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ICE ON WINGS

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ICE ON WINGS

Old 14th Dec 2019, 16:59
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Airmann View Post
Flew with a Captain that swore if you turned on Wing Anti Ice at top of descent and kept it on until parked it would stop the formation of hoar frost on the wing due to cold soaked fuel and would save the next crew from deicing. We had to deice the next day and he went on about his method. Wonder if anyone has come across this theory, especially given that wing anti ice only heats up the leading edge.
It never ceases to amaze me how many underestimated geniuses populate the world of aviation
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Old 14th Dec 2019, 17:24
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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There was a write up on an DC10/MD11 over Russia that wasnít given clearance to descend due to fuel temp. The F/O suggested wing device, over the next hour(s) the temp came up enough to allow them to continue2-3 degrees.
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Old 14th Dec 2019, 17:37
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rigpiggy View Post
There was a write up on an DC10/MD11 over Russia that wasnít given clearance to descend due to fuel temp. The F/O suggested wing device, over the next hour(s) the temp came up enough to allow them to continue2-3 degrees.
Good for them.
Aviation is a very cool and lasting game if you play by the rules. If people start making their own it generally bites their arses sooner or later.
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Old 15th Dec 2019, 00:25
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by hans brinker View Post
I flew international too! It was on a B1900, flew between Florida and the Bahama's. Never had to deice tho....

What I really mean to say: you can explain something without sounding like a donkey.
ok. No donkey sounds. Itís an ATP question too...also, different type fluids have different shear values.
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Old 15th Dec 2019, 03:57
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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Probably the pilots should have ordered a deicing in the first place but I wonder if the management or the captain ever asked the cabin crew if he/she has any form of technical knowledge/ training to substantiate his/her call that there was ice on the wing? Can he/she differentiate rime ice, clear ice, hoar froze etc?

As the captain, we are all trained to manage this sort of risk (with the copilot support) and make the appropriate judgement, the last thing I need is a cabin crew to second guess my decision at the takeoff position. Of course, plus the sh!t that the management throw at us after that.
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Old 15th Dec 2019, 10:20
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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flightleader, I might be missing something in your post but what does it matter what form of frozen water is on the top of your wings? The top of the wings must be clear of contamination, whatever that may be.

Do you brief your cabin crew regarding wing contamination? If not, how do you check your wings are clear before taking off?

the last thing I need is a cabin crew to second guess my decision at the takeoff position.
That is a very worrying statement. CRM?
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Old 15th Dec 2019, 19:52
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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CRM

We used to check in 20 mins early, check with dispatch, security, load control and met then go to the cabin crew briefing giving them the full picture, what we expected from them and how we could help each other improve the service and safety.
No rank Bull, no sir Bull and no up our own posteriors.
If the CC was in doubt then off I went with a tourch and in full smart uniform including bonnet to have a deco myself.
Its what our pax paid for, service and safety.
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Old 17th Dec 2019, 06:52
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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Uplinker,

CRM is not about ‘rights’ to speak up! It is the appropriate participation at the appropriate time for a common goal, which is safety in aviation.

Do you think calling the cockpit while the aircraft is on the runway is a safe thing to do?

I am sure if the captain was not doing the right thing the copilot would have corrected him. Icing can happen on aircraft even in clear blue sky such as descending with cold fuel in tanks. Do you want cabin crew to call you about it? Or engine nacelles icing while crisscrossing those altocumulus, you want them to call too? Has the cabin crew been trained in these too?

Once the cabin crew interfered with the pilots operational decisions, the pilots had to do the most conservative action to defend themselves against any potential inquiry and associate repercussions. That is the real deal of life in the airline.
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Old 17th Dec 2019, 10:19
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by flightleader View Post
Once the cabin crew interfered with the pilots operational decisions, the pilots had to do the most conservative action to defend themselves against any potential inquiry and associate repercussions. That is the real deal of life in the airline.
I strongly disagree. The PIC should make decisions based on all available info. If a cabin crew members is concerned, then this should be taken seriously and addressed. This may mean delaying a departure to double-check that all is ok and explaining to the cabin crew member why all is ok. The final decision rests with the PIC. There should never be a need for a PIC to do something that is unnecessary such as deicing an aircraft that doesn't require deicing, just to satisfy a cabin crew member or "cover his a..s". I certainly never felt that I had to do this in my 15 years as PIC.
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Old 17th Dec 2019, 10:59
  #70 (permalink)  

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Mostly everywhere cabin colleagues are trained. That includes the concept of sterile cockpit during taxi-out, the meaning of "seats for departure" call or similar, and the rejected takeoff drill. The necessary insight on tasks and workload of the pilots is included.

