European Aviation Problems (Merged)
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Hey Gimp, good to see you are back! Having been part of the 'European Experience' I must agree with some of your comments.
EAC suffered from dreadful communication problems…. in fact it was fair to say that there was no communication apart from the rumours and gossip. It’s a shame what has happened and I wish staff who have lost their jobs all the best.
Let’s hope the remaining Ops staff will be a credit to the company – though somehow I doubt they will.
FYI, more experienced people have been pushed aside for the less experienced, FEMALE wannabees. It is only fair to point out that those remaining on the Ops/Crewing desk have all allegedly at some point had the misfortune of a sexual encounter with the ODM left in charge…..(not you MH…. obviously!) Funny who’s decision it was to pick the employees to remain – again, it’s not what you know but who! Another good decision from the senior staff.
More importantly, where has Jaffa gone? Who will look after him?
EAC suffered from dreadful communication problems…. in fact it was fair to say that there was no communication apart from the rumours and gossip. It’s a shame what has happened and I wish staff who have lost their jobs all the best.
Let’s hope the remaining Ops staff will be a credit to the company – though somehow I doubt they will.
FYI, more experienced people have been pushed aside for the less experienced, FEMALE wannabees. It is only fair to point out that those remaining on the Ops/Crewing desk have all allegedly at some point had the misfortune of a sexual encounter with the ODM left in charge…..(not you MH…. obviously!) Funny who’s decision it was to pick the employees to remain – again, it’s not what you know but who! Another good decision from the senior staff.
More importantly, where has Jaffa gone? Who will look after him?
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Quote:
"My experience is that he is an individual who cares nothing about anyone but himself, and wants everything whilst those around him doing all the work get nothing. He black mails his employees to break the law and uses intimidation to enforce his own way"
....So many of the above points could be written about hundreds of employers. Get used to it I'm afraid. You may say all you like about these people but they always come back and they always get more people to work for them.
Bottom line is, they make jobs for people like yourself. As much as you dislike them, they are essential for job creation.
Should he start another operation in the UK tomorrow, I reckon 75% plus of Ex-EAAC employees would come running back.
"My experience is that he is an individual who cares nothing about anyone but himself, and wants everything whilst those around him doing all the work get nothing. He black mails his employees to break the law and uses intimidation to enforce his own way"
....So many of the above points could be written about hundreds of employers. Get used to it I'm afraid. You may say all you like about these people but they always come back and they always get more people to work for them.
Bottom line is, they make jobs for people like yourself. As much as you dislike them, they are essential for job creation.
Should he start another operation in the UK tomorrow, I reckon 75% plus of Ex-EAAC employees would come running back.
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I flew the One-Eleven for European for a number of years and I agree that the levels of professionalism throughout the company were second to none, especially perhaps amongst the unsung and very modestly rewarded folk in the back offices.
Can anyone tell me how the engineering side has fared in the downsizing? There were so many good people in the hangars.
confundemus
Can anyone tell me how the engineering side has fared in the downsizing? There were so many good people in the hangars.
confundemus
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As a user of Palmair from time to time, does anyone know how this will effected the crewing of these flights. Their in flight magazine seems to indicate that although the crew are drawn from EAC they are a picked crew, i.e always the same people, and very good they are too. Does Bath Travel’s arrangement with EAC mean they have had a say in who will stay.
Also on the point of maintenance is the base at BOH to be kept going, is it all to be contracted out or is it too early to say?
Also on the point of maintenance is the base at BOH to be kept going, is it all to be contracted out or is it too early to say?
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In todays Flight International is the World Airline Directory
European still has an entry, as is to be expected.
Does any one know is the information is very current or is it the old figures.
eg - No of flt crew- 63
No of cabin crew - 75.
8 737-200 and 4 747-200.
And parent organisation - Bath Travel (100%)
I suspect its old info but would be interesting to find out different.
European still has an entry, as is to be expected.
Does any one know is the information is very current or is it the old figures.
eg - No of flt crew- 63
No of cabin crew - 75.
8 737-200 and 4 747-200.
And parent organisation - Bath Travel (100%)
I suspect its old info but would be interesting to find out different.
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any current EAL staff reading this thread might like to read the 'Cardiff charter' thread on Airlines Airports + Routes and explain Sundays cock-up and how EAL managed to ruin so many people's once-in-a-lifetime big day out??
