Emirates Direct Entry Commands (merged)
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You're absolutely right, I have been succumbed into taking my eye off the ball.
But in my defence, I will say that it was only because I can't stand the thought of the many good F/O's here who are being disadvantaged, having to fly with someone who doesn't seem to care.
Nevertheless I admit to attacking the man and not the ball, so that's it for me on this thread.
Cop U Later
The Rev
But in my defence, I will say that it was only because I can't stand the thought of the many good F/O's here who are being disadvantaged, having to fly with someone who doesn't seem to care.
Nevertheless I admit to attacking the man and not the ball, so that's it for me on this thread.
Cop U Later
The Rev
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As maxalt says below:
“But afterward, even though I 'passed' and was offered the job, I have to say that the stupidity and insulting nature of the process began to bear down on me, and it did play a part in my decision not to join up.
In short, as others have said, the selection process is a sham, and is (I believe) more aimed at discouraging applications from anyone who might 'have an attitude' and give EK some trouble if they are not getting everything their own way.
A traditional interview with any of the candidates in my group would have produced exactly the same outcome IMHO.”
And as others on this thread have suggested, why exactly do experienced and competent professionals have to jump through the above type of selection hoops that seem to have emerged in our industry, over the past decade or so? I’m not sure that doctors, lawyers, accountants architects etc, etc are required to undergo similar stuff when they move to greener (or less brown) pastures. Could anyone correct me here, if I’m labouring under a delusion?
Finally, I agree that an in-depth and professional selection programme is required to recruit new entrants to aviation – eg. Air Force/Navy/Airline Cadetships – but is exactly the same programme required for seasoned, known quality professionals, such as, in the case of this thread, the DE captains required by EK? (and no, I haven't applied - I'm afraid the money isn't good enough)
“But afterward, even though I 'passed' and was offered the job, I have to say that the stupidity and insulting nature of the process began to bear down on me, and it did play a part in my decision not to join up.
In short, as others have said, the selection process is a sham, and is (I believe) more aimed at discouraging applications from anyone who might 'have an attitude' and give EK some trouble if they are not getting everything their own way.
A traditional interview with any of the candidates in my group would have produced exactly the same outcome IMHO.”
And as others on this thread have suggested, why exactly do experienced and competent professionals have to jump through the above type of selection hoops that seem to have emerged in our industry, over the past decade or so? I’m not sure that doctors, lawyers, accountants architects etc, etc are required to undergo similar stuff when they move to greener (or less brown) pastures. Could anyone correct me here, if I’m labouring under a delusion?
Finally, I agree that an in-depth and professional selection programme is required to recruit new entrants to aviation – eg. Air Force/Navy/Airline Cadetships – but is exactly the same programme required for seasoned, known quality professionals, such as, in the case of this thread, the DE captains required by EK? (and no, I haven't applied - I'm afraid the money isn't good enough)
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I may be wrong on this count, and I'm not trying to defend the company at this point but the lengthy recruitment process may have something to do with all the nationalities we have to work with.
We have something like 50 different nationalities working at EK on the flight deck. This may not be unique, but it certainly is unusual. Along with this 50 different nationalities comes quite a bit of cultural diversity. Like jumping out of the seat just prior to descent to pray for 5 minutes!
The recruiting process puts you with 3 other guys of different cultures and makes the group carry out problem solving exercises. Some of these exercises deliberately pit one team member against the other. The outcome does give a fairly good indication of how any individual can work with others of different cultural backgrounds where language is a problem. And believe me, not everyone can.
Some of you may say "why would language be a problem, as they all speak english". I can tell you there is a huge variation in what can be called English. It can be difficult and frustrating at times trying to communicate your intentions to the guy in the other seat when you are dealing with something out of the ordinary, as we do in the Sim every 6 months.
The actual flying side of things seems to be given only a cursory look. They throw you in the sim for half an hour to see if you can actually fly a big jet. This gives an idea of whether all the hours in the log book are likely to be correct. The tech quiz is simple. So it seems they use the same technique as everyone else when evaluating the pilot. All the touchy feely stuff is to evaluate the man (no girls allowed).
It may be over the top, but it does produce good guys. There are very few d**k heads in EK (management excluded) and I think that is a direct result of the recruiting process.
The need for DE captains has no reflection on the recruiting process. It is a management stuff up which started a couple of years ago, and we are now seeing the results. Having said that, it is now unavoidable if we are to continue the rapid expansion
We have something like 50 different nationalities working at EK on the flight deck. This may not be unique, but it certainly is unusual. Along with this 50 different nationalities comes quite a bit of cultural diversity. Like jumping out of the seat just prior to descent to pray for 5 minutes!