They won't call the front office just for losing facebook connectivity on their mobiles. While the practical application would vary should the day come, a CC call to FD during the roll below 100 kt is a good trigger to reject.

-------

The original picture that started this thread is non-environmental icing - upper wing frost. And about the most severe case I remember ever seeing, flying the same type for a few years. The next morning after this thread started, we de-iced for the same phenomenon except due to only 1/4 cover compared to the pic above (going would be still illegal). By the our crew arrived at the A/C after an overnight stay, the de-icing equipment was already waiting without being ordered, such clear cut the case was. Judging from the fluid patches all around, several planes got the treatment and had departed already.


Last edited by FlightDetent; 17th Dec 2019 at 13:59.
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Old 17th Dec 2019, 11:13
  #71 (permalink)  

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A different day and plane, shot through jetty windows while paxing. One of them is water condensation which IMHO cannot be confirmed from the photo as it is, the other .... anyone's guess.




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Old 20th Dec 2019, 02:46
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FlightDetent View Post
a CC call to FD during the roll below 100 kt is a good trigger to reject.


you gonna reject a take off at 100 knots to take a phone call?

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Old 20th Dec 2019, 12:35
  #73 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by Gin Jockey View Post

you gonna reject a take off at 100 knots to take a phone call?
That's not what I suggested, is it?
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Old 21st Dec 2019, 08:05
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Dan_Brown View Post
https://youtu.be/fMZaMmUWj3o

Another example of the persons on board being part of the test flight program. Don't assume the snow or slush will be blown off the top surface of the wing. Low pressure = low temperature? Once the aircraft starts moving the temperature drop may just be enough to make it stick. Nuf said.
The stick shaker will shake the snow off.....
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Old 24th Dec 2019, 09:38
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by flightleader View Post
Uplinker,

Do you think calling the cockpit while the aircraft is on the runway is a safe thing to do?


Depends what the problem is doesn’t it? A well trained and properly briefed crew* will only call if there is a very serious problem. “There are flames around the engine”, or “some fluid is pouring from the wing”, would be quite good to know before releasing the brakes and pushing the thrust levers forward. Regarding wing contamination, a final check that the wings are clear should be made before lining up. If you do not want any comments from your cabin crew, how do you achieve this?, (given that you cannot see your own wings from the cockpit). Open the DV window?

I am sure if the captain was not doing the right thing the copilot would have told him.
So......CRM only applies to the copilot now? (And the copilot can somehow see the all of the wing from the cockpit?).

Icing can happen on aircraft even in clear blue sky such as descending with cold fuel in tanks. Do you want cabin crew to call you about it? Or engine nacelles icing while crisscrossing those altocumulus, you want them to call too? Has the cabin crew been trained in these too?
OK, so you are flying along, in and out of icing conditions. You are of course selecting engine, and maybe wing anti-ice on and off as appropriate. Your No1 rings through to say ‘sorry to bother you but there seems to be a big build up of ice around the front of one of the engines’. Or along the front of one of the wings. (An anti-ice valve has failed shut). Or ‘there is fluid streaming out from behind the wing’. Are you really, seriously telling me that you would not want to know this?

Once the cabin crew interfered with the pilots operational decisions..........

(my bold)

I really think you need to attend a CRM course !

NB: CRM means CREW Resource Management, i.e. the whole aircrew. NOT Copilot Resource Management, nor Captain Resource Management.

One day, your cabin crew might notice something important and help prevent an incident becoming an accident, or even save your life.

Safe flying.

*I have been in three airlines, one European, two International. The cabin crew training in all three was excellent, including CRM.
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Old 25th Dec 2019, 05:29
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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Uplinker,

There is no need to get into a state of piloerection. All I am saying is, the cabin crew input has to be timely, the information has to be factually credible.

I have been flying commercial jets for 30 years and more than 20 years in command, if a wing needs to be inspected before lining up for takeoff, I would trust the copilot or the augmenting pilots to do it instead of the cabin crew.

By the way, my crew can place a call that has different level urgency to me. It would display as ‘CABIN ALERT’ or just a usual ‘ CABIN CALL’.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
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