ICE ON WINGS
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Joined: Dec 1998
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From: UK
ICE ON WINGS
Sorry its a bit blurred
I posted this here as I hope to get some sensible professional opinions.
It was well below freezing outside, and I assumed we would be deiced, but the doors closed and we started pushing back. I asked the cabin crew to advise the flight deck that they still had a fair bit of ice on the wings. They came back and advised me that the Captain has checked and the wings are clear and we are not being deiced. What should I have done?
Joined: Jan 2018
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From: Amantido
Two days ago our wings had way less ice than that yet we de-iced. That was on a 737-400. The NG wing is different and some CSFF icing may be allowed within a restricted area indicated by black lines on the upper surface of the wing and if approved to do so. That in the picture seems to be an Airbus so maybe there are some different guidances for it...
Joined: Nov 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: UK
It is difficult to tell if that is icing, but the general rule is that the wing upper surface should be clear of all contamination. When the wings were checked, perhaps they were clear, and maybe the ice formed later. However, the Captain is supposed to check before take-off that the aircraft is still clear of contamination. The engineers often check the wings in the first place and order de-icing if required, and/or an agency is employed to predict icing conditions. In theory, the cabin crew will tell the flight deck if there are any changes or concerns before take-off, and in the airlines I have flown for, this would be taken seriously by the flight deck.
The OP could have stood up and banged on the cockpit door and refused to sit down until the aircraft had been de-iced, but that would take big b*lls.
Can a passenger send an ASR to the company or CAA?
The OP could have stood up and banged on the cockpit door and refused to sit down until the aircraft had been de-iced, but that would take big b*lls.
Can a passenger send an ASR to the company or CAA?
Joined: Mar 2012
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From: Having a margarita on the beach
Sorry its a bit blurred
I posted this here as I hope to get some sensible professional opinions.
It was well below freezing outside, and I assumed we would be deiced, but the doors closed and we started pushing back. I asked the cabin crew to advise the flight deck that they still had a fair bit of ice on the wings. They came back and advised me that the Captain has checked and the wings are clear and we are not being deiced. What should I have done?
As a pax nothing else to do, You’ve done Your part. Had there been a few cm of snow over the wings You could have banged on the door.
Write an email to the customer relations with the picture and they’ll deal with it.
Joined: Sep 2010
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: by the seaside
Basically its illegal.
In all of my outfits only a transparent layer of hoar frost on the underside of the wing caused by cold fuel tanks was allowed and nothing else.
I was sent up front by my captain as I was the only pilot dead heading in uniform with a North African carrier.
He had spotted clear ice which our company engineer had missed. The crew had through tankered, they returned to the ramp and deiced twice to clear the ice.
One of our colleagues climbed onto the wing of the aircraft he was dead heading on as there was more than an inch of snow and the crew told him to mind his own business. Aircraft returned to the ramp and he spent a couple of nights in jail. Its not just the Russians that play silly buggars.
I was sent up front by my captain as I was the only pilot dead heading in uniform with a North African carrier.
He had spotted clear ice which our company engineer had missed. The crew had through tankered, they returned to the ramp and deiced twice to clear the ice.
One of our colleagues climbed onto the wing of the aircraft he was dead heading on as there was more than an inch of snow and the crew told him to mind his own business. Aircraft returned to the ramp and he spent a couple of nights in jail. Its not just the Russians that play silly buggars.
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: Florida
It's up to the pilot to decide if what a passenger sees is ice/snow accumulations on the wing upper surface. The passenger can report what they see but are not expected to be able to over-rule the crew. The photos above don't convince me one way or the other. Nor would I attempt to argue it further once reported to the crew.
Joined: Sep 2010
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: by the seaside
Interesting perspective
Passenger spots contamination on wing ..crew decides that its irrelevant despite it being illegal!
Back to the Munich disaster where it got three inquires to exonerate the crew. Yes I know it was slush but the similarity is that it is venturing into the unknown.
But once the doors are closed the captain's word is law which doesnt mean he can get away with it especially if it is reported.
If I had doubts whether lhs or rhs I would go back with a torch and check the wings regardless.
Wasnt there an aircraft that ended up in the Pontiac?
Back to the Munich disaster where it got three inquires to exonerate the crew. Yes I know it was slush but the similarity is that it is venturing into the unknown.
But once the doors are closed the captain's word is law which doesnt mean he can get away with it especially if it is reported.
If I had doubts whether lhs or rhs I would go back with a torch and check the wings regardless.
Wasnt there an aircraft that ended up in the Pontiac?
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 134
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From: expat
The clean concept is internationally standardised throughout the industry now.
But the there are are still blockheads who disregard the rules because “..Hell yeah, it’ll fly; We took much worse back in the day when I flew in...”
As this crew are about to discover; passengers have these things called “mobile phones” with great cameras these days.
PS. Refuelling with warm fuel is only useful for melting frost that has formed above cold soaked fuel. It won’t clear frost or precipitate that has formed on the rest of the flying and control surfaces.