The recruiting process puts you with 3 other guys of different cultures and makes the group carry out problem solving exercises. Some of these exercises deliberately pit one team member against the other. The outcome does give a fairly good indication of how any individual can work with others of different cultural backgrounds where language is a problem. And believe me, not everyone can.
Some of you may say "why would language be a problem, as they all speak english". I can tell you there is a huge variation in what can be called English. It can be difficult and frustrating at times trying to communicate your intentions to the guy in the other seat when you are dealing with something out of the ordinary, as we do in the Sim every 6 months.
The actual flying side of things seems to be given only a cursory look. They throw you in the sim for half an hour to see if you can actually fly a big jet. This gives an idea of whether all the hours in the log book are likely to be correct. The tech quiz is simple. So it seems they use the same technique as everyone else when evaluating the pilot. All the touchy feely stuff is to evaluate the man (no girls allowed).
It may be over the top, but it does produce good guys. There are very few d**k heads in EK (management excluded) and I think that is a direct result of the recruiting process.
The need for DE captains has no reflection on the recruiting process. It is a management stuff up which started a couple of years ago, and we are now seeing the results. Having said that, it is now unavoidable if we are to continue the rapid expansion
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Max Alt To suggest that anyone joining EK as a DEC is a Scab is ludicrous in the extreme. I cannot take anything you say now seriously..
The Rev Dr D Are you too beginning to lose your cool over this DEC business?? I have always found your reports balanced and Yes I agree it must be a shock for those ex Captains who joined as F/O's to find themselves in this position but correct me if I am wrong but any F/O in EK who has the required Wide Body Command hours and total of 10000hrs has been told to make his case for an Upgrade???
As 411A says never go from LHS to RHS unless in desperation and remember once you join an expat Airline you are on your own with no backup.It has always been thus.
High Cirrus Yes the Package is not good as you say. US$6400 per month. Accommodation is a hit and miss affair by all accounts and on a Take it or Lump it basis.
If EK think that seasoned Captains are prepared to play silly games over Three Days in order to satisfy an Empire Building HR Dept which as other people have said proves nothing much then I think they will have trouble attracting the right people.
All of this should please the present emcumbents in EK as the Company might find that not everyone wants to join!! Sure there will be perhaps thousands of applications but every job in Flight Interrnational gets the same response.
White Knight Are you still seeing EK through your Rose Tinted Spectacles???? You have said on many occasions that you joined EK for the Lifestyle and not the Money!! Having now seen what the Payscales are for F/O's in EK I see what you mean!!!! But what kind of Lifestyle can you have on that Money???
The Rev Dr D Are you too beginning to lose your cool over this DEC business?? I have always found your reports balanced and Yes I agree it must be a shock for those ex Captains who joined as F/O's to find themselves in this position but correct me if I am wrong but any F/O in EK who has the required Wide Body Command hours and total of 10000hrs has been told to make his case for an Upgrade???
As 411A says never go from LHS to RHS unless in desperation and remember once you join an expat Airline you are on your own with no backup.It has always been thus.
High Cirrus Yes the Package is not good as you say. US$6400 per month. Accommodation is a hit and miss affair by all accounts and on a Take it or Lump it basis.
If EK think that seasoned Captains are prepared to play silly games over Three Days in order to satisfy an Empire Building HR Dept which as other people have said proves nothing much then I think they will have trouble attracting the right people.
All of this should please the present emcumbents in EK as the Company might find that not everyone wants to join!! Sure there will be perhaps thousands of applications but every job in Flight Interrnational gets the same response.
White Knight Are you still seeing EK through your Rose Tinted Spectacles???? You have said on many occasions that you joined EK for the Lifestyle and not the Money!! Having now seen what the Payscales are for F/O's in EK I see what you mean!!!! But what kind of Lifestyle can you have on that Money???
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Higncirrus (and MaxAlt), seeing as you both have made it abundantly clear that you aren't interested in employment with EK, why are you so concerned about the lengh/validity/credence of the selection process?
You won't be going through it and I'm sure(?) you have more important things to worry about, so in the words of another wise man: "Let it be, let it be..."
You won't be going through it and I'm sure(?) you have more important things to worry about, so in the words of another wise man: "Let it be, let it be..."
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Dumpvalve
Whilst I am completely uninterested in either making an application to, or even joining EK, I am interested in the present and future terms and conditions of both myself and my colleagues in an industry of which you only seem to be a proxy member.
Whilst I am completely uninterested in either making an application to, or even joining EK, I am interested in the present and future terms and conditions of both myself and my colleagues in an industry of which you only seem to be a proxy member.
