Hand flying One Engine Inoperative ILS without Auto Trim
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Hand flying One Engine Inoperative ILS without Auto Trim
Hello everyone,
I am working on my multi-instrument rating. I find it really hard to hand fly One Engine Inoperative ILS without using auto-trim because too many things happen simultaneously at the moment I reduce the power, my zero-side slip attitude will change, and the rudder trim and aileron trim has to be adjusted. Any tips will be much appreciated.
Thanks in advanced!
I am working on my multi-instrument rating. I find it really hard to hand fly One Engine Inoperative ILS without using auto-trim because too many things happen simultaneously at the moment I reduce the power, my zero-side slip attitude will change, and the rudder trim and aileron trim has to be adjusted. Any tips will be much appreciated.
Thanks in advanced!
Take it slow, anticipate the changes and trim accordingly. Practice and practice, then practice some more and it will start to get easier.
There is no magic answer unfortunately.
There is no magic answer unfortunately.
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An experiment:
Try and start from a known power setting for approach that results in the aircraft settling around the target approach speed. If the runway is long enough, perhaps have a target speed that is a certain amount above the chosen minimum approach speed(say ten knots). That way, if the speed is a few knots below the target, there is no need to adjust power as it is still above the minimum. Not sure if the instructor will like that but it could allow for less power changes required to always be exactly on speed. A justification could be that you want to be further away from a situation where a lot of power is required when inevitably getting slow due to turbulence. Does the airspeed really have to be exact on approach with frequent power changes to keep it there when it could be within a 5 or 10 knot range that is not too fast and not too slow with few power changes and less trimming.
Let us know if it works.
Try and start from a known power setting for approach that results in the aircraft settling around the target approach speed. If the runway is long enough, perhaps have a target speed that is a certain amount above the chosen minimum approach speed(say ten knots). That way, if the speed is a few knots below the target, there is no need to adjust power as it is still above the minimum. Not sure if the instructor will like that but it could allow for less power changes required to always be exactly on speed. A justification could be that you want to be further away from a situation where a lot of power is required when inevitably getting slow due to turbulence. Does the airspeed really have to be exact on approach with frequent power changes to keep it there when it could be within a 5 or 10 knot range that is not too fast and not too slow with few power changes and less trimming.
Let us know if it works.
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737 Type Rating Instructor here,
Many cadets with no prior flying experience struggle with this so don't feel too defeated, it's perfectly normal! An exercise I get all my students to do as an introduction to SE handling is a simple SE acceleration and deceleration whilst in level flight. You'll get to appreciate the relationship between thrust and speed with respect to rudder authority so if you get the opportunity, ask the instructor if you can have a go at this. The basic principles you should hopefully take away from this is at low speeds and high thrust/power settings the rudder is not as aerodynamically effective and with the large asymmetry from the engines you will be required to make large rudder inputs. As you accelerate and as the rudder becomes more aerodynamically effective you'll gradually have to squeeze off the rudder and once you hit your target speed you'll be required to reduce thrust/power, consequently you'll have to ease off the rudder whilst maintaining balance.
Repeat those acceleration/deceleration exercises as many times as you need to and try to be as disciplined as possible in maintaining your heading, altitude, keeping the slip indicator centred as much as possible through a good instrument scan and through repetition you'll hopefully find that you'll have a better appreciation of single engine handling and the relationship between thrust, speed and rudder input. Once you've mastered this, doing single engine exercises on departures and approaches will come a lot more naturally and you'll have the capcity to focus on other things.
Best of luck with your training, and try to enjoy it as much as possible
Many cadets with no prior flying experience struggle with this so don't feel too defeated, it's perfectly normal! An exercise I get all my students to do as an introduction to SE handling is a simple SE acceleration and deceleration whilst in level flight. You'll get to appreciate the relationship between thrust and speed with respect to rudder authority so if you get the opportunity, ask the instructor if you can have a go at this. The basic principles you should hopefully take away from this is at low speeds and high thrust/power settings the rudder is not as aerodynamically effective and with the large asymmetry from the engines you will be required to make large rudder inputs. As you accelerate and as the rudder becomes more aerodynamically effective you'll gradually have to squeeze off the rudder and once you hit your target speed you'll be required to reduce thrust/power, consequently you'll have to ease off the rudder whilst maintaining balance.