A friend of mine who should have been on that trip will not be interested in talk of 'professionalism, good people at EAL' etc etc
A friend of mine who should have been on that trip will not be interested in talk of 'professionalism, good people at EAL' etc etc
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Yankee, in response to your post I will answer what I know. I was under the impression that aircraft and Flight Deck etc were European, but Cabin Crew were hired by Bath travel. Not sure if thats true, but certainly Bath Travel were heavily involved with the recruitment of cabin crew for Palmair services.
Also, if EAF are keeping just two 737s, then isn't that just the Palmair contract? Or are they keeping a few more?
Also, if EAF are keeping just two 737s, then isn't that just the Palmair contract? Or are they keeping a few more?
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Plane that left 50 supporters behind
It should have been the biggest day out of their lives, but the hopes of more than 50 Southend United fans heading to the LDV Vans Trophy Final were grounded before they even left town.
They were left behind because their plane needed more fuel in high winds, leaving fans such as Stephen Salt to watch the match on TV.
Having paid at least Ł200 each, 130 supporters expected to fly from Southend to Cardiff for the match against Blackpool at the Millennium Stadium through a special matchday package arranged by the club.
However, a combination of high winds and too much aviation fuel meant half of them were not at the ground in time to see their heroes kick off at 1pm.
While more than 45 fans arrived at the match at half-time, around 15 decided not to make the journey and watched the match at home on TV.
Stephen Salt, said: "I am hugely disappointed. After we had checked in our host from Southend United, Brian Dear, told us the plane had too much fuel on board and that they could only carry half the passengers."
Southend United used flight bookers Bookajet to charter a Boeing 737-200 from European Aviation Air Charter (EAL).
EAL commercial director Ken Dyer told how the Boeing 737 was forced to ditch some passengers in favour of vital extra fuel. He said: "Southend Airport has a fairly limited performance because of a short runway and when the wind is in a certain direction there is a church spire which interferes with take off."
It should have been the biggest day out of their lives, but the hopes of more than 50 Southend United fans heading to the LDV Vans Trophy Final were grounded before they even left town.
They were left behind because their plane needed more fuel in high winds, leaving fans such as Stephen Salt to watch the match on TV.
Having paid at least Ł200 each, 130 supporters expected to fly from Southend to Cardiff for the match against Blackpool at the Millennium Stadium through a special matchday package arranged by the club.
However, a combination of high winds and too much aviation fuel meant half of them were not at the ground in time to see their heroes kick off at 1pm.
While more than 45 fans arrived at the match at half-time, around 15 decided not to make the journey and watched the match at home on TV.
Stephen Salt, said: "I am hugely disappointed. After we had checked in our host from Southend United, Brian Dear, told us the plane had too much fuel on board and that they could only carry half the passengers."
Southend United used flight bookers Bookajet to charter a Boeing 737-200 from European Aviation Air Charter (EAL).
EAL commercial director Ken Dyer told how the Boeing 737 was forced to ditch some passengers in favour of vital extra fuel. He said: "Southend Airport has a fairly limited performance because of a short runway and when the wind is in a certain direction there is a church spire which interferes with take off."
Ut Sementem Feeceris
I know Southend is short but I find it hard to believe there are performance limitations for such a short flight to CWL with pax and no bags.
I know, I wasn't there etc etc but this doesn't add up.
A4
I know, I wasn't there etc etc but this doesn't add up.
A4
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I have been reading these pages for several days now and feel the need to put in my "two-pence" worth.
I left EAAC just prior to this bombshell, contrary to popular belief it was more luck than judgement, and was on holiday when it happened. I have spoken to HR today to be informed that I shall also have to join the queue for my final salary cheque as the company cannot afford to pay me. i will also have to wait for my P45 as they are not sure whether it is issued by them or the receivers. As you can imagine this is not really the news I wanted to hear, especially as I have started my new job now, but I must live with it. I may have left at the right moment but my timing was flawed!
There are many things that can be said about Paul Stoddart, most of them true, but he has stepped back into EAAC to try and prevent the company from disappearing off of the face of the earth completely.
Yes, his passion is for motor sport and this is where a lot of his attention lies but without him ALL of EAAC's staff would now be out of work. He has been trying to sell the company for 18 months and got back involved when it was all falling apart. He has the interests of European at heart, otherwise he would have let it fold.
