Latest Orange Hair-brained scheme
I can't believe I have just read this in relation to captains authorised in the RHS operating as PNF.
How precious can you be?
For goodness sake it's only a matter of feet away. The perspective is not that different. The switches are all in the same place and it is the same aircraft.
Next you'll be saying that it's too different to be safe to drive an english car on the continent of europe, or even, god forbid, a hire car with the gearstick on the other side.
partially trained and uncurrent pilots
For goodness sake it's only a matter of feet away. The perspective is not that different. The switches are all in the same place and it is the same aircraft.
Next you'll be saying that it's too different to be safe to drive an english car on the continent of europe, or even, god forbid, a hire car with the gearstick on the other side.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Max Angle, beardy, Gary Lager
Are you happy then? As if we should just accept anything and everything the stupid management throw at us?
Are you defending, accepting, welcoming this unsafe situation?
Take day 6 after a week of bad weather, slots delays, and the rest. Are any of you seriously suggesting that you are SAFE in the RHS? Having spent 5 minutes in the sim in the RHS I kept on hitting my arm on the side continuously and that was just trying to find the throttles.
Given an emergency, factor for age and tiredness you've got to be kidding.
I'm with Colonel Klink!
Are you happy then? As if we should just accept anything and everything the stupid management throw at us?
Are you defending, accepting, welcoming this unsafe situation?
Take day 6 after a week of bad weather, slots delays, and the rest. Are any of you seriously suggesting that you are SAFE in the RHS? Having spent 5 minutes in the sim in the RHS I kept on hitting my arm on the side continuously and that was just trying to find the throttles.
Given an emergency, factor for age and tiredness you've got to be kidding.
I'm with Colonel Klink!
The switches are all in the same place and it is the same aircraft
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 1,266
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yep, happy.
Happy with my ability to operate to the standard of a good FO and PNF in the RHS.
I am intrigued as to what those opponents of this policy perceive the main problem to be - I was under the impression most were concerned about the CRM aspect of 2 Captains flying together, with attendant "Is he going to do something? Should I say something?" problems that come with a shallow command gradient across the flight deck.
Is finding the relevant switches etc. a serious problem from the other seat? I'm sure most of us always take the time to locate the correct switch/pb before selection during normal operation which ever seat we are operating from - and rarely have I ever needed to select something so fast that I couldn't spare the extra second or two it takes to do it from the other side.
As for 'unsafe' operation: puh-lease. When all us Captains sat in the LHS for the first time (probably in the sim on our command courses), did we crash the first few approaches of takeoffs we flew? I doubt it.
Guys who have a problem with this policy seem to fall into three main categories here:
1) those who have spent so long in the LHS they are geniuinely underconfident of their ability to do the FO's job properly again - in which case their vast experience should go some way to assist them in locating the SOPs in the Flying Manual before a duty, and in applying good CRM principles during the duty day.
2) those who see it as an affront to their superiority over their RHS/FO colleagues. A spell in the RHS is probably long overdue for these tw@ts.
3) those who are new to type so command who have temporarily limited capacity compared to their previous position - I suggest they explain this to their fellow four-striped colleague and ask them to sit in the RHS for the day, allowing the 'junior' chap the opportunity to operate from an environment which is more familiar to them.
As I'm not a line trainer I can't act as PF from the RHS during normal operations - we only do the EFATO check in the sim to cater for the worst case scenario of PF/Capt incapacitation on TO.
Not at all, but equally I will not just reject everything the 'stupid' management throw at 'us' without looking at the situation objectively.
Happy with my ability to operate to the standard of a good FO and PNF in the RHS.
I am intrigued as to what those opponents of this policy perceive the main problem to be - I was under the impression most were concerned about the CRM aspect of 2 Captains flying together, with attendant "Is he going to do something? Should I say something?" problems that come with a shallow command gradient across the flight deck.
