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ICE ON WINGS

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ICE ON WINGS

Old 9th Dec 2019, 12:51
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by iggy View Post
I know I am going to get a beating for saying this but here it goes anyway:

I wish I could see more respect for a decision that was made by a fellow professional pilot. This is a rumor network, granted, but the OP still knows the flight number and the airline and might try to get the crew flying that day into trouble, all because someone in the internet that is supposedly a pilot is saying - from the comfort of his/her home - that, based on a blurry picture, procedures were not followed, proper checks were not carried out, and safety was compromised.
OK, I’ll bite.

As you know, in aviation we generally pride ourselves on discovering the causes of accidents or almost-accidents, so that whatever the reasons were, lessons can be learned. The crew will only “get into trouble” if they deliberately do something wrong, e.g. refuse to de-ice. Wing upper surfaces must be completely clear of contamination. Are they? Difficult to tell from the photo, but I can see white patches which can only be frozen water of one kind or another.

Remember the Potomac river disaster, where there were a whole catalogue of errors in icing conditions.

If the passenger is truly concerned he/she should have contacted the relevant authorities upon arrival, not an internet forum.
The passenger was truly concerned but did not know what to do or who the relevant authorities are and is trying to find out.

If I had to take seriously all the comments.... .
”Captain, there is still ice on the top of your wings”...................
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Old 9th Dec 2019, 13:58
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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The OP took care not to identify the flight and hence the crew.
Their post is not mischievous or fishing.
If they now contact the airline involved the correct processes will presumably be followed to review if a mistake was actually made and to correct any deficiencies if necessary.
Itís not malicious, itís constructive.
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Old 9th Dec 2019, 17:58
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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It might be ice, it might be not. I have it many times these days that the fuel temperature is around 1-2 degrees, we have some moisture in the air with low temperatures close to freezing and the only thing you find on the wing is a thin layer of water. Maybe the crew had somebody do a clear Ice check and they didnt see the necessity for a de-ice.
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Old 9th Dec 2019, 23:10
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FFbubus View Post
No but they can ask to be offloaded if not convinced by the answer, That might pressure the crew enough to do the right thing...
Or, alternatively, it could pressure the pax to not say anything. Who wants to be off-loaded on the last flight of the day....
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Old 9th Dec 2019, 23:35
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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One of my former colleagues was operating a flight from a new station with no de-icing equipment. A passenger objected about the contaminated wings to a cabin crew member. I don’t recall if the message got passed to the flight deck. Anyway...most of them died right after Vr, including the crew members concerned.
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Old 10th Dec 2019, 17:50
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by hans brinker View Post
Or, alternatively, it could pressure the pax to not say anything. Who wants to be off-loaded on the last flight of the day....
*I* would - if I had seen ice on the wings and believed the crew was ignoring it. I'd rather be alive and stuck somewhere an extra day.
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Old 10th Dec 2019, 20:35
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Itíll be OK. Just a bit of frost.

N90AG

The AAIB report on N90AG at BHX makes for a sobering read.

Never let a crew take you to the end of the runway with ice on top of the wings.
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Old 11th Dec 2019, 10:04
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Personally, I would have come out and had a look myself.

Anyway, if you want to see a real eye opener take a look at the following China Airlines clip:

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Old 11th Dec 2019, 13:43
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by no sponsor View Post
Personally, I would have come out and had a look myself.

Anyway, if you want to see a real eye opener take a look at the following China Airlines clip:

https://youtu.be/D6OjSd3ojHE
What's your point? It's snowing out.It happens often
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Old 11th Dec 2019, 16:15
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by lomapaseo View Post
What's your point? It's snowing out.It happens often
Wings covered with snow and no anti-ice fluid.
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Old 11th Dec 2019, 21:12
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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China Airlines 747 takeof with apparantly contaminated wing

This video was posted on this thread.

Is China Airlines exempt from the clean wing policy? Is there something I'm missing here?
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Old 11th Dec 2019, 21:42
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Thereís a lot of information we donít know. When was it de-iced. What was the fluid mix. What was the holdover time. In heavy precipitation the wing could well have snow on post de-icing but still be protected. I doubt they would have departed in those conditions without having considered winter SOPs.
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Old 11th Dec 2019, 21:55
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Vessbot View Post
Wings covered with snow and no anti-ice fluid.
Itís difficult to see whatís on the wing. How can you tell they havenít been de-iced from that video?
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Old 11th Dec 2019, 22:59
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Flying Wild View Post
In heavy precipitation the wing could well have snow on post de-icing but still be protected..
No.
If the treated surfaces starts to collect snow, the anti-icing is no more.
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Old 11th Dec 2019, 22:59
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Flying Wild View Post
Thereís a lot of information we donít know. When was it de-iced. What was the fluid mix. What was the holdover time. In heavy precipitation the wing could well have snow on post de-icing but still be protected. I doubt they would have departed in those conditions without having considered winter SOPs.
uh, no. When the anti-icing film is compromised by accumulation of snow its time to get another spray job. Thatís what you are actually looking for in a pre-takeoff inspection.
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Old 11th Dec 2019, 23:26
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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I'd be curious to know what the reported visibility was. Even if the critical surfaces had been treated, which is far from obvious, the snowfall intensity seems likely to be in excess of anything for which there's a published holdover time.
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Old 11th Dec 2019, 23:30
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Capi_Cafre' View Post
I'd be curious to know what the reported visibility was. Even if the critical surfaces had been treated, which is far from obvious, the snowfall intensity seems likely to be in excess of anything for which there's a published holdover time.
It certainly looks scary. We should remember, though, that the video was shot though a long (telephoto) lens, which compresses whatever is in the air between camera and subject. Still, there's obviously a lot of snow falling.
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Old 11th Dec 2019, 23:42
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Icing conditions and snow accumulations donít affect B registered airplanes....
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Old 11th Dec 2019, 23:57
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Airbus can have hoarfrost on the top surface of the tanks with cold soaked fuel, even on a 20C day, and many A types are approved for takeoff in that condition as the chief pilot of a former employer advised me after I put in a query. Of course lift from that small section of the wing is next to nothing, but the rest of the wing still works.

Dry snow accumulation on an already cold wing during taxi with air temperature below 0C will blow off.

Other cases can be problematic.

There are combinations of wing, air and precipitation temperature that demand de-icing with a holdover time, generally when the precip sticks to the wing. I remember being seated over the wing. We were de-iced at the gate in ORD and joined the conga line. In the early takeoff acceleration, the entire blanket of snow slid off the wings and joined the pile left by departing aircraft.

Everything above 0C is good as is everything well below 0C.
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Old 12th Dec 2019, 00:37
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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That aircraft’s slats, wings, tail were definitely contaminated and in Canada that would have been an illegal takeoff.
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