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millerscourt, what's the difference between "gossip" and "rumour" (as in PPRumourNetwork) anyway? Not much, as I'm sure you'll concede. But you probably think your gossip is of a higher calibre....
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Dumpvalve
Don't let them get to you. Simply put them on your "Ignore" list because they are just a pair of "Wind-up W*****s!" I just shows how desperate they are to try and p**s a few more people off when they start to provoke the Rev. These two are the only ones keeping this topic going but have you noticed the DEC issue isn't even featuring on the EK Pilot's Forum? Good luck and see you around.
Don't let them get to you. Simply put them on your "Ignore" list because they are just a pair of "Wind-up W*****s!" I just shows how desperate they are to try and p**s a few more people off when they start to provoke the Rev. These two are the only ones keeping this topic going but have you noticed the DEC issue isn't even featuring on the EK Pilot's Forum? Good luck and see you around.
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In case you're tempted and find yourself reading this Reverend, no harm done. You are absolved of your sins.
I am affected by and therefore have an interest in what the other pilot thinks about, aspires to, and achieves.
It's not the warm feeling I have for my children, so one might say I don't really 'care'.
Yet that'd be misleading, for it's not entirely correct, and anyway, it's not whether I care or not that matters.
EK are employing DEC's; not to break a strike, a people's spirit, or their right to an association.
EK are doing this as an employer who, for one reason or another, cannot find it within to fill the advance underway.
I'm for growth, not decay. Progress, not regress. Hope, not despair.
It is unfortunate to see plans go awry, especially those of my aviating colleagues, but do you chaps really see the enemy as the DEC?
That's not reasonable.
I feel one more thing should be said. It may be viewed as somewhat harsh, but in light of several comments made by various respondents, I feel it is necessary, perhaps if only to vent my spleen.
No current, experienced Captain entering Emirates in that capacity would brook any interference in the smooth running of his well-trained and effective crew, in EK or otherwise, especially if it came in the guise of a disaffected and disgruntled First Officer.
We would all best be reminded that Emirates would, I assume, be on the lookout for such incidents, and meet them with the full force of an airline who's flight safety is being compromised.
I am affected by and therefore have an interest in what the other pilot thinks about, aspires to, and achieves.
It's not the warm feeling I have for my children, so one might say I don't really 'care'.
Yet that'd be misleading, for it's not entirely correct, and anyway, it's not whether I care or not that matters.
EK are employing DEC's; not to break a strike, a people's spirit, or their right to an association.
EK are doing this as an employer who, for one reason or another, cannot find it within to fill the advance underway.
I'm for growth, not decay. Progress, not regress. Hope, not despair.
It is unfortunate to see plans go awry, especially those of my aviating colleagues, but do you chaps really see the enemy as the DEC?
That's not reasonable.
I feel one more thing should be said. It may be viewed as somewhat harsh, but in light of several comments made by various respondents, I feel it is necessary, perhaps if only to vent my spleen.
No current, experienced Captain entering Emirates in that capacity would brook any interference in the smooth running of his well-trained and effective crew, in EK or otherwise, especially if it came in the guise of a disaffected and disgruntled First Officer.
We would all best be reminded that Emirates would, I assume, be on the lookout for such incidents, and meet them with the full force of an airline who's flight safety is being compromised.
Last edited by Life as a journey; 2nd Oct 2003 at 21:52.
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druckmefunk
Err...there were a few English, a Scotsman, a Welshman and an Irishman on my batch. Now I know the Brits do indeed come from a different culture, but we managed to get by anyhow. 
I once worked at a certain asian company where I saw a few of the types you wouldn't want.
They were mostly thick headed ex RAF types who treated all locals as if they were coolies.
Embarrassing in the extreme.
Aussies seem to have the same bad attitude in smaller degrees.
We Paddys don't have a post imperialist hangover, unlike the Brits. We tend to treat people as we find them, and are pretty tolerant of others, especially when we are guests in their country.
Maybe thats why theres a Paddy running EK, and why they chose Paddys to set it up in the first place.
The recruiting process puts you with 3 other guys of different cultures and makes the group carry out problem solving exercises.
I once worked at a certain asian company where I saw a few of the types you wouldn't want.
They were mostly thick headed ex RAF types who treated all locals as if they were coolies.
Embarrassing in the extreme.
Aussies seem to have the same bad attitude in smaller degrees.
We Paddys don't have a post imperialist hangover, unlike the Brits. We tend to treat people as we find them, and are pretty tolerant of others, especially when we are guests in their country.
Maybe thats why theres a Paddy running EK, and why they chose Paddys to set it up in the first place.