Is finding the relevant switches etc. a serious problem from the other seat? I'm sure most of us always take the time to locate the correct switch/pb before selection during normal operation which ever seat we are operating from - and rarely have I ever needed to select something so fast that I couldn't spare the extra second or two it takes to do it from the other side.
As for 'unsafe' operation: puh-lease. When all us Captains sat in the LHS for the first time (probably in the sim on our command courses), did we crash the first few approaches of takeoffs we flew? I doubt it.
Guys who have a problem with this policy seem to fall into three main categories here:
1) those who have spent so long in the LHS they are geniuinely underconfident of their ability to do the FO's job properly again - in which case their vast experience should go some way to assist them in locating the SOPs in the Flying Manual before a duty, and in applying good CRM principles during the duty day.
2) those who see it as an affront to their superiority over their RHS/FO colleagues. A spell in the RHS is probably long overdue for these tw@ts.
3) those who are new to type so command who have temporarily limited capacity compared to their previous position - I suggest they explain this to their fellow four-striped colleague and ask them to sit in the RHS for the day, allowing the 'junior' chap the opportunity to operate from an environment which is more familiar to them.
As I'm not a line trainer I can't act as PF from the RHS during normal operations - we only do the EFATO check in the sim to cater for the worst case scenario of PF/Capt incapacitation on TO.
As if we should just accept anything and everything the stupid management throw at us?
Last edited by Gary Lager; 20th Aug 2005 at 08:54.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
skyclamp
Given 5/2/5/4 you won't be flying on day 6, you'll be doing SEPs or non FDP stuff.
I have to say I'm no fan of this proposal but, overall, I think folks are making far too much of it.
4 sector day - do 2 in each seat by mutual agreement and go home - not exactly difficult, dangerous or over-fatiguing.
Talks of potential CRM problems are insulting to professionals.
Given 5/2/5/4 you won't be flying on day 6, you'll be doing SEPs or non FDP stuff.
I have to say I'm no fan of this proposal but, overall, I think folks are making far too much of it.
4 sector day - do 2 in each seat by mutual agreement and go home - not exactly difficult, dangerous or over-fatiguing.
Talks of potential CRM problems are insulting to professionals.
Flaps1,
Just out of interest has anyone looked into the legalities of swopping seats during a duty day. Our ops manual states quite clearly that the company will nominate a commander for a series of flights. By sharing the flying even by mutual agreement you may well be digging yourself a hole in the case of an incident.
Just out of interest has anyone looked into the legalities of swopping seats during a duty day. Our ops manual states quite clearly that the company will nominate a commander for a series of flights. By sharing the flying even by mutual agreement you may well be digging yourself a hole in the case of an incident.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Surrey UK
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just out of interest - are the Capt's flying RHS going to practice low-vis ops from the RHS?
If cross-seat flying will be a regular occurrence this winter that could be a significant safety issue.
I think the supporters of this proposal (which for easyJet is nothing more than a cock-eyed "get out of jail free" card for the mismanagement of pilot recruitment) should remember that in undercrewed bases this will not be a one-off occurrence.
Additionally, comparing it to swapping seats on promotion is pointless. Promotion involves a high level of motivation to adapt to another perspective, combined with a sense of permanence in the move. The practice outlined here is demotivating, repeatable but not permenent, and all because the company thought it could save a couple of bob by delaying 737 F/O recruitment.
I am sincerely sorry for my former colleagues in EZY that in addition to the chronic roster disruption they now have to be dicked around whichever seat they will be sitting in as well. As for the poor bloke(ss) in the LHS who has to do 4-6 sectors as PF for upwards of 11 hours - I can't believe that anyone is sticking up for this stupid, stupid idea.
If cross-seat flying will be a regular occurrence this winter that could be a significant safety issue.
I think the supporters of this proposal (which for easyJet is nothing more than a cock-eyed "get out of jail free" card for the mismanagement of pilot recruitment) should remember that in undercrewed bases this will not be a one-off occurrence.