If you are looking to place blame then try hunting down the self proclaimed 'Fat B"*@tard' who ran the company into the ground. He must take the majority of the blame along with Travel City, who pulled the SFB contract with 1 days notice, Avon Consulting, who negotiated the SFB contract, the last Flight Ops Director, who was more interested in slagging off everyone else in the company instead of doing his job and the 747 crews who insisted on travelling business class everywhere they went or the mysteriously developed bad backs.
Please do not tar all the 747 crews with the same brush as the majority of them were excellent, and I wish them all the best in the future, but unfortunately the few spoilt it for the many.
I would also like to respond to OpsCat
FYI, more experienced people have been pushed aside for the less experienced, FEMALE wannabees. It is only fair to point out that those remaining on the Ops/Crewing desk have all allegedly at some point had the misfortune of a sexual encounter with the ODM left in charge…..(not you MH…. obviously!) Funny who’s decision it was to pick the employees to remain – again, it’s not what you know but who! Another good decision from the senior staff.
The ODM left in charge did not decide who remained, it was done at a far more senior level than that, and I am sure he would rather like to have had a sexual encounter with all of them, except MH of course, prefereable at the same time but this is just complete fantasy upon your behalf. Unless you can prove what you print do not bother slagging other people off.
Hope I have not upset too many people but I needed to put my views forward.
I would like to wish all of you the best of luck in securing new employment as I made a lot of friends during my 2 years there and I am sure that we will meet again in the future as aviation is a very small world.
GOOD LUCK from the Doctor
I left EAAC just prior to this bombshell, contrary to popular belief it was more luck than judgement, and was on holiday when it happened. I have spoken to HR today to be informed that I shall also have to join the queue for my final salary cheque as the company cannot afford to pay me. i will also have to wait for my P45 as they are not sure whether it is issued by them or the receivers. As you can imagine this is not really the news I wanted to hear, especially as I have started my new job now, but I must live with it. I may have left at the right moment but my timing was flawed!
There are many things that can be said about Paul Stoddart, most of them true, but he has stepped back into EAAC to try and prevent the company from disappearing off of the face of the earth completely.
Yes, his passion is for motor sport and this is where a lot of his attention lies but without him ALL of EAAC's staff would now be out of work. He has been trying to sell the company for 18 months and got back involved when it was all falling apart. He has the interests of European at heart, otherwise he would have let it fold.
If you are looking to place blame then try hunting down the self proclaimed 'Fat B"*@tard' who ran the company into the ground. He must take the majority of the blame along with Travel City, who pulled the SFB contract with 1 days notice, Avon Consulting, who negotiated the SFB contract, the last Flight Ops Director, who was more interested in slagging off everyone else in the company instead of doing his job and the 747 crews who insisted on travelling business class everywhere they went or the mysteriously developed bad backs.
Please do not tar all the 747 crews with the same brush as the majority of them were excellent, and I wish them all the best in the future, but unfortunately the few spoilt it for the many.
I would also like to respond to OpsCat
FYI, more experienced people have been pushed aside for the less experienced, FEMALE wannabees. It is only fair to point out that those remaining on the Ops/Crewing desk have all allegedly at some point had the misfortune of a sexual encounter with the ODM left in charge…..(not you MH…. obviously!) Funny who’s decision it was to pick the employees to remain – again, it’s not what you know but who! Another good decision from the senior staff.
The ODM left in charge did not decide who remained, it was done at a far more senior level than that, and I am sure he would rather like to have had a sexual encounter with all of them, except MH of course, prefereable at the same time but this is just complete fantasy upon your behalf. Unless you can prove what you print do not bother slagging other people off.
Hope I have not upset too many people but I needed to put my views forward.
I would like to wish all of you the best of luck in securing new employment as I made a lot of friends during my 2 years there and I am sure that we will meet again in the future as aviation is a very small world.
GOOD LUCK from the Doctor
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A4 you are right - does not make sense to me. I am a devout Southend fan, but I went by road as i thought it the safest option to avoid just such a disaster.
Fifteen odd yeads ago 737-200 used to take off out of Southend to fly all the way to the Spanish resorts. So how comes on Sunday one could not make it to Cardiff, especially as the pax would have had no baggage, which would free up an extra 1500kgs or so for fuel.