Repeat those acceleration/deceleration exercises as many times as you need to and try to be as disciplined as possible in maintaining your heading, altitude, keeping the slip indicator centred as much as possible through a good instrument scan and through repetition you'll hopefully find that you'll have a better appreciation of single engine handling and the relationship between thrust, speed and rudder input. Once you've mastered this, doing single engine exercises on departures and approaches will come a lot more naturally and you'll have the capcity to focus on other things.
Best of luck with your training, and try to enjoy it as much as possible
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Getting the trim perfectly dialled in with an engine out takes time. Time I found I didn't have. Instead, I'd get the trim close to where I needed it, and just apply control pressure as necessary. That way, if i get distracted and inadvertently let up on the rudder pressure a bit, we didn't go flying off in some new direction. The change would be slow enough for me to come back and correct it while still maintaining standards.
Out of curiosity, what airplane are you flying that has auto trim?
Out of curiosity, what airplane are you flying that has auto trim?
Don’t be too hard on yourself, there is a lot going on in this situation. I find parallels with learning to juggle.
If you take a young kid who is pretty good at catching and throwing and sit them down in a class room and give them some theory on how to juggle, they will drop the balls the first time they try to implement the theory.
If you give them twenty minutes of instruction and practice they will have some successes but it will take quite a few twenty minute practice sessions before they develop confidence and skill. If they then keep practicing regularly they’ll be able to talk and walk and even make calculations while they are juggling.
This is where you want to end up but it takes practice and currency counts for something.
Another parallel, the kid who got to the ‘walk and talk and calculate’ stage in two days is not necessarily a better juggler than the kid who took three weeks to get to that stage, as long as they are both currently at that stage.
Probably a strange way to look at it but it’s how it seems to me
If you take a young kid who is pretty good at catching and throwing and sit them down in a class room and give them some theory on how to juggle, they will drop the balls the first time they try to implement the theory.
If you give them twenty minutes of instruction and practice they will have some successes but it will take quite a few twenty minute practice sessions before they develop confidence and skill. If they then keep practicing regularly they’ll be able to talk and walk and even make calculations while they are juggling.
This is where you want to end up but it takes practice and currency counts for something.
Another parallel, the kid who got to the ‘walk and talk and calculate’ stage in two days is not necessarily a better juggler than the kid who took three weeks to get to that stage, as long as they are both currently at that stage.
Probably a strange way to look at it but it’s how it seems to me
Why are you using aileron trim? There is no need.
Rudder trim: don’t trim for zero force, keep some pressure into the live engine to keep your brain ’connected’ to the engine. Reduce thrust, reduce foot. Increase thrust, increase foot. If you trim it out completely reducing thrust creates a requirement for rudder that is opposite all of a sudden which is asking for confusion in your head. Don’t get into that situation.
We train the same on 737. Even on a 777, the thrust assymetry compensation is designed to force the pilot to keep some rudder pressure into the live engine and avoid confusion.
Rudder trim: don’t trim for zero force, keep some pressure into the live engine to keep your brain ’connected’ to the engine. Reduce thrust, reduce foot. Increase thrust, increase foot. If you trim it out completely reducing thrust creates a requirement for rudder that is opposite all of a sudden which is asking for confusion in your head. Don’t get into that situation.
We train the same on 737. Even on a 777, the thrust assymetry compensation is designed to force the pilot to keep some rudder pressure into the live engine and avoid confusion.
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Imagine that your foot on the active engine side is attached to your thrust lever/throttle. If you increase thrust you push in more rudder at the same time and visa versa. The other important thing is keep the control wheel level. If it's not level you either have too much or not enough rudder in. Step on the downside. In other words, if your controls are turned to the right to keep you going straight, step on the right to straighten the controls. Always be thinking to adjust your feet to keep the controls level. Good luck. We've all been there.
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Hello everyone,
I am working on my multi-instrument rating. I find it really hard to hand fly One Engine Inoperative ILS without using auto-trim because too many things happen simultaneously at the moment I reduce the power, my zero-side slip attitude will change, and the rudder trim and aileron trim has to be adjusted (…)!
