AF 447 Thread No. 9
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A33Zab;
Yes, I agree with that, and thanks.
I think OK465 is looking very carefully at "all" the other combinations to ensure that what is being said here actually matches the sim. Will be interesting if a difference is found.
IMO they mean: activated (in NORMAL LAW θ <-15° or θ >25/30°)
This is outside APs own Operational Conditions θ >10° and θ <22° which are also valid in ALTERNATE.
This is outside APs own Operational Conditions θ >10° and θ <22° which are also valid in ALTERNATE.
I think OK465 is looking very carefully at "all" the other combinations to ensure that what is being said here actually matches the sim. Will be interesting if a difference is found.
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PJ2 wrote at 20th Jul 2012 18:27
The changes required are not ours alone to make, and they are not all merely “technical”.
B-Schools and an MBA degree do not teach business leaders about the principles of aviation, perhaps nor should they. But those entering aviation at the executive level do not innately possess an understanding of how high-risk enterprises are made safe and they need to to be able to provide leadership in non-finance areas of an aviation operation.
The changes required are not ours alone to make, and they are not all merely “technical”.
B-Schools and an MBA degree do not teach business leaders about the principles of aviation, perhaps nor should they. But those entering aviation at the executive level do not innately possess an understanding of how high-risk enterprises are made safe and they need to to be able to provide leadership in non-finance areas of an aviation operation.
At least doctors and pilots should know better than relying completely on error-prone gizmos.
When executives don't understand the field they're in, it's limbo based on short-term profits. To those guys, AF447 will hopefully be an indication how the bar can't go lower wrt pilot training.
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(Edited to add – In fact, when the legal costs are finally added up for Air France, I would not be at all surprised if the savings in training with no manual flying at cruise altitude, lack of UAS comprehension, poor CRM etc. are exceeded by the costs.)
[* - Comrade Dozy uses imperialist denomination for ease of reference...
]
Last edited by DozyWannabe; 21st Jul 2012 at 11:25.
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That sounds like a large discrepancy, but what's the all-up manufacturing cost of an A330-200 (including development) per unit sold?
What I know is that Air France (and also the French government) can buying many A330 disregard of the high price .. and Airbus .. have the expected benefits as required
So the expenditure of 18 million Euros for research is a small amount of money for all concerned
Although on a purely economic point of view it is an investment without direct profitability ... this must be considered an investment that can improve safety .. and therefore can generate income in the future
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Originally Posted by kwateow #406
You probably have a lot of automation in your car, but the manufacturer doesn't explain in detail how it works.
It remains your responsibility to not to drive it negligently into the trees, killing your passengers.
It remains your responsibility to not to drive it negligently into the trees, killing your passengers.
You are crazy ? I only fly my bicycle !
Sky and birds over my head, and not destroying flowers, insects, trees ! Better for pleasure, for health, for money, for safety, for ecology, for confort : turn-and-bank indicator always OK!
And I never found a car able to take-off reaching some speed !
I have always been very estonished to see my friends not understanding the automation on their car...
and almost all former cockpit colleagues unable and not having curiosity 
to understand the systems of their aircraft ! (French civil aviation)
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Aviation safety and bankers or beancounters
It is fashionable to analyze aviation and all events in the light of the economy. It needs to be tried, but this seems to me erroneous :
1 Aviation has NEVER been a source of profit for airlines.
2. But a lot of money circulates, and attracts gangsters, who use all their dishonesty up to recover.
3. The economy itself is now completely distorted by incompetent financers, and finance is unrepresentative of reality.
4. The civilian and military aviation is primarily strategic, leading politics and managers to denigrate the laws of physics, and to sacrifice justice for her
and sometimes AF447...
1 Aviation has NEVER been a source of profit for airlines.
2. But a lot of money circulates, and attracts gangsters, who use all their dishonesty up to recover.
3. The economy itself is now completely distorted by incompetent financers, and finance is unrepresentative of reality.
4. The civilian and military aviation is primarily strategic, leading politics and managers to denigrate the laws of physics, and to sacrifice justice for her
and sometimes AF447...
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CONF iture,
Re the "prends ça" exclamations: Otelli attributes the ones at 2:11:55 and 2:11:57 to the captain, whereas the BEA attributes them to the PNF. I would think the BEA version is correct.
Otelli writes that, from 2:11:57 on, the instrument readings alternated between valid and invalid (intermittent "Non Computed Data" condition) "when the AOA increased or decreased below 41 degrees....depending on whether the copilot pulled back or relaxed his grip on the joystick".
When, at 2:12:04.3, Bonin thought they were doing a "crazy speed" and started to deploy the speed brakes, they were actually doing 90 knots. Robert, who was PF, disabused him of this idea in short order. At that moment, according to Otelli, they were just below FL300 and descending at 15300 ft/min.
At 2:12:17 and FL250, Bonin took over the controls. From 2:12:27.4 to 2:12:32.4 there was a period of confusion as to whether they were climbing or descending.
Judging by Otelli's account, the pilots seemed to be aware of their altitude at least most of the time (and certainly below FL100), although at 2:12:45 Bonin asks what the altitude is. Robert responds, "What do you mean?". No reply from Bonin. They were at or just below FL200.