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1.The only criteria that has changed is for accelerated commands. Those of you who are no longer eligible and are upset about the change should realize that you were beneficiaries of a past changed policy that adversely affected people above you on the seniority list. The company sets the criteria according to what it deems sufficient. You can't play both sides of the fence.
2. The 340's that may be coming are in addition to any orders that were announced before you arrived and will not affect your "projected" command date in any way under the normal upgrade rules. It should in fact make the time to command more harmonized with the seniority list.
3. If the company decides that buying a bunch of aircraft at cents on the dollar prices is good business, I for one will trust them as they continue to have the right answers for the time in an extremely difficult industry. We will all benefit from increased market share and more profit.
Try to have a slightly more optimistic outlook on the future of a great company.
Millerscourt, you are a d... if you happen to find yourself in Dubai, you would do best to keep your ignorant and outdated attitudes to yourself. You might find that certain people would "strenuously and vigorously" defend their opposite way of viewing the situation here in Dubai. By the way, assimilating the new SOP, FOM... etc, etc without the assistance of those who you seem to have no regard for will be a task that I'm sure will have you on a one way ticket back to your trailer and third wife in no time.
2. The 340's that may be coming are in addition to any orders that were announced before you arrived and will not affect your "projected" command date in any way under the normal upgrade rules. It should in fact make the time to command more harmonized with the seniority list.
3. If the company decides that buying a bunch of aircraft at cents on the dollar prices is good business, I for one will trust them as they continue to have the right answers for the time in an extremely difficult industry. We will all benefit from increased market share and more profit.
Try to have a slightly more optimistic outlook on the future of a great company.
Millerscourt, you are a d... if you happen to find yourself in Dubai, you would do best to keep your ignorant and outdated attitudes to yourself. You might find that certain people would "strenuously and vigorously" defend their opposite way of viewing the situation here in Dubai. By the way, assimilating the new SOP, FOM... etc, etc without the assistance of those who you seem to have no regard for will be a task that I'm sure will have you on a one way ticket back to your trailer and third wife in no time.
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Aptitude tests are only 'a load of codswallop' if you haven't got any aptitude.
Its like when a guy screws up his PPC, it was always the examiners fault even if his name was Mr Claus, never the guy himself.
Its like when a guy screws up his PPC, it was always the examiners fault even if his name was Mr Claus, never the guy himself.
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Maxalt
Who's the "Paddy" running EK?
Life as a journey
I don't think the threat to the safety of a flight will come from the righthand seat. I expect the REAL danger comes from a "High-houred, highly experienced" Captain who thinks that he will be able muddle on through his short career with Emirates without learning the EK SOP's and that his previous employers' SOP's will suffice. I would have no qualms whatsoever about reporting a DEC for non-compliance of SOP's, not out of malice you understand,but to protect my own arse and the arses' of the several hundred passengers and crew we could be carrying. As previously stated on a similar thread I am so relieved that I didn't volunteer for the A340 fleet.
Millerscourt and High Cirrus.
I see a pattern developing here with regard to responces to your posts. Keep it up,Gentlemen,keep it up!!!
Who's the "Paddy" running EK?
Life as a journey
I don't think the threat to the safety of a flight will come from the righthand seat. I expect the REAL danger comes from a "High-houred, highly experienced" Captain who thinks that he will be able muddle on through his short career with Emirates without learning the EK SOP's and that his previous employers' SOP's will suffice. I would have no qualms whatsoever about reporting a DEC for non-compliance of SOP's, not out of malice you understand,but to protect my own arse and the arses' of the several hundred passengers and crew we could be carrying. As previously stated on a similar thread I am so relieved that I didn't volunteer for the A340 fleet.
Millerscourt and High Cirrus.
I see a pattern developing here with regard to responces to your posts. Keep it up,Gentlemen,keep it up!!!
Last edited by Pontious; 3rd Oct 2003 at 15:53.
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Pontius,
"i would have no qualms in reportng a captain etc etc"
ex air 2000. why does that not surprise me.
see how long you last pulling that crm trick to boost your status.
expat companies are small worlds.
you may not be as anonymous as you think.
yeah your not bitter. whatever mate.
cant wait to hear from you after your first run in with an arab.
first expat job is it...?
enjoy
"i would have no qualms in reportng a captain etc etc"
ex air 2000. why does that not surprise me.
see how long you last pulling that crm trick to boost your status.
expat companies are small worlds.
you may not be as anonymous as you think.
yeah your not bitter. whatever mate.
cant wait to hear from you after your first run in with an arab.
first expat job is it...?
enjoy