European Aviation Problems (Merged)
Airline cuts 220 jobs at Gatwick
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Desperate
Hi Crewing Doctor
I understand what you are saying about not wanting to bring European down but isn't it time this company ceased trading once and for all. Stoddy is going to continue messing with peoples lives over and over again if something isn't done about him. It is bad enough being made redundant but to be left in this "black hole" just waiting to see if we will get any money and not being able to speak to anyone at European is no longer a joke. Last week we were venting our anger on this forum which we needed to do, but we are now getting desperate and desperate people do silly things.
Badger Badger Badger
You seem very clued up about what was and is going on at European. Would I be right in saying you are in the same flower bed as the new Cabin Services Manager? If that is the case you are in a different position to the rest of us. Perhaps you are being told what to say to try to difuse the situation!!
I understand what you are saying about not wanting to bring European down but isn't it time this company ceased trading once and for all. Stoddy is going to continue messing with peoples lives over and over again if something isn't done about him. It is bad enough being made redundant but to be left in this "black hole" just waiting to see if we will get any money and not being able to speak to anyone at European is no longer a joke. Last week we were venting our anger on this forum which we needed to do, but we are now getting desperate and desperate people do silly things.
Badger Badger Badger
You seem very clued up about what was and is going on at European. Would I be right in saying you are in the same flower bed as the new Cabin Services Manager? If that is the case you are in a different position to the rest of us. Perhaps you are being told what to say to try to difuse the situation!!
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No i am the badger
Witchway
No you have the wrong man im afraid, nice try though, and he isn't the new Cabin Services Manager he is the returning one.
I only speak what i know and believe in, i just didn't go about my job blinkered. Regardless of that EAAC would not prompt any of their staff to comment on here since this site was banned from use within the company.
This site is a rumour site, nothing more nothing less. And quite a dangerous one at that, for this can be accessed by the public as well as the aviation industry, so if anything some of the posting on here i feel could be attributed to the current downfall of EAAC.
With a CVA the company is allowed to continue trading but it has a structured plan to follow which is controlled and watched over by an administration. This allows them to repay what they owe over a set period of time. For this to work it is more than understandable that the company will have to streamline, and that is why most of us were made redundant. The usual turn around is in the region of a month to 2 months, so the longer you keep hold of those forms the longer you will have to wait.
I too was made redundant, and have spent most of the week trying to get all the proper forms filled out in order to activate those lovely things called payment protection plans.
I know we are all upset and bitter and twisted about the whole thing, but surely all this energy could be put towards getting new jobs; not slagging off those who would write our references.
No you have the wrong man im afraid, nice try though, and he isn't the new Cabin Services Manager he is the returning one.
I only speak what i know and believe in, i just didn't go about my job blinkered. Regardless of that EAAC would not prompt any of their staff to comment on here since this site was banned from use within the company.
This site is a rumour site, nothing more nothing less. And quite a dangerous one at that, for this can be accessed by the public as well as the aviation industry, so if anything some of the posting on here i feel could be attributed to the current downfall of EAAC.
With a CVA the company is allowed to continue trading but it has a structured plan to follow which is controlled and watched over by an administration. This allows them to repay what they owe over a set period of time. For this to work it is more than understandable that the company will have to streamline, and that is why most of us were made redundant. The usual turn around is in the region of a month to 2 months, so the longer you keep hold of those forms the longer you will have to wait.
I too was made redundant, and have spent most of the week trying to get all the proper forms filled out in order to activate those lovely things called payment protection plans.
I know we are all upset and bitter and twisted about the whole thing, but surely all this energy could be put towards getting new jobs; not slagging off those who would write our references.
Last edited by Badger Badger Badger; 23rd Mar 2004 at 10:12.
CD,
<<the 747 crews who insisted on travelling business class everywhere they went >>
1. Not everywhere, just on longhaul positioning flights.
2. Flying around the world may be Holiday for you but it is Work for us.
3. EAAC had to have experienced B747 crews to start the operation - no other way and we would not have worked for poor terms & conditions.
4. £1K extra before tax for a J class ticket didn't bring the company down.
5. Rather think misuse of expensive aircraft, misuse of crew, witholding of spares, APU u/s, syphoning off of funds etc. etc.
EAAC is the seventh civil airline for which I have flown and, to put it kindly, there was a breathtaking lack of understanding of the support required for a worldwide operation and the costs incurred by a B747 sitting on the ground, subchartering at short notice when the sub knows he can charge top rate or putting 440 pax in an hotel. Staff training did not appear to feature in the business plan.
ps: Give a dog a beach, I did consider an apology but then I thought 'Nah, he was far too triumphant.' - buy you a beer sometime.