The club are not very happy by all accounts.
Fifteen odd yeads ago 737-200 used to take off out of Southend to fly all the way to the Spanish resorts. So how comes on Sunday one could not make it to Cardiff, especially as the pax would have had no baggage, which would free up an extra 1500kgs or so for fuel.
The club are not very happy by all accounts.
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Crewing Doctor
Your views are admirable but you've got another job and weren't there when 600 were made redundant. If the company had been more informative we may have had more sympathy and there wouldn't be so much bad feeling now. We have always been left in the dark with rumours abound. You try to keep focused on getting another job when you know you aren't going to be paid this month and don't know when you are going to have money to pay the bills and buy food.
It isn't going to stop here and if the company don't come forward with some money many of us will be taking court action.
Your views are admirable but you've got another job and weren't there when 600 were made redundant. If the company had been more informative we may have had more sympathy and there wouldn't be so much bad feeling now. We have always been left in the dark with rumours abound. You try to keep focused on getting another job when you know you aren't going to be paid this month and don't know when you are going to have money to pay the bills and buy food.
It isn't going to stop here and if the company don't come forward with some money many of us will be taking court action.
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thought we had moved on from the playgorund
All i can say is well said Crewing Doctor ... Bravo
Surely if people start trying to take court action then you are in danger of wiping out any chance of the rest of us getting our money. The chances of getting what is legally owed to you is quite high at the moment, but you will just have to sit tight a moment and wait your turn in the queue.
I can't believe how childish some of you are being, if the company was as bad as you make it out to be, then why did you stay !?!
I am thankful for my time at EAAC, as it has truely opened my eyes to how some people interact. And i wish EAAC every success in the future, and hope that one day it will come back stronger and will look to reclaim those that worked for the company not against it!
Surely if people start trying to take court action then you are in danger of wiping out any chance of the rest of us getting our money. The chances of getting what is legally owed to you is quite high at the moment, but you will just have to sit tight a moment and wait your turn in the queue.
I can't believe how childish some of you are being, if the company was as bad as you make it out to be, then why did you stay !?!
I am thankful for my time at EAAC, as it has truely opened my eyes to how some people interact. And i wish EAAC every success in the future, and hope that one day it will come back stronger and will look to reclaim those that worked for the company not against it!
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Everybodies views takes into account, would it not be fair for the company to tell us what is going on ????
I would be happy to know that I would get some money at the end of the month. Most people seem to think that we will get nothing.
More than anything I would like my job back in some shape of form.
Let everyone know what is happening, please.
I would be happy to know that I would get some money at the end of the month. Most people seem to think that we will get nothing.
More than anything I would like my job back in some shape of form.
Let everyone know what is happening, please.
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More questions
There are a lot of questions still unanswered here.
Above all how can European continue to trade without going into administration or receivership if it has not paid us? A “Creditor’s Voluntary Agreement” is all very well but how do you choose which of the creditors to pay or negotiate a “voluntary agreement” with?
I’ve also had some advice from a friend of the family today who reckons that it is going to be very time consuming to claim statutory redundancy payments from the state if the employer hasn’t gone into administration or receivership. The employer has no statutory responsibility under this CVA arrangement to look after its former employees. If it was declared in administration or receivership then any accountant appointed to manage the company’s affairs has a responsibility to all creditors (including staff) rather than just picking and choosing who it looks after. As it stands the company can decide whether to pay us or not.
It is going to take a long long time for an operation with four 737s to earn enough profits to repay all of the debts racked up by eight 737s and five 747s with no bills being paid. This is more than ever before because I can’t see European being able to get new business to keep the smaller 737 fleet busy. If you were a tour operator would you pay money to European for a flight that you didn’t know if it would be able to operate?
I think we’re in for a long haul here if you’ll pardon the pun. Long hauls are exactly what got us into this position in the first place. For those who are left then it’s all very well but I have to ask whether the majority would not be better off if the airline went into formal administration. It could still continue to trade in administration and protect the jobs of those who are left if there is indeed hope of it trading profitably. If there is no hope then they may as well give up now. Administration would also mean that the situation for the majority who have been laid off would be far more straightforward to deal with.