But the there are are still blockheads who disregard the rules because “..Hell yeah, it’ll fly; We took much worse back in the day when I flew in...”
As this crew are about to discover; passengers have these things called “mobile phones” with great cameras these days.
PS. Refuelling with warm fuel is only useful for melting frost that has formed above cold soaked fuel. It won’t clear frost or precipitate that has formed on the rest of the flying and control surfaces.
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 645
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From: Canada
Flew with a Captain that swore if you turned on Wing Anti Ice at top of descent and kept it on until parked it would stop the formation of hoar frost on the wing due to cold soaked fuel and would save the next crew from deicing. We had to deice the next day and he went on about his method. Wonder if anyone has come across this theory, especially given that wing anti ice only heats up the leading edge.
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,633
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From: USA
Sorry its a bit blurred
I posted this here as I hope to get some sensible professional opinions.
It was well below freezing outside, and I assumed we would be deiced, but the doors closed and we started pushing back. I asked the cabin crew to advise the flight deck that they still had a fair bit of ice on the wings. They came back and advised me that the Captain has checked and the wings are clear and we are not being deiced. What should I have done?
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,166
Likes: 86
From: Planet Earth
Passenger spots contamination on wing ..crew decides that its irrelevant despite it being illegal!
Back to the Munich disaster where it got three inquires to exonerate the crew. Yes I know it was slush but the similarity is that it is venturing into the unknown.
But once the doors are closed the captain's word is law which doesnt mean he can get away with it especially if it is reported.
If I had doubts whether lhs or rhs I would go back with a torch and check the wings regardless.
Wasnt there an aircraft that ended up in the Pontiac?
Back to the Munich disaster where it got three inquires to exonerate the crew. Yes I know it was slush but the similarity is that it is venturing into the unknown.
But once the doors are closed the captain's word is law which doesnt mean he can get away with it especially if it is reported.
If I had doubts whether lhs or rhs I would go back with a torch and check the wings regardless.
Wasnt there an aircraft that ended up in the Pontiac?
No,
there was an Air Florida 737 that ended up in the Potomac however
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 381
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From: Qwerty
The biggest error that day, amongst many, was failing to turn on the engine anti ice so the engine instruments suggested that they had the correct thrust set but the engine's were actually producing considerably less. However the wing had some snow and ice on, the de-icing truck had non approved replacement parts so it didn't spray the correct mix, the captain tried to use the exhaust from another aircraft to melt snow on his own aircraft making the situation worse as it quickly re froze, they sat for over 40 minutes in heavy snow waiting to depart and the FO expressed his concerns that the aircraft was not accelerating properly on the take off roll and that something was wrong but they still continued.
Last edited by Council Van; 9th December 2019 at 08:04.
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 6
Likes: 3
From: ME
It's up to the pilot to decide if what a passenger sees is ice/snow accumulations on the wing upper surface. The passenger can report what they see but are not expected to be able to over-rule the crew. The photos above don't convince me one way or the other. Nor would I attempt to argue it further once reported to the crew.
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 496
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From: Ziltoidia... indeed'd.
I know I am going to get a beating for saying this but here it goes anyway:
I wish I could see more respect for a decision that was made by a fellow professional pilot. This is a rumor network, granted, but the OP still knows the flight number and the airline and might try to get the crew flying that day into trouble, all because someone in the internet that is supposedly a pilot is saying - from the comfort of his/her home - that, based on a blurry picture, procedures were not followed, proper checks were not carried out, and safety was compromised.
If the passenger is truly concerned he/she should have contacted the relevant authorities upon arrival, not an internet forum.
If I had to take seriously all the comments and recommendations from passengers that I have received while operating as a pilot I would have landed in the middle of a typhoon, would have hold until below minimum fuel, would have given painkillers from the FAK to one of them without having the slightness clue of his health, and would have been doing long but soft landings regardless of the landing performance calculations.
As usual pilots are their own...
I wish I could see more respect for a decision that was made by a fellow professional pilot. This is a rumor network, granted, but the OP still knows the flight number and the airline and might try to get the crew flying that day into trouble, all because someone in the internet that is supposedly a pilot is saying - from the comfort of his/her home - that, based on a blurry picture, procedures were not followed, proper checks were not carried out, and safety was compromised.
If the passenger is truly concerned he/she should have contacted the relevant authorities upon arrival, not an internet forum.
If I had to take seriously all the comments and recommendations from passengers that I have received while operating as a pilot I would have landed in the middle of a typhoon, would have hold until below minimum fuel, would have given painkillers from the FAK to one of them without having the slightness clue of his health, and would have been doing long but soft landings regardless of the landing performance calculations.
As usual pilots are their own...
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 597
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From: cardiff
From all the foregoing...all you can do on the day is report to crew or ask to get off. After the event anyone is free to report anything to their local authority, and that would be best channel anyways rather than an open internet forum.
Ttfn
Ttfn