<<the 747 crews who insisted on travelling business class everywhere they went >>
1. Not everywhere, just on longhaul positioning flights.
2. Flying around the world may be Holiday for you but it is Work for us.
3. EAAC had to have experienced B747 crews to start the operation - no other way and we would not have worked for poor terms & conditions.
4. £1K extra before tax for a J class ticket didn't bring the company down.
5. Rather think misuse of expensive aircraft, misuse of crew, witholding of spares, APU u/s, syphoning off of funds etc. etc.
EAAC is the seventh civil airline for which I have flown and, to put it kindly, there was a breathtaking lack of understanding of the support required for a worldwide operation and the costs incurred by a B747 sitting on the ground, subchartering at short notice when the sub knows he can charge top rate or putting 440 pax in an hotel. Staff training did not appear to feature in the business plan.
ps: Give a dog a beach, I did consider an apology but then I thought 'Nah, he was far too triumphant.' - buy you a beer sometime.
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Sorry to hear about the problems at EAAC.
The following may be of interest to the ex crew looking for cash and compensation.
The advice comes from an old accountant friend of mine who specialises in dealing with CVA's, receiverships, etc.
1. Get a group together and say, put in £40 each.
2. Get a lawyer to write to the company with the requirement that they pay up on wages and redundancy or you will IMMEDIATELY apply to the court to have the company wound up.
3. This will do either of two things,
a) The company will go into receivership.
or
b) They will pay you
If you wait and do nothing you are likely to get 10% or less and possibly nothing at all.
If it goes into receivership you will get redundancy.
A hard choice but the only way to get the EAAC bosses to sit up and do something is to put down a legal stop to whatever they are planning. They will have to respond.
The alternative is to write your losses off, which is of course what they are hoping.
There must be some money in the company or it would already be in receivership.
Best of Luck.
The following may be of interest to the ex crew looking for cash and compensation.
The advice comes from an old accountant friend of mine who specialises in dealing with CVA's, receiverships, etc.
1. Get a group together and say, put in £40 each.
2. Get a lawyer to write to the company with the requirement that they pay up on wages and redundancy or you will IMMEDIATELY apply to the court to have the company wound up.
3. This will do either of two things,
a) The company will go into receivership.
or
b) They will pay you
If you wait and do nothing you are likely to get 10% or less and possibly nothing at all.
If it goes into receivership you will get redundancy.
A hard choice but the only way to get the EAAC bosses to sit up and do something is to put down a legal stop to whatever they are planning. They will have to respond.
The alternative is to write your losses off, which is of course what they are hoping.
There must be some money in the company or it would already be in receivership.
Best of Luck.
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WhoopWhoop Whoops
I'm ready to give it a go. I don't think stoddy's plane-set will be trading for much longer anyway so we may as well get what we can. Stoddy never plays by the rules and will get caught out shortly.
I'm ready to give it a go. I don't think stoddy's plane-set will be trading for much longer anyway so we may as well get what we can. Stoddy never plays by the rules and will get caught out shortly.
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As normal, only thinkin of yourselves
If EAAC were to go into receivership etc i ask you this.
What about all those people who weren't employed longer than 2 years ? Under redundacy laws they are then entitled to no redundancy pay, and become a creditor. Most creditors get about 6p of every pound owed.
Stop thinking of ways to try and get your own back and try being a team player for once, do as they ask you and theres a good chance you will get what is owed and the company might actually be able to pull itself back regardless of the damaged caused by the pie man.
I say again, under a CVA theres a high chance that you will get all your money back, just have to wait a couple of months.
What about all those people who weren't employed longer than 2 years ? Under redundacy laws they are then entitled to no redundancy pay, and become a creditor. Most creditors get about 6p of every pound owed.
Stop thinking of ways to try and get your own back and try being a team player for once, do as they ask you and theres a good chance you will get what is owed and the company might actually be able to pull itself back regardless of the damaged caused by the pie man.
I say again, under a CVA theres a high chance that you will get all your money back, just have to wait a couple of months.
I've only made a few posts so I don't feel the need to order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe
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Hmmm... methinks Badger Badger Badger is one of those types in management who loves giving their employees the 'mushroom' syndrome.
That sounds to me like someone who doesn't care what the staff are saying. So, if people are talking amongst themselves and the facts being circulated are wrong, this manager doesn't really want to know and doesn't want to even try and correct the wrong information that is circulating. 
As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions. I think that Badger may be one of the "unscrupulous" from that school of management that likes to blame someone else for their failings! So a posting on here that EAAC were in financial trouble caused the collapse of the airline. Yeah, sure!
Bad management and financial mismanagement had nothing to so with it I suppose. Just nasty rumours.