Does anyone know if there is any truth to the rumour that the CVA arrangement has been dreamt up to allow the AOC to be transferred to a newly-formed company with no debts or trading history? If so then this has to rank as one of the most callous acts yet by PGS - a man who has repeatedly taken every penny out of this company to fund his Formula 1 hobby. Is he planning to put any of that money back again….I don’t think so. By shifting everything into European Mk2 then PGS would be able to own a new company with no debts and continue to lease the aircraft that he owns back to that company.
We didn’t establish what got European into this mess in the first place. I read various peoples accounts with interest. The discussion earlier covered Excel’s role in this unhappy situation at European. In spite of Aliens62’s answers back on page 12 of this thread many questions about this too remain unanswered and I have been doing some more research on this. More questions -
Q1) A certain airline’s ramp vehicle was seen around the B747 impounded at LGW on 11 March. Photocopies of the BAA notice impounding the aircraft were doing the rounds of the airport later that day. Where did these come from?
Q2) Aliens62 you state that Excel had a contract with European to fly three B733 lines of flying. “Excel is still seeking to cover one third of this flying” Does this mean that the other two aircrafts work are not real and never were? I see no replacement aircraft has appeared at NCL as an Excel B738 and Islandsflug B734 are still expected as they always were but no replacement for the EAAC B733. I hear what you say about European not honouring contracts it had signed but could Excel have honoured those contracts if EAAC still been in a position to do so.
Q3) When Excel Aviation is the self-styled major charter seat broker in the UK why does it need the services of an intermediary, broker Meridian Aviation (run - as I understand - by a former member of the Excel/Sabre team and the brother-in-law of Excel’s Chief Executive), to buy capacity on its behalf from EAAC? It either means that you cannot achieve the same deals on aircraft that a much smaller operation can – and that is a sad reflection on its negotiating power - or that there is another reason which we cannot see.
Q4) What happened to the EAAC B742 programme of short-haul flights from LGW & MAN that Meridian firmed up apparently on behalf of Excel with Stephen Woodland at EAAC. It does raise the question why Woodland did not stop to consider the old adage about all that glitters not being gold before bringing in two more B742s in anticipation of extra work. From what I can see from my lowly position EAAC has been responsible for its own downfall by placing too much store in a few particular contracts and not developing a wider range of charterers but you would have to be rather thick on the basis of the above not to suspect that some organisations haven’t given it a hefty shove to help it over the edge of the cliff.
That’s it for now. I’m sure there will be more questions as time goes by.
Above all how can European continue to trade without going into administration or receivership if it has not paid us? A “Creditor’s Voluntary Agreement” is all very well but how do you choose which of the creditors to pay or negotiate a “voluntary agreement” with?
I’ve also had some advice from a friend of the family today who reckons that it is going to be very time consuming to claim statutory redundancy payments from the state if the employer hasn’t gone into administration or receivership. The employer has no statutory responsibility under this CVA arrangement to look after its former employees. If it was declared in administration or receivership then any accountant appointed to manage the company’s affairs has a responsibility to all creditors (including staff) rather than just picking and choosing who it looks after. As it stands the company can decide whether to pay us or not.
It is going to take a long long time for an operation with four 737s to earn enough profits to repay all of the debts racked up by eight 737s and five 747s with no bills being paid. This is more than ever before because I can’t see European being able to get new business to keep the smaller 737 fleet busy. If you were a tour operator would you pay money to European for a flight that you didn’t know if it would be able to operate?
I think we’re in for a long haul here if you’ll pardon the pun. Long hauls are exactly what got us into this position in the first place. For those who are left then it’s all very well but I have to ask whether the majority would not be better off if the airline went into formal administration. It could still continue to trade in administration and protect the jobs of those who are left if there is indeed hope of it trading profitably. If there is no hope then they may as well give up now. Administration would also mean that the situation for the majority who have been laid off would be far more straightforward to deal with.
Does anyone know if there is any truth to the rumour that the CVA arrangement has been dreamt up to allow the AOC to be transferred to a newly-formed company with no debts or trading history? If so then this has to rank as one of the most callous acts yet by PGS - a man who has repeatedly taken every penny out of this company to fund his Formula 1 hobby. Is he planning to put any of that money back again….I don’t think so. By shifting everything into European Mk2 then PGS would be able to own a new company with no debts and continue to lease the aircraft that he owns back to that company.
