UPS cargo crash near Birmingham AL
How often do the trees on the approach path get measured and have their tops cut?
There is a point just to the southeast of Imtoy that shows on the original GPS chart of 915ft with a + and - next to it. On the later chart this has been changed to 921 ft again with the + and -. Interstingly the same point is depicted on the current GPS 36 chart as 915 ft +-. This to me shows some sloppiness in the editing of the charts.
There is a point just to the southeast of Imtoy that shows on the original GPS chart of 915ft with a + and - next to it. On the later chart this has been changed to 921 ft again with the + and -. Interstingly the same point is depicted on the current GPS 36 chart as 915 ft +-. This to me shows some sloppiness in the editing of the charts.
Last edited by tubby linton; 18th Aug 2013 at 19:49.
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Some memorial information on one of the pilots is here:
UPS plane crash: Pilot Shanda Carney Fanning's funeral, life celebration planned | al.com
UPS plane crash: Pilot Shanda Carney Fanning's funeral, life celebration planned | al.com
The current LOC18 chart also shows this point as 915+-.. It is only six feet but it is only that last six feet which will kill you.Again to me it shows poor editing.
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At this point it seems we can be fairly certain that the airplane started striking trees about a mile from the threshold, at an altitude somewhere around 300 feet or more below MDA, 150 feet or more below the PAPI, and at least 100 feet above airport TDZE.
So the question becomes "how did they arrive at that point, that far below the MDA and that far below the commissioned slope of the PAPI?"
Not to disparage anyone's efforts, but trying to refine those numbers any more precisely doesn't seem to change the overall scenario.
So the question becomes "how did they arrive at that point, that far below the MDA and that far below the commissioned slope of the PAPI?"
Not to disparage anyone's efforts, but trying to refine those numbers any more precisely doesn't seem to change the overall scenario.
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The trees in the area look fairly mature which means they will remain at that height until they fall or are felled.
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Originally Posted by Tubby Linton
The current LOC18 chart also shows this point as 915+-.. It is only six feet but it is only that last six feet which will kill you.Again to me it shows poor editing.
Last edited by A Squared; 18th Aug 2013 at 20:30.
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I wonder if the trees involved in the crash are only 40 or 50 feet?
I think he said the trees were 60-70 feet tall. There is a photo somewhere.
My point was about the general editing standards of the FAA charts. Comparing them to the Jepp charts on the LOC 18 chart a point is shown at 910 ft SouthWest of the approach course ,but on the GPS chart a point is shown at 921 ft but further to the Southeast than the point shown on the FAA chart.
I have always been told that Jepp basically replicates the chart published by the state aviation authority but with their own formatting so why is my 915/921 feet point not shown correctly.
The Jepp chart for 36 does not show the point at all.
I have always been told that Jepp basically replicates the chart published by the state aviation authority but with their own formatting so why is my 915/921 feet point not shown correctly.
The Jepp chart for 36 does not show the point at all.
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Sorry Dog was actually at the site of the tree strike at Mrs Benson's house.
I think he said the trees were 60-70 feet tall. There is a photo somewhere.
I think he said the trees were 60-70 feet tall. There is a photo somewhere.
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but I think he has a valid point directed at the quality control of reasonably important documents.
How would you describe "acceptable quality control" for sets of measured data?
I would suggest that it would be something like "correct to within the accuracy tolerances demanded by the purpose"
Seem reasonable?
OK, now, if you were preparing to fly a localizer approach to 18 and you noted the highest obstacle between the FAF and the runway showed a charted elevation of 921' How would you fly that approach differently than if that same obstacle had shown an elevation of 915' ?
If your answer is "exactly the same" then perhaps the quality control is within the standard I suggested?
Surely a pilot should have information as to all of the charted obstacles relating to their approach? At this airfield we have two chart sources that cannot agree as to which obstacles they are going to depict or the accuracy of the data.
Having cleared the undershoot area why has the airport not provided approach lighting? Perhaps they never intended it to be used regularly at night or in poor weather.
Standard minima as used in Europe does not allow the LOC approach to be used at night.
Another airfield I can think of that has steep terrain in the undershoot is Lanzarote on RW21. Even this airfield has HIALS and a papi set at 3.7 degrees for that runway.
Having cleared the undershoot area why has the airport not provided approach lighting? Perhaps they never intended it to be used regularly at night or in poor weather.
Standard minima as used in Europe does not allow the LOC approach to be used at night.
Another airfield I can think of that has steep terrain in the undershoot is Lanzarote on RW21. Even this airfield has HIALS and a papi set at 3.7 degrees for that runway.
Last edited by tubby linton; 18th Aug 2013 at 22:05.
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The runway has a PAPI. Assuming it was functioning as commissioned, (Unknown at this point) the accident would not have happened if they were on the PAPI.
