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If a contract says, "You are employed as Captain..." then I doubt it would take much of a lawyer to prove that if you were asked to operate as a First Officer then this is outside the remit of your contract
The titles 'Captain' and 'First Officer' are mererly honourific, allocated according to a particular requirements of the company and within the protocol arranged, in the main, by fellow pilots.
Far too many people attaching far too much sigificance to a job title.
To all those huffing and puffing about the difficulties/dangers of flying with a pilot with actually vastly more experience than those with whom they are usually happy to fly with:
If you have been asked to do something by your employer which you do not believe is safe, I hope you will refuse to operate, as you would rightly expect of any professional in such a situation.
If you do operate under such conditions yet still continue complain on an internet chatroom, rather than to any number of more appropriate and qualified, authorities (who, if your argument is valid, will surely put a stop to this right away), about how unsafe the whole affair is, then one is sailing very close to shores of hypocrisy..!
So the company now don't need so many FOs, since they can cover both seats with just Captains on SBY?
Well, if standby cover is to remain at the same(adequate, but minimum) level without sacrificing the crewing level of the rest of the fleet, that means in fact they need to promote FOs, not work Captains harder. So oughtn't those opposing this concept on industrial grounds really be in favour?
If you do operate under such conditions yet still continue complain on an internet chatroom, rather than to any number of more appropriate and qualified, authorities (who, if your argument is valid, will surely put a stop to this right away),
Last edited by Right Way Up; 22nd Aug 2005 at 20:06.
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Flaps, you don't seem to be reading my posts before sounding off.
Yes, as I stated, quite clearly, my contract says I am employed "as Captain". Is that clear enough? What does yours say? Sure as hell it doesn't say as "pilot". Why are you questioning a statement of fact? What are you on about?
"Folks like me", pal, have continued to pay our £600 per year despite seeing our Ts and Cs eroded at every round of negotiations and never seeing improvements, including the loss of one third of our leave, so don't give me that crap about "joining forces". I've been in for years, though I am seriously wondering why. ThusI find the middle two paras of your post rather offensive.
Why was BALPA, as the pilot's official negotiating body, not involved in this? I didn't say it was BALPA's fault so don't rear up! I just asked a question, thats all. As I said, if BALPA is not consulted on matters such as this what is the point of it's being the pilot's consultative body?
Yes, as I stated, quite clearly, my contract says I am employed "as Captain". Is that clear enough? What does yours say? Sure as hell it doesn't say as "pilot". Why are you questioning a statement of fact? What are you on about?
"Folks like me", pal, have continued to pay our £600 per year despite seeing our Ts and Cs eroded at every round of negotiations and never seeing improvements, including the loss of one third of our leave, so don't give me that crap about "joining forces". I've been in for years, though I am seriously wondering why. ThusI find the middle two paras of your post rather offensive.
Why was BALPA, as the pilot's official negotiating body, not involved in this? I didn't say it was BALPA's fault so don't rear up! I just asked a question, thats all. As I said, if BALPA is not consulted on matters such as this what is the point of it's being the pilot's consultative body?
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agaricus,
I couldn't agree more. this has been the first time I've ever joined a union in many years of airline flying and I am quite frankly amazed at ...........
1: how openly the CC members (like Flaps ?) openly admit how toothless and weak BALPA is in easy and that it's all they can do to hang on to our average T & C's.
2: That the most common statement I've read from the CC has been along the lines of ' well if you don't like it , stand up and sort it out yourselves'
3: the complete lack of political ability displayed that borders on ignorance sometimes. PM on the BALPA site is sometimes incredibly rude to the people he represents. (or did).
as far as this RHS things goes. I don't like it, it has the potential to raise CRM issues, it's never been part of my job description and I have no desire to fly with any other captain or commander no matter how well I get on with them.
I couldn't agree more. this has been the first time I've ever joined a union in many years of airline flying and I am quite frankly amazed at ...........
1: how openly the CC members (like Flaps ?) openly admit how toothless and weak BALPA is in easy and that it's all they can do to hang on to our average T & C's.
2: That the most common statement I've read from the CC has been along the lines of ' well if you don't like it , stand up and sort it out yourselves'
3: the complete lack of political ability displayed that borders on ignorance sometimes. PM on the BALPA site is sometimes incredibly rude to the people he represents. (or did).
as far as this RHS things goes. I don't like it, it has the potential to raise CRM issues, it's never been part of my job description and I have no desire to fly with any other captain or commander no matter how well I get on with them.
Psychophysiological entity
I did not read this thread ‘till now. I’m just amazed at the concept of an experienced skipper having to move across to RHS let alone PNF duties as standard.