We didn’t establish what got European into this mess in the first place. I read various peoples accounts with interest. The discussion earlier covered Excel’s role in this unhappy situation at European. In spite of Aliens62’s answers back on page 12 of this thread many questions about this too remain unanswered and I have been doing some more research on this. More questions -
Q1) A certain airline’s ramp vehicle was seen around the B747 impounded at LGW on 11 March. Photocopies of the BAA notice impounding the aircraft were doing the rounds of the airport later that day. Where did these come from?
Q2) Aliens62 you state that Excel had a contract with European to fly three B733 lines of flying. “Excel is still seeking to cover one third of this flying” Does this mean that the other two aircrafts work are not real and never were? I see no replacement aircraft has appeared at NCL as an Excel B738 and Islandsflug B734 are still expected as they always were but no replacement for the EAAC B733. I hear what you say about European not honouring contracts it had signed but could Excel have honoured those contracts if EAAC still been in a position to do so.
Q3) When Excel Aviation is the self-styled major charter seat broker in the UK why does it need the services of an intermediary, broker Meridian Aviation (run - as I understand - by a former member of the Excel/Sabre team and the brother-in-law of Excel’s Chief Executive), to buy capacity on its behalf from EAAC? It either means that you cannot achieve the same deals on aircraft that a much smaller operation can – and that is a sad reflection on its negotiating power - or that there is another reason which we cannot see.
Q4) What happened to the EAAC B742 programme of short-haul flights from LGW & MAN that Meridian firmed up apparently on behalf of Excel with Stephen Woodland at EAAC. It does raise the question why Woodland did not stop to consider the old adage about all that glitters not being gold before bringing in two more B742s in anticipation of extra work. From what I can see from my lowly position EAAC has been responsible for its own downfall by placing too much store in a few particular contracts and not developing a wider range of charterers but you would have to be rather thick on the basis of the above not to suspect that some organisations haven’t given it a hefty shove to help it over the edge of the cliff.
That’s it for now. I’m sure there will be more questions as time goes by.
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Witchway
I can understand your frustrations and, even though I do have another job, I also have bills to pay at the end of the month with no salary from EAAC.
I have been advised to take legal action to recover this money but am reluctant to do so as this could very well be the final nail in the coffin for European. The upshot of legal action will be the company going bankrupt, all the remaining staff also losing their jobs, no possibility of a return for those who would be interested and many months of waiting for your money to arrive whilst the administrators liquidate the companies assets and decide who to pay.
The CVA will only be valid for a finite period of time, as in the Leeds United case so recently in the news. There then has to be a solution or the company goes into adminstration. The second phase Hadj money should be through in the none too distant future and all the summer contracts are due to be paid at the beginning of April so there should be an answer soon.
Albert Hall - must say I agree. Excel are in bed with Air Atlanta who were set to benefit most from the demise of EAAC. They managed to lift the SFB contract by offering what has been refered to as the lowest ever rate for a 747. This must be in the hope that European fold and they have carte blanche to charge whatever they want next year. I for one hope it all goes t*ts up for them and the screw things up so badly that TCD dump them before the end of the year. No hard feelings guys but *@#$ the lot of you!
I can understand your frustrations and, even though I do have another job, I also have bills to pay at the end of the month with no salary from EAAC.
I have been advised to take legal action to recover this money but am reluctant to do so as this could very well be the final nail in the coffin for European. The upshot of legal action will be the company going bankrupt, all the remaining staff also losing their jobs, no possibility of a return for those who would be interested and many months of waiting for your money to arrive whilst the administrators liquidate the companies assets and decide who to pay.
The CVA will only be valid for a finite period of time, as in the Leeds United case so recently in the news. There then has to be a solution or the company goes into adminstration. The second phase Hadj money should be through in the none too distant future and all the summer contracts are due to be paid at the beginning of April so there should be an answer soon.
Albert Hall - must say I agree. Excel are in bed with Air Atlanta who were set to benefit most from the demise of EAAC. They managed to lift the SFB contract by offering what has been refered to as the lowest ever rate for a 747. This must be in the hope that European fold and they have carte blanche to charge whatever they want next year. I for one hope it all goes t*ts up for them and the screw things up so badly that TCD dump them before the end of the year. No hard feelings guys but *@#$ the lot of you!