I'll ask you: how would you fly the approach differently if you knew the obstacle was 921 ft vice 915?
Again, I would suggest if you wouldn't fly ten any differently, they you're getting wrapped around the axle over something of no consequence.
Did you happen to notice that the elevations in question are annotated with a plus-minus symbol. What is the significance of that?* and how does that affect how you would fly this procedure.
I'll ask you: how would you fly the approach differently if you knew the obstacle was 921 ft vice 915?
Again, I would suggest if you wouldn't fly ten any differently, they you're getting wrapped around the axle over something of no consequence.
Did you happen to notice that the elevations in question are annotated with a plus-minus symbol. What is the significance of that?* and how does that affect how you would fly this procedure.
Last edited by A Squared; 18th Aug 2013 at 22:09.
Latest info from the NTSB says ...
The autopilot was on until seconds before the impact and so were the auto throttle. The wording in the two different sentences is a bit confusing but the quote from the NTSB says it was on at impact.
For those type rated on the A300, is there an AFM restriction on how low you can fly with the A/P engaged on a non precision approach?
Copy and paste from the article...
BIRMINGHAM, Alabama (Reuters) - The UPS cargo jet that crashed in Alabama this week, killing its two crew members, was flying on autopilot until seconds before impact, even after an alert that it was descending too quickly, authorities said on Saturday
"The autopilot was engaged until the last second of recorded data," said Robert Sumwalt, a senior official with the National Transportation Safety Board.
He said information retrieved by investigators from the flight data recorder aboard the United Parcel Service jet showed that its auto throttle also was engaged until moments before the fiery crash.
The Airbus A300 jet was approaching the runway at Birmingham-Shuttlesworth airport before dawn on Wednesday when it clipped the trees in an adjacent residential area and crashed into a steep embankment well short of the runway.
Sumwalt, who spoke at a media briefing near the crash site, had said on Friday that the pilots received a low altitude warning barely seven seconds before the sound of impact. He repeated that in his remarks on Saturday but did not say whether the alert had triggered any attempt by the crew members to disengage the autopilot as part of a last-ditch attempt to abort landing and re-gain altitude.
The pilots did not issue a distress call.
Sumwalt stopped short of saying there was anything unusual about a so-called "instrument approach" to the airport using autopilot.
But he said the NTSB would be looking closely into "UPS's instrument approach procedures" and how it typically went about guiding a large cargo hauler to touchdown on Birmingham-Shuttleworth's Runway 18.
That's the runway the UPS jet was approaching when it crashed and Sumwalt said the investigation would include a flight test at the airport in a UPS A300.
Kevin Hiatt, president and chief executive officer of the Flight Safety Foundation, an Alexandria, Virginia-based international watchdog group, told Reuters in an interview on Thursday that a "full instrument" landing was not highly advisable at Birmingham-Shuttlesworth.
The airport can be tricky to land at because it is nestled among hills and that is especially true of Runway 18, said Hiatt.
Hiatt, a former Delta Airlines pilot, said he had touched down on the runway many times himself.
"It is not a full instrument landing. You have to visually fly into that runway," he said. "Sometimes it takes nuance to land there. You have to realize that hill is there or you could come in too low."
The crash occurred shortly before dawn in rainy conditions as low-lying clouds hung over Birmingham.
So far, Sumwalt said there was nothing to indicate the crash was caused by engine failure or any mechanical issues.
He also said the runway lights were examined and found to have been "within one one-100th of a degree of being properly aligned" at the time of the crash.
UPS has identified the dead crew members Cerea Beal Jr., 58, of Matthews, North Carolina, and Shanda Fanning, 37, of Lynchburg, Tennessee.
As a standard part of any accident investigation, Sumwalt said the NTSB was looking into the physical and mental well being of Beal and Fanning in the 72 hours before the accident.
Beal, the captain of the downed aircraft, had about 8,600 hours total flying experience, including more than 3,200 hours in the Airbus A300, according to the NTSB.
For those type rated on the A300, is there an AFM restriction on how low you can fly with the A/P engaged on a non precision approach?
Copy and paste from the article...
BIRMINGHAM, Alabama (Reuters) - The UPS cargo jet that crashed in Alabama this week, killing its two crew members, was flying on autopilot until seconds before impact, even after an alert that it was descending too quickly, authorities said on Saturday
"The autopilot was engaged until the last second of recorded data," said Robert Sumwalt, a senior official with the National Transportation Safety Board.
He said information retrieved by investigators from the flight data recorder aboard the United Parcel Service jet showed that its auto throttle also was engaged until moments before the fiery crash.
The Airbus A300 jet was approaching the runway at Birmingham-Shuttlesworth airport before dawn on Wednesday when it clipped the trees in an adjacent residential area and crashed into a steep embankment well short of the runway.
