fighting against it are similarly inclined.
All U.S. industry has been artificially supported by ridiculous Chapter 11 legislation that undermines the basic principles of business. If the business is a dead dog, it dies. Only Chapter 11 allows you to keep the dog on life support almost endlessly. Unless Airlines are allowed to fail, and Australia has seen a few, real market economics never play a hand.
Linking financially crippled retirement plans to the over 60 debate shows what this is truly about. MONEY!
Pilots, with their seniority provisions, become the most selfish of all people when they enter in to the airline arena. Seniority causes this. If the supporters of age 60 removal wish to seek a change on the basis of fairness, are they also willing to seek a change to 1960's type work practices like seniority? NO WAY!
Why? Because they've done their time is the most common answer. Well guess what, those junior to you have also done their time in allowing you to have your benefits up until your retirement, and not challenging the system. But now you want to change the rules up the top, and the bottom can go screw yourselves.
Can't you understand that those people are obviously going to feel aggrieved?
When the older pilot fraternity, who are invariably senior, learn that the next generation are not like their parents and prone to waiting patiently for their “Time in the Sun”, there may be progress. Generational change will drive major changes in workplace agreements. What seems important to older pilots is seen as just a rort by younger pilots. Why? Because the younger generation can see the pace of change in the world. They understand the requirement to change with it and adapt new practices. The older generation want to hang on to the old ideals that they were bought up with. That’s normal.
But unless there is flexibility given on both sides this issue will continue to divide the pilot fraternity worldwide as it does today.
Has any U.S. congressman asked any major Australian Airline how many pilots over the age of 60 they have gracefully retired due to standards issues? Again, the pace of change and the ability to adapt flows through to every part of what we do, and the current flurry of activity in our arena is almost unprecedented.
So, don’t hide behind medical arguments etc. Come out and tell the truth. For the older guys it is about money. If it was a love of flying etc. they would bid back to the right hand seat. For the younger guys it is about being forced to wait longer for promotion and all the issues attached to that.
Find an answer to that addresses both issues and the problem goes away. That’s what should be focused on, but therein lays the eternal problem. No one wants to do the work.
Much of the Pacific is U.S. airspace. Singapore, India, France, Indonesia and many other nations do not allow pilots over the age of 60 to command airliners in their airspace.
Whilst understanding the financial woes of the U.S. industry, I would say to those supporting any change that it is purely for selfish reasons, just as those fighting against it are similarly inclined.
All U.S. industry has been artificially supported by ridiculous Chapter 11 legislation that undermines the basic principles of business. If the business is a dead dog, it dies. Only Chapter 11 allows you to keep the dog on life support almost endlessly. Unless Airlines are allowed to fail, and Australia has seen a few, real market economics never play a hand.
Linking financially crippled retirement plans to the over 60 debate shows what this is truly about. MONEY!
Pilots, with their seniority provisions, become the most selfish of all people when they enter in to the airline arena. Seniority causes this. If the supporters of age 60 removal wish to seek a change on the basis of fairness, are they also willing to seek a change to 1960's type work practices like seniority? NO WAY!
Why? Because they've done their time is the most common answer. Well guess what, those junior to you have also done their time in allowing you to have your benefits up until your retirement, and not challenging the system. But now you want to change the rules up the top, and the bottom can go screw yourselves.
Can't you understand that those people are obviously going to feel aggrieved?
When the older pilot fraternity, who are invariably senior, learn that the next generation are not like their parents and prone to waiting patiently for their “Time in the Sun”, there may be progress. Generational change will drive major changes in workplace agreements. What seems important to older pilots is seen as just a rort by younger pilots. Why? Because the younger generation can see the pace of change in the world. They understand the requirement to change with it and adapt new practices. The older generation want to hang on to the old ideals that they were bought up with. That’s normal.
But unless there is flexibility given on both sides this issue will continue to divide the pilot fraternity worldwide as it does today.
Has any U.S. congressman asked any major Australian Airline how many pilots over the age of 60 they have gracefully retired due to standards issues? Again, the pace of change and the ability to adapt flows through to every part of what we do, and the current flurry of activity in our arena is almost unprecedented.
So, don’t hide behind medical arguments etc. Come out and tell the truth. For the older guys it is about money. If it was a love of flying etc. they would bid back to the right hand seat. For the younger guys it is about being forced to wait longer for promotion and all the issues attached to that.
Find an answer to that addresses both issues and the problem goes away. That’s what should be focused on, but therein lays the eternal problem. No one wants to do the work.