Just hope the innocent victims of the debacle, the ex-employees, manage to secure other work as soon as possible. Just remember, the airline industry is full of "managers" who hate the truth being known about their failings.
This site is a rumour site, nothing more nothing less. And quite a dangerous one at that, for this can be accessed by the public as well as the aviation industry, so if anything some of the posting on here i feel could be attributed to the current downfall of EAAC.
As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions. I think that Badger may be one of the "unscrupulous" from that school of management that likes to blame someone else for their failings! So a posting on here that EAAC were in financial trouble caused the collapse of the airline. Yeah, sure!
Bad management and financial mismanagement had nothing to so with it I suppose. Just nasty rumours. Just hope the innocent victims of the debacle, the ex-employees, manage to secure other work as soon as possible. Just remember, the airline industry is full of "managers" who hate the truth being known about their failings.
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not a manager or a sheep
Nope wrong again, just another redundant member of staff who saw the bigger picture at times, and is loyal to the company not its managers. If you must know i spent 90% of my working day trying to help staff (especially crew) as much as possible whilst i was there, without some of my systems they would of known a lot less.
The company is its staff, it cant operate without staff, and i am merely trying to voice my opinions and information i might know; so that the staff can make informed decisions not emotional ones.
And im not saying that forms of mismanagement aren't to blame, i'm just voicing what i know so if people want to blame management they blame the right ones. Main one being SW not PGS.
Ps: It appears that even BALPA are now recommending that there is nothing to be gained by holding on to the RP1 forms. And suggest you send them in with a letter stating what the company owes you.
The company is its staff, it cant operate without staff, and i am merely trying to voice my opinions and information i might know; so that the staff can make informed decisions not emotional ones.
And im not saying that forms of mismanagement aren't to blame, i'm just voicing what i know so if people want to blame management they blame the right ones. Main one being SW not PGS.
Ps: It appears that even BALPA are now recommending that there is nothing to be gained by holding on to the RP1 forms. And suggest you send them in with a letter stating what the company owes you.
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I float this as an explanantion ... pure hypothesis you understand.
EAL maybe only has fuel payment credit at a number of places, so maybe has to take on enough fuel for positioning to Southend, return trip to Cardiff, and repositioning to ... Bournemouth was it?Having landed at Southend and then done some weight calcs discover that fuel+full pax+short sector = too heavy to land at Cardiff. Solution .. dump pax. Any other theories?
EAL maybe only has fuel payment credit at a number of places, so maybe has to take on enough fuel for positioning to Southend, return trip to Cardiff, and repositioning to ... Bournemouth was it?Having landed at Southend and then done some weight calcs discover that fuel+full pax+short sector = too heavy to land at Cardiff. Solution .. dump pax. Any other theories?
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Witchway
I suppose you had better float the idea via one of the new message boards that you have for EAAC.
Such as http://eaac.proboards3.com/
Certainly hoping that the company will look after you will alas produce nothing.
Best of Luck
I suppose you had better float the idea via one of the new message boards that you have for EAAC.
Such as http://eaac.proboards3.com/
Certainly hoping that the company will look after you will alas produce nothing.
Best of Luck
Last edited by WhoopWhoop Whoops; 23rd Mar 2004 at 14:19.
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Badger Badger Badger
You worked with stoddy junior and probably did receive inside information but the rest of us didn't so don't try and tell us how we should feel. Regardless of whether or not it was his fault this time, the man is a bad apple and should be sent away from our shores before he does any more damage to us unsuspecting Brits.
You worked with stoddy junior and probably did receive inside information but the rest of us didn't so don't try and tell us how we should feel. Regardless of whether or not it was his fault this time, the man is a bad apple and should be sent away from our shores before he does any more damage to us unsuspecting Brits.
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Witchway
Yes i did work with "Stoddy jnr" as you name him, but for your information no i was not privy to any such information. If i were do you think i would of stayed to be made redundant ?!! I resent that you think me so simple !
I was not included in any special meeting nor was i passed any information, i just read the situation and worked out the damage that Woodland had done.
Now i have tried to do my best to inform people of what i knew, and help in anyway i can; but seems that even though no longer employed by EAAC some are still set on causing hassle.
Yes i did work with "Stoddy jnr" as you name him, but for your information no i was not privy to any such information. If i were do you think i would of stayed to be made redundant ?!! I resent that you think me so simple !
I was not included in any special meeting nor was i passed any information, i just read the situation and worked out the damage that Woodland had done.
Now i have tried to do my best to inform people of what i knew, and help in anyway i can; but seems that even though no longer employed by EAAC some are still set on causing hassle.
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Hmmm,
If one looks at the history of British charter aviation (going back to the Templewood days), the road is strewn with poorly managed companies flying clapped out (cheap to acquire, expensive to operate) aircraft.
