ICE ON WINGS

[sonicbum]

Originally Posted by RatherBeFlying

Airbus can have hoarfrost on the top surface of the tanks with cold soaked fuel, even on a 20C day, and many A types are approved for takeoff in that condition as the chief pilot of a former employer advised me after I put in a query. Of course lift from that small section of the wing is next to nothing, but the rest of the wing still works.

Dry snow accumulation on an already cold wing during taxi with air temperature below 0C will blow off.

Other cases can be problematic.

There are combinations of wing, air and precipitation temperature that demand de-icing with a holdover time, generally when the precip sticks to the wing. I remember being seated over the wing. We were de-iced at the gate in ORD and joined the conga line. In the early takeoff acceleration, the entire blanket of snow slid off the wings and joined the pile left by departing aircraft.

Everything above 0C is good as is everything well below 0C.
​

RatherBeFlying You would rather be deicing too.

[Dan_Brown]

The moment you takeoff, or attempt to take off with any wing contamination, you become a test pilot. Period, as there are no two cases of contamination, the same.That is all you need to know. So, you owe to your passengers and crew, not to take the risk.

[Check Airman]

Originally Posted by Capt Fathom

It’s difficult to see what’s on the wing. How can you tell they haven’t been de-iced from that video?

If they have, the fluid must have been applied very sparingly, as it’s usually quite easy to see. As other posters have noted, even so, snow is clearly collecting on the wing, indicating it’s no longer effective.

[Vessbot]

Originally Posted by Capt Fathom

It’s difficult to see what’s on the wing. How can you tell they haven’t been de-iced from that video?

​​​​​​In North America where I fly, anti-ice (not deice) fluid is garish neon colors so that you can tell it's there. Honest question, is this not true elsewhere?

[4runner]

Originally Posted by Airmann

Flew with a Captain that swore if you turned on Wing Anti Ice at top of descent and kept it on until parked it would stop the formation of hoar frost on the wing due to cold soaked fuel and would save the next crew from deicing. We had to deice the next day and he went on about his method. Wonder if anyone has come across this theory, especially given that wing anti ice only heats up the leading edge.

In addition to just the leading edge, it can actually cause more ice to form behind the protected area. If you use wing deice as anti ice, ice can form, then be melted off, to refreeze again behind the leading edge. That’s from a FCOM of one of the Boeing’s I’ve flown.

[4runner]

Originally Posted by Vessbot

​​​​​​In North America where I fly, anti-ice (not deice) fluid is garish neon colors so that you can tell it's there. Honest question, is this not true elsewhere?

dude, look in your deice manual. There’s 4 types of fluid and they have different colors.

[4runner]

Originally Posted by Dorf

It will fly.

https://youtu.be/5GIU94dg1ek

the Russians have done this with CRJ-200’s they got cheap, with catastrophic results.

[jmmoric]

Well, if you get below minus 20 or something like that, no de-icing will help in case of freezing rain or some odd similar circumstances...

Hold over time is 0...

We've tried it a few times, and traffic just stops, and everyone go back in for a cup of coffee.

[armchairpilot94116]

Originally Posted by no sponsor

Personally, I would have come out and had a look myself.

Anyway, if you want to see a real eye opener take a look at the following China Airlines clip:

https://youtu.be/D6OjSd3ojHE

This was five years ago.

[Capt Fathom]

Yep!
Old news!

[Vessbot]

Originally Posted by 4runner

dude, look in your deice manual. There’s 4 types of fluid and they have different colors.

I asked about elsewhere in the world... where there are different suppliers, regulations, etc. The assumption that everything is the same everywhere is often a naive one.

[Checkmate]

Firstly thank you all for keeping it civil. Obviously I know which carrier it was, but it won't ever be mentioned here, as I have taken it up with senior management at the airline and I will contact the associated authority in due course if I don't get a suitable reply.

My intention is not to cause anyone any harm, but to throw my pebble into the pond and get everyone thinking about ice and cold weather ops in the N hemisphere this time of year.

And if you really want to know what I did:

I mentioned it to the cabin crew who contacted the flight deck, who said the wing is clear and they will tow back on to the stand shutdown and let me off if that is what I want, and that is what I did. I decided that if I would not take that contaminated wing myself as Capt, I would not fly as a passenger. As I left the aircraft the FO came to the flight deck door and I explained politely why I was not happy to fly with them.

To the best of my knowledge the aircraft was never deiced, not one member of the crew ever took a look at the wing, and the aircraft departed as seen, and arrived at its destination just a few mins behind schedule.

Oh and just in case, I am in my 60's with +30,000hr having flown in The Air Force, and commercially for 40y (Check Airman/TRE B747/777/787) and currently fly the B787, but in this case does it really matter? What would YOU have done as a member of the crew or pax?

That is the end of it on this forum from me.

I hope you all fly safe, and if I have made just one aviator take a second look at their cold weather ops procedures, I have achieved my aim.

Thanks

[4runner]

Originally Posted by Vessbot

I asked about elsewhere in the world... where there are different suppliers, regulations, etc. The assumption that everything is the same everywhere is often a naive one.

I’m an international 767 Captain. It’s the same everywhere for a reason. That doesn’t mean it’s available in all types, but the colors and components are universal. That’s why it’s in the aircraft and company manuals.

[hans brinker]

Originally Posted by 4runner

I’m an international 767 Captain. It’s the same everywhere for a reason. That doesn’t mean it’s available in all types, but the colors and components are universal. That’s why it’s in the aircraft and company manuals.

I flew international too! It was on a B1900, flew between Florida and the Bahama's. Never had to deice tho....

What I really mean to say: you can explain something without sounding like a donkey.

[hans brinker]

Originally Posted by 4runner

dude, look in your deice manual. There’s 4 types of fluid and they have different colors.

In 20 years I have only used I and IV.

[Bergerie1]

Checkmate, Good on yer! I agree with you 100%

[Busserday]

Air Florida in the Potomac was engine icing not airfoil contamination. Crew set EPR but failed to cross check N1 and the rest is history.

[Intrance]

Originally Posted by hans brinker

In 20 years I have only used I and IV.

In 10 years of flying I have used Type I, II and IV. Damn, only need type III and I'll be 100% more experienced in half the time. /s

[anson harris]

Air Florida in the Potomac was engine icing not airfoil contamination. Crew set EPR but failed to cross check N1 and the rest is history.

Let's not forget the deicing crew used different rigs with very different fluids fluids on either side. Additionally the crew exceeded their holdover time and didn't go back to deice because they didn't want to be late. They then sat behind a DC9 in an attempt to deice themselves which caused clear ice to form on the wings and nose.

[tdracer]

Originally Posted by Busserday

Air Florida in the Potomac was engine icing not airfoil contamination. Crew set EPR but failed to cross check N1 and the rest is history.

The EPR error due to the lack of engine anti-ice was the primary problem, but loss of lift due to wing contamination was a contributing factor.