Additionally, comparing it to swapping seats on promotion is pointless. Promotion involves a high level of motivation to adapt to another perspective, combined with a sense of permanence in the move. The practice outlined here is demotivating, repeatable but not permenent, and all because the company thought it could save a couple of bob by delaying 737 F/O recruitment.
I am sincerely sorry for my former colleagues in EZY that in addition to the chronic roster disruption they now have to be dicked around whichever seat they will be sitting in as well. As for the poor bloke(ss) in the LHS who has to do 4-6 sectors as PF for upwards of 11 hours - I can't believe that anyone is sticking up for this stupid, stupid idea.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gary, fair enough can't argue with anything you have said there. However, don't you think there should be some compensation for doing something that is outside the usual remit of a line captain? People have mentioned clauses in contracts etc, but from what i can see it is not covered. To do the job requires additional training, it assists the company to increase/maintain revenue (not cancelling flights, less F/O's req'd with same number of Captains, increased stby cover etc) so surely there should be an offer put on the table for some remuneration. Even asking before hand rather than a unilateral "this is what is happening!" declaration would have been nice. Maybe the next bright idea should require people who want to be TRE/TRI to pay the company for the pleasure of doing the course, after all it is an extra qualification that they can take away with them and it costs time and money for them to do the course. CTC could set it up, around Ģ20k should be about right!
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: 'An Airfield Somewhere in England'
Posts: 1,094
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Beardy
I assume you are not an airline pilot. If you were you would know that it does 'feel' very different when you change seats. The truth is that some people find it easier than others but most pilots would acknowledge that the act of flying from a different seat is initially quite hard work. It uses up a lot of capacity when normally the act of flying is a 'motor skill' - ie learnt behaviour you don't have to think about. I have no worries about the CRM aspects of this and will actively enjoy flying with guys who I do not normally get to work with.
The simple answer would be to employ the right number of FOs!
I assume you are not an airline pilot. If you were you would know that it does 'feel' very different when you change seats. The truth is that some people find it easier than others but most pilots would acknowledge that the act of flying from a different seat is initially quite hard work. It uses up a lot of capacity when normally the act of flying is a 'motor skill' - ie learnt behaviour you don't have to think about. I have no worries about the CRM aspects of this and will actively enjoy flying with guys who I do not normally get to work with.
The simple answer would be to employ the right number of FOs!
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There's no problem with changing commanders at half-time just as long as a commander is clearly nominated for a flight, or series of flights, and that commander signs the Tech Log.
I thnk LVO trg/chk training should be given as part of any RHS trg/check.
Sub-charters cost shed-loads and that's my pay rise so, for a limited period, I can go along with this scheme to get over an apparently temp issue............. but my limited support will not be open-ended!
I thnk LVO trg/chk training should be given as part of any RHS trg/check.
Sub-charters cost shed-loads and that's my pay rise so, for a limited period, I can go along with this scheme to get over an apparently temp issue............. but my limited support will not be open-ended!
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Germany
Posts: 301
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Letīs face it: An incident/accident mostly starts with a minor item developing to (maybe) a desaster.
A minor item could be a "RHS Line captain", not comfortable and not that proficient and more or less forced to this step.
Looking at the "high safety standards" of EZY ( Own declaration) there should be no need even to take any risk that is obviously avoidable! I know lotīs of experienced jet pilots waiting since month for their assessment!
It is just a matter of mangement planning and not a question of how good some of us are in changing seats and solve still different tasks!
Why support management misplanning in taking maybe a little higher risk of operation (flight safety)???
Some of the very "strong" pilots see it maybe even as some kind of challenge!? I am to old for being happy to display my abilities in the Left and Right seat just to solve management errors!
BTW, Lufthansa tried the same game some years ago, to force their Training Captains fly as RHS/FO duties on normal passenger flights. As far as I remember, this was even decided (against LH) at court.
A minor item could be a "RHS Line captain", not comfortable and not that proficient and more or less forced to this step.
Looking at the "high safety standards" of EZY ( Own declaration) there should be no need even to take any risk that is obviously avoidable! I know lotīs of experienced jet pilots waiting since month for their assessment!