A very few are well managed, and stay around a long time, but most just fade away, after a year or three.
EAC is more or less, par for the course.
If one looks at the history of British charter aviation (going back to the Templewood days), the road is strewn with poorly managed companies flying clapped out (cheap to acquire, expensive to operate) aircraft.
A very few are well managed, and stay around a long time, but most just fade away, after a year or three.
EAC is more or less, par for the course.
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Redundancy
Although you may not be entitled to redundancy if you have worked for less than the qualifying period ( it used to be 2 years, but someone suggested this was now only 1 year), you should always be entitled to payment in lieu of notice. HOWEVER, the National Insurance doesn't kick in if the company is still trading, so the quicker the administration is started the better. This would mean that the company is protected from its creditors, the remaining staff can continue to get paid, and those sacked will be able to get something back as well. I believe the system is for a professional administrator to be appointed by the courts, who will then run the company instead of Paul Stoddart, Stephen Woodland or whoever. In the case of AFX this was a company called Benedict Mackenzie who specialise in this type of work and have rescued companies in the past. Flight crew in AFX got about £1200 after tax from the National Insurance in lieu of notice, plus more for those who qualified for redundancy.
Hope this helps,
Yotter
Hope this helps,
Yotter
Last edited by yotter; 23rd Mar 2004 at 20:23.
Maybe 411A, but if European was an American company it would still be trading under the bizarre and protectionist 'Chapter 11'
scheme. A system which a large percentage all of the 'poorly managed' American majors have benefitted recently!
scheme. A system which a large percentage all of the 'poorly managed' American majors have benefitted recently!
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Witchway
You seem more intent upon revenge for what has happened than anything else. What about the lucky few who have retained their jobs, are you so bitter that they should also be in the same boat. Badger is correct, fill out the form and join the list of creditors, you stand more chance of getting your money before
the end of the year than by taking legal action and bankrupting the company.
If the company was so bad, why did you even work for them?
The CVA will only be valid for a short period of time and then things should start to pick up again with 747 contracts still on the cards. Could I suggest that all of you that are intent on taking legal action and trying to completely destroy the company write to the remaining management and inform them of this fact so that they do not consider inviting you back and give work to the more deserving and unfortunate ones.
Basil
7 airlines you have flown for! Maybe someone is trying to tell you something? Could I ask how many of them are still operating? Business class seats is the biggest pile of horse s#*t I have ever heard. The senior crew had to have them but the junior cabin crew had to sit down the back. It has nothing to do with rest, duty or anything but elitisim. £1k per ticket does not seem a lot but £2.5k per ticket, each way, for 4 crew adds up to £20k to me. Multiply this by the amount of positioning that was required and it soon adds up.
There seems to be a vendetta against PGS on this forum when you all, with the exception of Badger, seem to have forgotten that Stephen Woodland was responsible for running the company into the ground whilst PGS was away doing other things.
The doctor is in the house
You seem more intent upon revenge for what has happened than anything else. What about the lucky few who have retained their jobs, are you so bitter that they should also be in the same boat. Badger is correct, fill out the form and join the list of creditors, you stand more chance of getting your money before
the end of the year than by taking legal action and bankrupting the company.
If the company was so bad, why did you even work for them?
The CVA will only be valid for a short period of time and then things should start to pick up again with 747 contracts still on the cards. Could I suggest that all of you that are intent on taking legal action and trying to completely destroy the company write to the remaining management and inform them of this fact so that they do not consider inviting you back and give work to the more deserving and unfortunate ones.
Basil
7 airlines you have flown for! Maybe someone is trying to tell you something? Could I ask how many of them are still operating? Business class seats is the biggest pile of horse s#*t I have ever heard. The senior crew had to have them but the junior cabin crew had to sit down the back. It has nothing to do with rest, duty or anything but elitisim. £1k per ticket does not seem a lot but £2.5k per ticket, each way, for 4 crew adds up to £20k to me. Multiply this by the amount of positioning that was required and it soon adds up.
There seems to be a vendetta against PGS on this forum when you all, with the exception of Badger, seem to have forgotten that Stephen Woodland was responsible for running the company into the ground whilst PGS was away doing other things.
The doctor is in the house
CD,
1. <<Maybe someone is trying to tell you something?>>
Not sure what YOU mean. I meant that I am experienced. Amongst several other achievements I've been a captain for two major international airlines - have you?
2. <<elitism>> Well we ARE elite.
1. <<Maybe someone is trying to tell you something?>>
Not sure what YOU mean. I meant that I am experienced. Amongst several other achievements I've been a captain for two major international airlines - have you?
2. <<elitism>> Well we ARE elite.
clapped out (cheap to acquire, expensive to operate) aircraft.