I am working on my multi-instrument rating. I find it really hard to hand fly One Engine Inoperative ILS without using auto-trim because too many things happen simultaneously at the moment I reduce the power, my zero-side slip attitude will change, and the rudder trim and aileron trim has to be adjusted (…)!
I never trim for absolute neutral on the rudder. like others have written above, I like to keep a little bit of pressure on the ‘live’-pedal to keep my brain in the loop at all times.
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Use Rudder Trim Gradually: Instead of making large adjustments to the rudder trim at once, make smaller, incremental changes. This allows you to gauge the effect on the aircraft's heading and maintain better control. Small adjustments are easier to manage and result in a smoother transition.
Maintain Proficiency: Regular practice is key. The more you practice OEI ILS approaches, the more confident and proficient you'll become in managing the various elements simultaneously.
My keyword : Trim then handsoff. Trim again and handsoff
Maintain Proficiency: Regular practice is key. The more you practice OEI ILS approaches, the more confident and proficient you'll become in managing the various elements simultaneously.
My keyword : Trim then handsoff. Trim again and handsoff
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Thank you so much everyone, for the advice and insights you shared, now I have a much better sense about OEI controlling techniques and I can't wait to practice the methods you suggested, incredible insights.
By the way, the aircraft I am learning to fly is a Cessna 310R with GFC600 Autopilot, which have auto-trim and rudder-bias, I want to be able to handle the aircraft without using those automations. Thanks again to everyone, your tips were like golds for this newbie pilot.
By the way, the aircraft I am learning to fly is a Cessna 310R with GFC600 Autopilot, which have auto-trim and rudder-bias, I want to be able to handle the aircraft without using those automations. Thanks again to everyone, your tips were like golds for this newbie pilot.
It helps a lot to do everything s l o w l y and to try to only change one thing at a time. What really matters is tracking the localiser and glideslope; speed and trim are also important but secondary to this.
Monitor trends. If you need to make an adjustment to pitch/power, coordinate it in yaw manually, keep the wings where you want them with aileron, let everything stabilise, *then* trim (if you feel the need). Trying to be in perfect trim absolutely all the time is a) unnecessary and b) impossible. Again, it’s the path through the sky that is important, not that you’re a little bit sideways or holding some rudder or aileron input temporarily. Putting most of your concentration into one aspect (trim) will generally lead to lower performance in other areas (approach tracking, speed control). It’s OK to be out of trim for a bit!
Once established on the approach, unless it is really turbulent and/or windy, it shouldn’t take much in the way of adjustments to carry on straight down the ILS. Small corrections, made in a reasonable timeframe. If you are using a FD, nail it.
Monitor trends. If you need to make an adjustment to pitch/power, coordinate it in yaw manually, keep the wings where you want them with aileron, let everything stabilise, *then* trim (if you feel the need). Trying to be in perfect trim absolutely all the time is a) unnecessary and b) impossible. Again, it’s the path through the sky that is important, not that you’re a little bit sideways or holding some rudder or aileron input temporarily. Putting most of your concentration into one aspect (trim) will generally lead to lower performance in other areas (approach tracking, speed control). It’s OK to be out of trim for a bit!
Once established on the approach, unless it is really turbulent and/or windy, it shouldn’t take much in the way of adjustments to carry on straight down the ILS. Small corrections, made in a reasonable timeframe. If you are using a FD, nail it.
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Hello everyone,
I am working on my multi-instrument rating. I find it really hard to hand fly One Engine Inoperative ILS without using auto-trim because too many things happen simultaneously at the moment I reduce the power, my zero-side slip attitude will change, and the rudder trim and aileron trim has to be adjusted. Any tips will be much appreciated.
Thanks in advanced!
I am working on my multi-instrument rating. I find it really hard to hand fly One Engine Inoperative ILS without using auto-trim because too many things happen simultaneously at the moment I reduce the power, my zero-side slip attitude will change, and the rudder trim and aileron trim has to be adjusted. Any tips will be much appreciated.
Thanks in advanced!
Don't fly with the trim, set the correct attitude with yoke and rudder to give you the desired profile then trim out the stick forces. Don’t keep trimming you need to find the required control input first. Of course any alteration of power will upset the equilibrium so try to set power and leave it alone. Also be aware of any automatic rudder boosts/bias that may be active when asymmetric and whether they are incremental or not.