Sumwalt, who spoke at a media briefing near the crash site, had said on Friday that the pilots received a low altitude warning barely seven seconds before the sound of impact. He repeated that in his remarks on Saturday but did not say whether the alert had triggered any attempt by the crew members to disengage the autopilot as part of a last-ditch attempt to abort landing and re-gain altitude.
The pilots did not issue a distress call.
Sumwalt stopped short of saying there was anything unusual about a so-called "instrument approach" to the airport using autopilot.
But he said the NTSB would be looking closely into "UPS's instrument approach procedures" and how it typically went about guiding a large cargo hauler to touchdown on Birmingham-Shuttleworth's Runway 18.
That's the runway the UPS jet was approaching when it crashed and Sumwalt said the investigation would include a flight test at the airport in a UPS A300.
Kevin Hiatt, president and chief executive officer of the Flight Safety Foundation, an Alexandria, Virginia-based international watchdog group, told Reuters in an interview on Thursday that a "full instrument" landing was not highly advisable at Birmingham-Shuttlesworth.
The airport can be tricky to land at because it is nestled among hills and that is especially true of Runway 18, said Hiatt.
Hiatt, a former Delta Airlines pilot, said he had touched down on the runway many times himself.
"It is not a full instrument landing. You have to visually fly into that runway," he said. "Sometimes it takes nuance to land there. You have to realize that hill is there or you could come in too low."
The crash occurred shortly before dawn in rainy conditions as low-lying clouds hung over Birmingham.
So far, Sumwalt said there was nothing to indicate the crash was caused by engine failure or any mechanical issues.
He also said the runway lights were examined and found to have been "within one one-100th of a degree of being properly aligned" at the time of the crash.
UPS has identified the dead crew members Cerea Beal Jr., 58, of Matthews, North Carolina, and Shanda Fanning, 37, of Lynchburg, Tennessee.
As a standard part of any accident investigation, Sumwalt said the NTSB was looking into the physical and mental well being of Beal and Fanning in the 72 hours before the accident.
Beal, the captain of the downed aircraft, had about 8,600 hours total flying experience, including more than 3,200 hours in the Airbus A300, according to the NTSB.
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WAG - High on profile, Open Descent or selected V/S, APPR inadvertently armed instead of LOC (setting mental expectation of G/S capture), no glidepath to capture so aircraft continued in descent until 1sec(?) before impact when A/P is disengaged.
I've seen it happen several times in the past 13 years on the A320. Capture from above with no floor on the descent. Easy to fix if you catch it in time.
I've seen it happen several times in the past 13 years on the A320. Capture from above with no floor on the descent. Easy to fix if you catch it in time.
Last edited by AKAAB; 18th Aug 2013 at 22:12.
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Surely a pilot should have information as to all of the charted obstacles relating to their approach?
They grow, they stop growing, bits fall off them they are bigger when they have leaves and smaller when they lose them.
They grow no more than a few feet a year so there is no point in chasing exact heights when you are not supposed to come within 100 feet of them in the first place?
A Squared I would fly the approach with my head looking out. Having seen a previous link to a video the undershoot are is dark and featurelss and I would be concentrating on trying to build a visual picture of where I was.
This crew really had nothing to help them. The terrain doesn't appear to have had any warning lights lights on it, the DME was showing a meaningless distance to the threshold, there were no approach lights only some very basic runway lights and the papis. The approach may have not been in the kit so it would be LOC and V/S without any electronic vertical guidance.
The area around and to the south of the runway appears to be well lit but they had the localizer for lateral guidance. Were they hanging on to the autopilot whilst they were trying to find the threshold in amongst all of the lights? The call on the CVR "Runway in Sight" may possibly confirm this.
The minimum altitude to use V/S is 160ft agl on approach.
This crew really had nothing to help them. The terrain doesn't appear to have had any warning lights lights on it, the DME was showing a meaningless distance to the threshold, there were no approach lights only some very basic runway lights and the papis. The approach may have not been in the kit so it would be LOC and V/S without any electronic vertical guidance.
The area around and to the south of the runway appears to be well lit but they had the localizer for lateral guidance. Were they hanging on to the autopilot whilst they were trying to find the threshold in amongst all of the lights? The call on the CVR "Runway in Sight" may possibly confirm this.
The minimum altitude to use V/S is 160ft agl on approach.
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Originally Posted by Tubby Linton
Having cleared the undershoot area why has the airport not provided approach lighting?
Standard minima as used in Europe does not allow the LOC approach to be used at night.
Last edited by A Squared; 18th Aug 2013 at 22:31.
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I would fly the approach with my head looking out.
I guess that I've flown too many non-precision approaches over completely unlighted terrain to runways with nothing more than edge lights and a VASI to view this as recklessly dangerous.
Last edited by A Squared; 18th Aug 2013 at 22:36.