Lastly, I don't know of any link to the AF447 CVR part of Otelli's book. The chapter on AF447 occupies about 1/3 of the book. The rest of the book deals with Air India Express 212 and 812, Spanair JKK 5022, Vladivostok Avia 352 (Tu-154), and Korean 804.
Re the "prends ça" exclamations: Otelli attributes the ones at 2:11:55 and 2:11:57 to the captain, whereas the BEA attributes them to the PNF. I would think the BEA version is correct.
Otelli writes that, from 2:11:57 on, the instrument readings alternated between valid and invalid (intermittent "Non Computed Data" condition) "when the AOA increased or decreased below 41 degrees....depending on whether the copilot pulled back or relaxed his grip on the joystick".
When, at 2:12:04.3, Bonin thought they were doing a "crazy speed" and started to deploy the speed brakes, they were actually doing 90 knots. Robert, who was PF, disabused him of this idea in short order. At that moment, according to Otelli, they were just below FL300 and descending at 15300 ft/min.
At 2:12:17 and FL250, Bonin took over the controls. From 2:12:27.4 to 2:12:32.4 there was a period of confusion as to whether they were climbing or descending.
Judging by Otelli's account, the pilots seemed to be aware of their altitude at least most of the time (and certainly below FL100), although at 2:12:45 Bonin asks what the altitude is. Robert responds, "What do you mean?". No reply from Bonin. They were at or just below FL200.
Lastly, I don't know of any link to the AF447 CVR part of Otelli's book. The chapter on AF447 occupies about 1/3 of the book. The rest of the book deals with Air India Express 212 and 812, Spanair JKK 5022, Vladivostok Avia 352 (Tu-154), and Korean 804.
roulishollandais;
Re, "It is fashionable to analyze aviation and all events in the light of the economy. It needs to be tried, but this seems to me erroneous :
"1 Aviation has NEVER been a source of profit for airlines.
"
I certainly agree with that!
"2. But a lot of money circulates, and attracts gangsters, who use all their dishonesty up to recover.
"
It depends upon one's definition of what and who a "gangster" is. If we're talking organized crime and money laundering, perhaps, but the influence of such activity upon industry decision-making and priorities would be minor compared to those processes in place to maintain high levels of safety. Depends upon the country. If we are talking "banksters" however, then, apropos your #3 comment, I would obviously agree.
"3. The economy itself is now completely distorted by incompetent financers, and finance is unrepresentative of reality.
"
"4. The civilian and military aviation is primarily strategic, leading politics and managers to denigrate the laws of physics, and to sacrifice justice for her
and sometimes AF447..."
Yes, agree; that's roughly the point I'm making.
Clearly my post is not entirely a Tech topic so I won't pursue it other than in the context of the original post. Thanks for your response though.
Re, "It is fashionable to analyze aviation and all events in the light of the economy. It needs to be tried, but this seems to me erroneous :
"1 Aviation has NEVER been a source of profit for airlines.
"I certainly agree with that!
"2. But a lot of money circulates, and attracts gangsters, who use all their dishonesty up to recover.
"It depends upon one's definition of what and who a "gangster" is. If we're talking organized crime and money laundering, perhaps, but the influence of such activity upon industry decision-making and priorities would be minor compared to those processes in place to maintain high levels of safety. Depends upon the country. If we are talking "banksters" however, then, apropos your #3 comment, I would obviously agree.
"3. The economy itself is now completely distorted by incompetent financers, and finance is unrepresentative of reality.
""4. The civilian and military aviation is primarily strategic, leading politics and managers to denigrate the laws of physics, and to sacrifice justice for her
and sometimes AF447..."Yes, agree; that's roughly the point I'm making.
Clearly my post is not entirely a Tech topic so I won't pursue it other than in the context of the original post. Thanks for your response though.
A33Zab & MM43:
The system functions as expected in Normal Law.
It is in ALTERNATE Law as a result of ADR disagreement, with no characteristic speed info displayed on the PFD's (SPD LIM) and at least 2 ADR's within <20 knots that the A/P pb will engage below the same VLS value checked in NORMAL Law. CAS<VLS (not displayed).
It is still possibly a sim anomaly however.
I was just curious, as were others, about this functionality as a result of the Captain's comment late in the CVR transcript. The question does not specifically address that comment of course.
That said however, the A/P would have been the last thing on my mind at that point.
Are you able to verify this in NORMAL LAW condition in the sim?
AP & A/THR off,
NORMAL Law (to make sure VLS available),
fly CAS<VLS-5 and then try to engage AP....?
AP & A/THR off,
NORMAL Law (to make sure VLS available),
fly CAS<VLS-5 and then try to engage AP....?
It is in ALTERNATE Law as a result of ADR disagreement, with no characteristic speed info displayed on the PFD's (SPD LIM) and at least 2 ADR's within <20 knots that the A/P pb will engage below the same VLS value checked in NORMAL Law. CAS<VLS (not displayed).
It is still possibly a sim anomaly however.