Good gosh now. 
The ignorance and assumptions being paraded here, by a few people outside the US (or some locals), concerning pay at almost all of the majors or some regionals is baffling ( Delta pilots are receiving about half of what they were, and Northwests pilots will soon end up with their pay at about 2/3 what it was a year ago-and they never received a previous big raise, as with United and Delta, except for a few percent cost of living). The "freight dogs" are doing pretty well at UPS and FEDEX, possibly Airborne and DHL. As far as I know, FEDEX and UPS have never laid pilots off. But again, these are not passenger carriers. Has anyone already reminded Pprune-Land about the best-paid 737 pilots, possibly in the world? Who might they be? Their management was apparently light-years in IQ above those with the rest of the US passenger industry. They even (years ago) allowed their union members to receive stock at good prices! The fact that Delta pilots must retire by age 60 (no FE seats to fly), as with any other US Part 121 carriers, still chops a huge lump sum from Delta's cash when all pilots are justifiably concerned and go 2-3 years early. This will help push the company into Chapter 11.
I rarely ever use such undiplomatic language on Pprune, but there is no other way to express my surprise at the gross mis-information regarding what is happening over here.
As for ALPA being a flying club, let's remind the thousands of pilots who lost their jobs in the last few years. Or those who are senior and following years of hard work and service, dedicated to passenger safety, comfort and attempting to operate in all types of weather, despite the conflicts of an unreasonable schedule, created by company nerds, and now lose most of their retirement. The conflict between them and the many thousands who are laid-off is very difficult. As for ironic situations, how about one of our FOs, who, along with a small fraction of furloughed pilots, was recalled in December, and his father ha$ done well, working for EXXon marketing...he might get laid-off again...record profits + huge congressional tax breaks.
Sure, the concept of working after age 60 is a complex problem for calculating any retirment benefits, even if a large fraction of retirement money is possible for some. Let's also remind the many ALPA "Flying Club" pilots flying regioanl Embraer and CRJs etc, especially the FOs, about how lucky they are to be paid little above US minimum wage, (possibly stuck in the right seat for several years, with a few more dollars per month, each year) other than some medical and dental benefits-do they not still pay the difference from their own pockets? Their companies, in general, refuse to fund any retirement for them, despite negotiating with ALPA to settle a contract. A "Flying Club" pilot who has a wife and about two children often qualifies for govt. food stamps. A First Officer told our newsparer about that and his company told him that he would be terminated with any more such remarks to the media.
I'm for any reasonable idea to get furloughed pilots off the streets (dumptrucks included).
How about safety? The FAA repeatedly chants its mantra about safety requiring no more flights after you become 60 years old (despite letting you fly 100 "hard hours the previous month, with only 8 hours total "rest" each night, between engine shutdown and push-back ... ).
What airliner accident has been caused by a pilot due to his age?
Well, its off to "UbiSoft" Land, where we can fly aerobatic fighters or attack planes and watch cannon shells destroy enemy aircraft engines and wings over the Pacific or Eastern Front (IL-2 etc).
.....
The ignorance and assumptions being paraded here, by a few people outside the US (or some locals), concerning pay at almost all of the majors or some regionals is baffling ( Delta pilots are receiving about half of what they were, and Northwests pilots will soon end up with their pay at about 2/3 what it was a year ago-and they never received a previous big raise, as with United and Delta, except for a few percent cost of living). The "freight dogs" are doing pretty well at UPS and FEDEX, possibly Airborne and DHL. As far as I know, FEDEX and UPS have never laid pilots off. But again, these are not passenger carriers. Has anyone already reminded Pprune-Land about the best-paid 737 pilots, possibly in the world? Who might they be? Their management was apparently light-years in IQ above those with the rest of the US passenger industry. They even (years ago) allowed their union members to receive stock at good prices! The fact that Delta pilots must retire by age 60 (no FE seats to fly), as with any other US Part 121 carriers, still chops a huge lump sum from Delta's cash when all pilots are justifiably concerned and go 2-3 years early. This will help push the company into Chapter 11.
I rarely ever use such undiplomatic language on Pprune, but there is no other way to express my surprise at the gross mis-information regarding what is happening over here.