The shortest job I ever had was 3 minutes. The “our captains take it in turns” statement had me saying something like F-orf I fly as captain or not at all. The boss man said that I sounded like an arrogant b*****d, and the interview went downhill from there.
The shortest job I ever had was 3 minutes. The “our captains take it in turns” statement had me saying something like F-orf I fly as captain or not at all. The boss man said that I sounded like an arrogant b*****d, and the interview went downhill from there.
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Flaps one - that's it. I have had an utter gutsful of Balpa and what it represents at easyJet.
Because I am exhausted from operating 5/2/5/4 I have to be careful not to become too emotive while writing this because I am truly f******g mad.
But you have inspired me, whether naively or not, to do everything I can do to get easyJet management to discuss future issues regarding pilot welfare/contract etc with another outfit, any outfit, other than Balpa.
Because I am exhausted from operating 5/2/5/4 I have to be careful not to become too emotive while writing this because I am truly f******g mad.
But you have inspired me, whether naively or not, to do everything I can do to get easyJet management to discuss future issues regarding pilot welfare/contract etc with another outfit, any outfit, other than Balpa.
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As I said...must be an EU type thing...you folks need to get over it or leave the industry...things are what they are because of the way you've let them become....don't really have these probs in the USA...
BTW...how many of you "whining" so called ""I'm flying the LHS or nothing, my job is Captain" types could pass a JAR conversion today?
Get over it...as for your union...ck out the NWA thread ref: ALPA and the mechanics....
BTW...how many of you "whining" so called ""I'm flying the LHS or nothing, my job is Captain" types could pass a JAR conversion today?
Get over it...as for your union...ck out the NWA thread ref: ALPA and the mechanics....
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well you've gotta hand it to the (mis)management. A cunning plan to introduce this garbage just before the pay negotiations. Therefore if any type of compromise is reached on it, The cc think they've achieved something but we still all end up worse off than last year. If Easyjet want to save some money why don't they pay off some of the muppets in LTN the consistently dream up these hair brained schemes.
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Down in 3, you have it right up to a point; it is our fault because we don't stand up for ourselves as we should. You are utterly wrong however with accusations of whining. No one here is whining and a Capt is not usually expected to fly in the RHS, at least in my modest 20+yrs in commercial aviation I have never heard of it before. It may happen in the US, but then FOs don't even need type ratings there as I understand it. We do things a little differently here.
What I am really pissed off about is the fact that we, as a group, seem minded to allow this further chip at our terms and conditions without real protest, and our Union seems to be defending the management line instead of ours. Of course BALPA cannot achieve the impossible, and we, ourselves, are BALPA - it ain't no troop of cavalry lined up at Fort New Road ready to gallop to our aid. Our reps work like Trojans to modify the wilder schemes of the orange shed, touble is that BALPA doesn't see very much at all as possible, and has so often let us down where we have been promised so much progress and yet achieved a worse position than when we started, accompanied by crowings that their achievement was so fantastic under the circumstances and we should all be grateful (for the shafting...) Again, why is BALPA so silent on why they were not consulted on this? In any other industry the union would be screaming blue murder at such a change without consultation. It is this complacency that worries the fee paying members. Chip chip chip. Aint gonna be anything left to chip at before long.
Sorry, but unless BALPA does start to show some ability at achieving results on our side and not on behalf of the management then they will be increasingly seen as a busted flush. Last year I had 30 days holiday. This year I have 20 and BALPA claims this as a great improvement in terms of lifestyle and I should be grateful or it could have been worse. Oh really, how? My family do not agree. Chip. We lost our proper recurrent classroom training and BALPA muttered not one word despite the loss of a couple more days of our own time to do the work at home. Chip. We have to provide our own computers to read the company manuals, cost £600 or more. This is simply outrageous. Not a bleat from BALPA. Chip. Would they say a peep if it turned out we'd all have to buy Macs and not PCs? The hell they would!FOs found their loyalty bonus talked away, Chip. Talk abounds on doing away with Capt's bonus too in exchange for some unpromisable profit share scheme which BALPA inexplicably seems to favour. Chip. Now we are to work FOs duties with possibly insufficient training and BALPA is not even bleating about it. This is not progress, or value for money. Chip.
We will never recruit new members on this sort of record.
Chip chip chip.