It is just a matter of mangement planning and not a question of how good some of us are in changing seats and solve still different tasks!
Why support management misplanning in taking maybe a little higher risk of operation (flight safety)???
Some of the very "strong" pilots see it maybe even as some kind of challenge!? I am to old for being happy to display my abilities in the Left and Right seat just to solve management errors!
BTW, Lufthansa tried the same game some years ago, to force their Training Captains fly as RHS/FO duties on normal passenger flights. As far as I remember, this was even decided (against LH) at court.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FlapsOne
I often do 6 days, I don't work for easyJet!
bloggs2
I don't think it's a pay issue as much as safety.
Lager
We were given enough training to feel confident enough! I was certainly. Not in this scenario though! I don't feel professional enough sitting in the RHS, after 10 years in the left! I can't do a professional enough job, or a safe enough one. I am not interested in proving myself yet again, to anyone, for any reason whatsoever! I don't have the willpower to satisfy anyone, particularly management. You must be so very different and brilliant. I wish I was you!!!! NOT.
Norman Stanley Fletcher, You Gimboid, Kraut
Quite agree!
Given 5/2/5/4 you won't be flying on day 6, you'll be doing SEPs or non FDP stuff
bloggs2
Gary, fair enough can't argue with anything you have said there. However, don't you think there should be some compensation for doing something that is outside the usual remit of a line captain?
Lager
As for 'unsafe' operation: puh-lease. When all us Captains sat in the LHS for the first time (probably in the sim on our command courses), did we crash the first few approaches of takeoffs we flew? I doubt it.
We were given enough training to feel confident enough! I was certainly. Not in this scenario though! I don't feel professional enough sitting in the RHS, after 10 years in the left! I can't do a professional enough job, or a safe enough one. I am not interested in proving myself yet again, to anyone, for any reason whatsoever! I don't have the willpower to satisfy anyone, particularly management. You must be so very different and brilliant. I wish I was you!!!! NOT.
Norman Stanley Fletcher, You Gimboid, Kraut
Quite agree!
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
there have been rumours in another low cost airline that SFOs may be asked to fly LEFT hand seat on odd days to "increase flexibility for the crewing department"
Hasn't happened yet, but watch out!
Hasn't happened yet, but watch out!
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Thailand
Posts: 942
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wonder what happened to my last post on this subject? It was somewhere near the bottom of page 2!!
Dirty Mach...............Just where did you dream up that load of twaddle? Absolute rubbish mate. SFO is still an FO not a Captain.
Dirty Mach...............Just where did you dream up that load of twaddle? Absolute rubbish mate. SFO is still an FO not a Captain.
Rubik101, I think Dirty Mach was bsaying that tongue in cheek. And was your post this one in a very similar thread? http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...00#post2045000
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 282
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can't believe the amount of drivel being typed on this thread if you are an experienced and proffesional pilot you should be able to operate from either seat particularlly if you have any significant experience on type. If your are already a captain you should be well aware of what the First officers duties are if you don't call your chief pilot and resign as your to thick to be a captain!
For gods sake guys were not talking rocket science here, only a 2 foot move besides during training we often operate from either seat with no major problems.
I suspect that the only danger is that some ego's may get damaged but as far as I'm aware that is not a life threatening condition!
Any non pilot reading this thread must think we're arse***ls. I see absolutly no saftey issue with this at all after all the millitary do this a lot I have personally operated many large aircraft from either seat and the Airbus A319 is by far the easiest type to change seats on!
Please stop lowering our proffesion with such nonsence!
For gods sake guys were not talking rocket science here, only a 2 foot move besides during training we often operate from either seat with no major problems.
I suspect that the only danger is that some ego's may get damaged but as far as I'm aware that is not a life threatening condition!
Any non pilot reading this thread must think we're arse***ls. I see absolutly no saftey issue with this at all after all the millitary do this a lot I have personally operated many large aircraft from either seat and the Airbus A319 is by far the easiest type to change seats on!