I was just curious, as were others, about this functionality as a result of the Captain's comment late in the CVR transcript. The question does not specifically address that comment of course.
That said however, the A/P would have been the last thing on my mind at that point.
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P87
The reappearance of the flight directors on the PFD when two airspeeds are calculated as similar may prompt the crew to promptly engage an autopilot. However, although the magnitude of these speeds may be the same, they may be erroneous and low, and could cause the autopilot to command flight control surface movements that are incompatible with the aircraft’s actual speed.
The reappearance of the flight directors on the PFD when two airspeeds are calculated as similar may prompt the crew to promptly engage an autopilot. However, although the magnitude of these speeds may be the same, they may be erroneous and low, and could cause the autopilot to command flight control surface movements that are incompatible with the aircraft’s actual speed.
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Rockhound,
Please, would you quote as it appears in the Otelli's book, the comment made by the captain some 90 minutes before the end when he's mentioning the cumulonimbus clouds ?
Please, would you quote as it appears in the Otelli's book, the comment made by the captain some 90 minutes before the end when he's mentioning the cumulonimbus clouds ?
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@OK465:
It is still possibly a sim anomaly however.
The available manuals/documentation however don't mention this behaviour.
The manuals mention the FE part of FMGEC needs only 1 valid ADR to calculate the characteristic speeds and 2 valid ADRs for the FG functions of FMGEC.
(to calculate VLS, FE needs Vs1g from PCPC which was in ALT2B)
XTRAIT DU RAPPORT DIFFUSE PAR AIR CARAÏBES ATLANTIQUE
A 22H24 et 41S, « l’AP2 » est réengagé.
---
A 22H50 et 22H53 on enregistre respectivement les alarmes « AUTO FLT FM1(2) FAULT ».
Ces alarmes résultent des « RESET » des deux « FMGEC » lesquels visent l’élimination du « SPD LIM » « RED FLAG » et la récupération des informations « VLS » sur les deux « PFD ».
A 22H24 et 41S, « l’AP2 » est réengagé.
---
A 22H50 et 22H53 on enregistre respectivement les alarmes « AUTO FLT FM1(2) FAULT ».
Ces alarmes résultent des « RESET » des deux « FMGEC » lesquels visent l’élimination du « SPD LIM » « RED FLAG » et la récupération des informations « VLS » sur les deux « PFD ».
Last edited by A33Zab; 23rd Jul 2012 at 06:12.
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CONF,
According to Otelli, at 00:44:49 the captain says:
On va pas se laisser emmerder par des cunimbs...This differs from the BEA final report transcript:
On n'a pas été emmerdé par les cunimb hein
Personally, use of the past tense in the latter doesn't make sense to me. Otelli's version seems to me more likely.
Otelli prefaces the quote with the comment that the forecast of prominent, laterally extensive but broken cunim lasting several hours seemed not to trouble the captain very much.
Just after the captain spoke, a flight attendant enters the cockpit and enquires about the temperature in the hold. Apparently she has some perishables (a ham) in her suitcase and would like to have the temperature lowered a little. Bonin agrees to do so.
According to Otelli, at 00:44:49 the captain says:
On va pas se laisser emmerder par des cunimbs...This differs from the BEA final report transcript:
On n'a pas été emmerdé par les cunimb hein
Personally, use of the past tense in the latter doesn't make sense to me. Otelli's version seems to me more likely.
Otelli prefaces the quote with the comment that the forecast of prominent, laterally extensive but broken cunim lasting several hours seemed not to trouble the captain very much.
Just after the captain spoke, a flight attendant enters the cockpit and enquires about the temperature in the hold. Apparently she has some perishables (a ham) in her suitcase and would like to have the temperature lowered a little. Bonin agrees to do so.
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CONF,
According to Otelli, at 00:44:49 the captain says:
On va pas se laisser emmerder par des cunimbs...This differs from the BEA final report transcript:
On n'a pas été emmerdé par les cunimb hein
According to Otelli, at 00:44:49 the captain says:
On va pas se laisser emmerder par des cunimbs...This differs from the BEA final report transcript:
On n'a pas été emmerdé par les cunimb hein
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/48977...ml#post7285724
Any answers about the meteo ?
Last edited by jcjeant; 22nd Jul 2012 at 14:29.
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Originally Posted by Rockhound
On n'a pas été emmerdé par les cunimb hein
Personally, use of the past tense in the latter doesn't make sense to me. Otelli's version seems to me more likely.
Personally, use of the past tense in the latter doesn't make sense to me. Otelli's version seems to me more likely.
The Captain Dubois' family could maybe 'question' ... Mr Otelli to know who is really editing anything ?
Who has provided data to Mr Otelli ?
Were they accurate or already edited ... ?
By whom ?
For what purpose ?
Or is the BEA really playing with the data ?
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AP
IMO it is very likely some attempts were made during the 4 minutes period to reengage an AP especially as FD commands were available at times and no one seemed to know what has to be done with the controls.
Only the constant deflection of one sidestick may have prevented the AP to engage.
But obviously the AP would not have done anything better.
Only the constant deflection of one sidestick may have prevented the AP to engage.
But obviously the AP would not have done anything better.