What I am really pissed off about is the fact that we, as a group, seem minded to allow this further chip at our terms and conditions without real protest, and our Union seems to be defending the management line instead of ours. Of course BALPA cannot achieve the impossible, and we, ourselves, are BALPA - it ain't no troop of cavalry lined up at Fort New Road ready to gallop to our aid. Our reps work like Trojans to modify the wilder schemes of the orange shed, touble is that BALPA doesn't see very much at all as possible, and has so often let us down where we have been promised so much progress and yet achieved a worse position than when we started, accompanied by crowings that their achievement was so fantastic under the circumstances and we should all be grateful (for the shafting...) Again, why is BALPA so silent on why they were not consulted on this? In any other industry the union would be screaming blue murder at such a change without consultation. It is this complacency that worries the fee paying members. Chip chip chip. Aint gonna be anything left to chip at before long.
Sorry, but unless BALPA does start to show some ability at achieving results on our side and not on behalf of the management then they will be increasingly seen as a busted flush. Last year I had 30 days holiday. This year I have 20 and BALPA claims this as a great improvement in terms of lifestyle and I should be grateful or it could have been worse. Oh really, how? My family do not agree. Chip. We lost our proper recurrent classroom training and BALPA muttered not one word despite the loss of a couple more days of our own time to do the work at home. Chip. We have to provide our own computers to read the company manuals, cost £600 or more. This is simply outrageous. Not a bleat from BALPA. Chip. Would they say a peep if it turned out we'd all have to buy Macs and not PCs? The hell they would!FOs found their loyalty bonus talked away, Chip. Talk abounds on doing away with Capt's bonus too in exchange for some unpromisable profit share scheme which BALPA inexplicably seems to favour. Chip. Now we are to work FOs duties with possibly insufficient training and BALPA is not even bleating about it. This is not progress, or value for money. Chip.
We will never recruit new members on this sort of record.
Chip chip chip.
The continual erosion of the terms and conditions at easyJet is a direct result of the complete lack of leadership from the BALPA cc who have repeatedly rolled over in the face of the management “divide and rule” tactics. They have consistently told the members that we should accept reductions in our terms and conditions with the result that the F/Os have lost their loyalty bonuses and have to put up with 90% pay for six months on promotion, whilst everyone has lost a huge chunk of their leave with a less than ideal rostering agreement where the company's obligations are merely "asperational". Now we are being told that they can do nothing about the company requiring captains to fly in the RHS.
I feel that my interests have been “represented” by lapdogs. But then again, at least a Chihuahua has balls……………..
I feel that my interests have been “represented” by lapdogs. But then again, at least a Chihuahua has balls……………..
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If all captains refused to take a RHS check then EZY would really be in the S**t.Don't think managers could do anything about it.I think the reason the F/O's are leaving is because they are being screwed AGAIN! as EZY are bringing in DEC's on both types which has happened before.
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I have spent time on both sides of the union/management divide.
My experience was that unless something was important enough for the membership to be willing to get off their butts and fight for it, it was "compromised" away.
A number of key phrases kept cropping up.
Here are some
In the current climate.
Reasonable compromise.
Unrealistic expectactions.
Unreasonable expectations.
The best we can do for now.
and so on ad nauseam.
Not once, never, ever, did I hear "we are doing well now, we can afford to offer something more".
Maybe I was just with airlines that were born losers, but that phrase never was heard.
So colleagues/comrades you hold the key to your futures, not the union executive. They can talk till they are blue in the face, if the membership is not willing to back their talk with some sort of action, then it is just that, mere talk. They will be fighting a rearguard action, and the company will chip another little bit off.
(edited for spelling)
My experience was that unless something was important enough for the membership to be willing to get off their butts and fight for it, it was "compromised" away.
A number of key phrases kept cropping up.
Here are some
In the current climate.
Reasonable compromise.
Unrealistic expectactions.
Unreasonable expectations.
The best we can do for now.
and so on ad nauseam.
Not once, never, ever, did I hear "we are doing well now, we can afford to offer something more".
Maybe I was just with airlines that were born losers, but that phrase never was heard.
So colleagues/comrades you hold the key to your futures, not the union executive. They can talk till they are blue in the face, if the membership is not willing to back their talk with some sort of action, then it is just that, mere talk. They will be fighting a rearguard action, and the company will chip another little bit off.
(edited for spelling)
Last edited by ZQA297/30; 23rd Aug 2005 at 10:04.
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ZQA297/30
I'm afraid that as long as Balpa's attitude is reflected by the likes of Flaps 1 you can not expect people to believe they will achieve anything.
People are not joining Balpa because Balpa have been totally ineffective over the last few years at Easyjet (even though they profess otherwise), and as we see above this looks like being the way things will stay.