As for ALPA being a flying club, let's remind the thousands of pilots who lost their jobs in the last few years. Or those who are senior and following years of hard work and service, dedicated to passenger safety, comfort and attempting to operate in all types of weather, despite the conflicts of an unreasonable schedule, created by company nerds, and now lose most of their retirement. The conflict between them and the many thousands who are laid-off is very difficult. As for ironic situations, how about one of our FOs, who, along with a small fraction of furloughed pilots, was recalled in December, and his father ha$ done well, working for EXXon marketing...he might get laid-off again...record profits + huge congressional tax breaks.
Sure, the concept of working after age 60 is a complex problem for calculating any retirment benefits, even if a large fraction of retirement money is possible for some. Let's also remind the many ALPA "Flying Club" pilots flying regioanl Embraer and CRJs etc, especially the FOs, about how lucky they are to be paid little above US minimum wage, (possibly stuck in the right seat for several years, with a few more dollars per month, each year) other than some medical and dental benefits-do they not still pay the difference from their own pockets? Their companies, in general, refuse to fund any retirement for them, despite negotiating with ALPA to settle a contract. A "Flying Club" pilot who has a wife and about two children often qualifies for govt. food stamps. A First Officer told our newsparer about that and his company told him that he would be terminated with any more such remarks to the media.
I'm for any reasonable idea to get furloughed pilots off the streets (dumptrucks included).
How about safety? The FAA repeatedly chants its mantra about safety requiring no more flights after you become 60 years old (despite letting you fly 100 "hard hours the previous month, with only 8 hours total "rest" each night, between engine shutdown and push-back ... ).
What airliner accident has been caused by a pilot due to his age?
Well, its off to "UbiSoft" Land, where we can fly aerobatic fighters or attack planes and watch cannon shells destroy enemy aircraft engines and wings over the Pacific or Eastern Front (IL-2 etc).
.....
Last edited by Ignition Override; 14th Sep 2005 at 04:49.
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It's about age discrimination, stupid!
Never mind if one is rich or poor, still happily married after 30 years or three times divorced, fat or skinny, black or white, straight or gay... or in this case, young or old, my quarrel is with a discriminatory practice (forced retirement at 60 for pilots) that is out of step with today's 'best practice.'
I would like to see a level playing field where the retirement age is either raised to the more usual 65 years that applies to 'most people' or else replaced by 'on condition'. If you strip away all the overheated rhetoric about promotion to command, the state of the airlines' pension funds, etcera, etc., this is the core issue and the argument against it is that it is discrimination in the negative sense of the word (not some 'bus driver' squeezing avocados in Sainsbury's), something generally considered to be a 'bad thing'.
Here it is somehow acceptable for a variety of reasons which just do not stand up to examination. It is not such a central issue as, say, civil rights for 'negroes' was, but there too was a case where it simply suited various powerful interests to ignore a case of injustice. Every so often it comes up, such as when the hero of that DC-10 crash was forced to retire just months after proving himself a really exceptional airman, but then it fades from view again. Well, it's just greedy old pilots who should all be rich anyway. And some of you guys support such a childish approach to this issue?
I would like to see a level playing field where the retirement age is either raised to the more usual 65 years that applies to 'most people' or else replaced by 'on condition'. If you strip away all the overheated rhetoric about promotion to command, the state of the airlines' pension funds, etcera, etc., this is the core issue and the argument against it is that it is discrimination in the negative sense of the word (not some 'bus driver' squeezing avocados in Sainsbury's), something generally considered to be a 'bad thing'.
Here it is somehow acceptable for a variety of reasons which just do not stand up to examination. It is not such a central issue as, say, civil rights for 'negroes' was, but there too was a case where it simply suited various powerful interests to ignore a case of injustice. Every so often it comes up, such as when the hero of that DC-10 crash was forced to retire just months after proving himself a really exceptional airman, but then it fades from view again. Well, it's just greedy old pilots who should all be rich anyway. And some of you guys support such a childish approach to this issue?
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Ah.
So now we know that it’s about discrimination.
If that is the case, why haven't discriminatory systems like datal seniority been attacked so vehemently by this group of pilots now so concerned about age 60?
Why should two people who joined within 18 months of each other not have exactly the same opportunities over a 30yr career?
Is it only discrimination when it doesn't work to your advantage?
Smacks of hypocrisy!
So now we know that it’s about discrimination.
If that is the case, why haven't discriminatory systems like datal seniority been attacked so vehemently by this group of pilots now so concerned about age 60?
Why should two people who joined within 18 months of each other not have exactly the same opportunities over a 30yr career?
Is it only discrimination when it doesn't work to your advantage?
Smacks of hypocrisy!