Please stop lowering our proffesion with such nonsence!
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 562
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
unablereqnavperf,
You talk total bollocks. Firstly you cant even spell professional and secondly you have no idea what moving seat involves. I work for a respected company and we give our new captains approx 10 hours sim training and 14 sectors before they are checked out. Prior to this they will have done years proving they are up to the job. Why waste the training if it is an easy move across the cockpit. You have now idea how different each side of the flight deck is. Jumping seats is not as easy as you pretend to know!!
Suggest you finish your school spelling lessons and grow up.
You talk total bollocks. Firstly you cant even spell professional and secondly you have no idea what moving seat involves. I work for a respected company and we give our new captains approx 10 hours sim training and 14 sectors before they are checked out. Prior to this they will have done years proving they are up to the job. Why waste the training if it is an easy move across the cockpit. You have now idea how different each side of the flight deck is. Jumping seats is not as easy as you pretend to know!!
Suggest you finish your school spelling lessons and grow up.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Germany
Posts: 301
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@unablereqnavperf
Donīt only think of "aviation" querries. If you do not accept other pilots opinion about safety, how about economics??
A good paid captain in the right seat for considerable times, just makes no economical sence!
Management is always complaining about high costs for personal affairs!
They bond you for a certain amount of training received, because training is expensive!
Now they train additionally captains, to operate the normally lower paid right seat! You know probably how low the profit margin is! This decision will not improve the profit margin.
A well manged recruiting and a normal operation with Captains and FOīs will assure ECONOMICAL and SAFE airline operation!
If YOU like to absorb mismanagement by your own pilot skills -fine with me.
Than they should ask for voluntary "RHS NON FLYING PILOTS"! Than everybody will get his chance!
Next time they are asking the FOīs to act as "cabin crew", because it is already the same aircraft we all are flying in!
Donīt only think of "aviation" querries. If you do not accept other pilots opinion about safety, how about economics??
A good paid captain in the right seat for considerable times, just makes no economical sence!
Management is always complaining about high costs for personal affairs!
They bond you for a certain amount of training received, because training is expensive!
Now they train additionally captains, to operate the normally lower paid right seat! You know probably how low the profit margin is! This decision will not improve the profit margin.
A well manged recruiting and a normal operation with Captains and FOīs will assure ECONOMICAL and SAFE airline operation!
If YOU like to absorb mismanagement by your own pilot skills -fine with me.
Than they should ask for voluntary "RHS NON FLYING PILOTS"! Than everybody will get his chance!
Next time they are asking the FOīs to act as "cabin crew", because it is already the same aircraft we all are flying in!
Last edited by Kraut; 21st Aug 2005 at 08:07.
Person Of Interest
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Keystone Heights, Florida
Age: 68
Posts: 842
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's called "Right Seat Dependancy" training at one FAR 121 airline where I used to work. Besides the usual sim scenairos stated in some of the posts above, we were required to perform 3 actual TOL's in the A/C from the RHS with a check airman in the LHS every 12 months.
Normally, the Captain in the RHS was the PNF, with seat swapping the norm with the Commander.
In my experience, most Captains assigned to fly a trip in the RHS, whether senior to the Commander or not, welcomed the opportunity to relax rather than "supervise" a newly minted F/O.
A real Captain usually doesn't have the ego thinking flying the RHS is beneath him...and besides, seat swapping means moving all of your sh!t from one side of the cockpit to the other...not really worth the bother IMHO....
Normally, the Captain in the RHS was the PNF, with seat swapping the norm with the Commander.
In my experience, most Captains assigned to fly a trip in the RHS, whether senior to the Commander or not, welcomed the opportunity to relax rather than "supervise" a newly minted F/O.
A real Captain usually doesn't have the ego thinking flying the RHS is beneath him...and besides, seat swapping means moving all of your sh!t from one side of the cockpit to the other...not really worth the bother IMHO....