If Balpa had stood by it's guns once or twice in the past people might be persuaded but at the last minute it became roadshows with both Balpa and management pushing the view.......'actually this isn't a bad deal so we recommend it'.
'.......Errrr but how come last week you were vehemently against it?'
Not exactly a brilliant way of convincing people you mean what you say!
I'm afraid that as long as Balpa's attitude is reflected by the likes of Flaps 1 you can not expect people to believe they will achieve anything.
People are not joining Balpa because Balpa have been totally ineffective over the last few years at Easyjet (even though they profess otherwise), and as we see above this looks like being the way things will stay.
If Balpa had stood by it's guns once or twice in the past people might be persuaded but at the last minute it became roadshows with both Balpa and management pushing the view.......'actually this isn't a bad deal so we recommend it'.
'.......Errrr but how come last week you were vehemently against it?'
Not exactly a brilliant way of convincing people you mean what you say!
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As long as the membership are willing to settle for whatever BALPA serves up, they deserve what they get.
If the membership is not happy with the representation, then change it. Surely the mechanism to do this exists.
BALPA is there to serve pilots, not vv.
As the textbooks will tell you, union success is not based on logical reasonable arguments, it is based on power, and more importantly, the perception of power.
Logical arguments are merely the justification (or pretext) for using, or threatening to use, the power.
Employers react to power plays, not clever arguments. Sad but true.
If the membership is not happy with the representation, then change it. Surely the mechanism to do this exists.
BALPA is there to serve pilots, not vv.
As the textbooks will tell you, union success is not based on logical reasonable arguments, it is based on power, and more importantly, the perception of power.
Logical arguments are merely the justification (or pretext) for using, or threatening to use, the power.
Employers react to power plays, not clever arguments. Sad but true.
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As long as the membership are willing to settle for whatever BALPA serves up, they deserve what they get.
You might also quote:
As long as Balpa are willing to settle for whatever management serves up, they deserve what they get.
I know it's the chicken/egg argument but Balpa must get some credibility before they will attract anybody.
If the BALPA members are to fight for something, they have to have the leadership from the cc. In the past we have been advised to accept whatever crap deal is being offered on the basis that it is the best available and that we have not got the muscle to get anything better. I disagree with this defeatist attitude that has been peddled around and if the company cannot crew the flights with the crew they have, what chance have they if the BALPA members went on strike for a day? We have the power - we have always had the power - it is just that the cc have not had the courage to call the company's bluff.
Fortunately there have recently been changes on the cc and these cannot possibly be changes for the worse.
Fortunately there have recently been changes on the cc and these cannot possibly be changes for the worse.
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we seem to have hijacked the thread and turned it into a BALPA agony forum.
seriously, should this RHS thing not be voluntary ? it s an additional qualification and having been a trainer on other jets for years it's not one I want again.
I'm happy as a line capt in the LHS.
seriously, should this RHS thing not be voluntary ? it s an additional qualification and having been a trainer on other jets for years it's not one I want again.
I'm happy as a line capt in the LHS.
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If Captains are going to sit in the RHS then surely they should be paid the same sector pay as the person who normally sits there and does the same job?
Or maybe it is about time that there was equality in the sector pay between Capt and FO's. A significant £ increase might stem the flow of fed up FO's.
Or maybe it is about time that there was equality in the sector pay between Capt and FO's. A significant £ increase might stem the flow of fed up FO's.
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As I said previously, if your contract says you are employed as a Captain - no problem - you have the absolutley perfect get-out clause and I cannot understand your problem.
We asked, a couple of weeks ago, for any Balpa member to send us a copy of their contract if that (Captain only clause) was the case and not one came forth. Now we find that someone has one but didn't contact us but did it indirectly via PPRune.
It's nice to get so much help but still be heavily criticised for doing nothing about it.........even though we are anyway!!
There is so much precedant in all industries regarding the level of union support relating directly to the effctiveness and 'power' of that union, but here we have examples of a few who choose to totally ignore that and suggest the effectiveness needs to be there first - before the support is given.
Good luck to the new CC.
We asked, a couple of weeks ago, for any Balpa member to send us a copy of their contract if that (Captain only clause) was the case and not one came forth. Now we find that someone has one but didn't contact us but did it indirectly via PPRune.
It's nice to get so much help but still be heavily criticised for doing nothing about it.........even though we are anyway!!
There is so much precedant in all industries regarding the level of union support relating directly to the effctiveness and 'power' of that union, but here we have examples of a few who choose to totally ignore that and suggest the effectiveness needs to be there first - before the support is given.
Good luck to the new CC.