Missed Approach Speed Restrictions in small print (JEPPESEN)
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Missed Approach Speed Restrictions in small print (JEPPESEN)
On some Jeppesen plates the missed approach text box contains a separate paragraph with acceleration or speed restrictions during the missed approach, printed in smaller text.
Example: At 2 DME turn right to the VOR
Max 185kts in the turn
Other procedures contain speed restrictions for the missed approach in normal text size and printed in the same line as the actual missed approach track information.
Example: At 2DME turn right (max 185kts) and proceed to the VOR.
As far as I was aware the latter example contains a speed restriction that is valid for every aircraft in all cases. The first example though, as far as I was aware, would only be valid for engine-out cases, due to the lack of acceleration segment in the missed approach in PANS-OPS 4 and above.
My question is; does anyone know where I can find an explanation about that? I was confident that I read it somewhere in the Jeppesen ATC chapter, however I cannot find it anymore.
I would like to know if I have to fly max 185kts during a normal missed approach in my first example, bearing in mind that there is radar environment and no terrain or airspace issues, or would that only be in an engine-out situation?
Example: At 2 DME turn right to the VOR
Max 185kts in the turn
Other procedures contain speed restrictions for the missed approach in normal text size and printed in the same line as the actual missed approach track information.
Example: At 2DME turn right (max 185kts) and proceed to the VOR.
As far as I was aware the latter example contains a speed restriction that is valid for every aircraft in all cases. The first example though, as far as I was aware, would only be valid for engine-out cases, due to the lack of acceleration segment in the missed approach in PANS-OPS 4 and above.
My question is; does anyone know where I can find an explanation about that? I was confident that I read it somewhere in the Jeppesen ATC chapter, however I cannot find it anymore.
I would like to know if I have to fly max 185kts during a normal missed approach in my first example, bearing in mind that there is radar environment and no terrain or airspace issues, or would that only be in an engine-out situation?
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Home soon
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would like to know if I have to fly max 185kts during a normal missed approach in my first example
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes you do,as an overshoot or undershoot of the radial you are supposed to follow will allow the airport authority to nail you for lateral deviation.
Also in the past the missed approach procedure was identical as it is now, except it never had the 185kts restriction before.
It seems to create a lot of confusion.
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: engineer at large
Posts: 1,409
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It doesnt matter what you do on SID, the missed CAN be along the same track, and usually includes some altitude. (turn right at VOR to 2000)
Since there is no criteria for public engine out procedures, you have no guarantees flying the same missed, engine out.
Since there is no criteria for public engine out procedures, you have no guarantees flying the same missed, engine out.
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Funnel Cloud:
Speed restriction like those are a tool in the procedure designer's toolbox to reduce the area he must protect during the turn. The is the same for PANS-OPS and U.S. TERPs.
SIDs do not protect for OEI; they are strictly for normal ops. Every type of airplane has a different engine-out profile.
Speed restriction like those are a tool in the procedure designer's toolbox to reduce the area he must protect during the turn. The is the same for PANS-OPS and U.S. TERPs.
SIDs do not protect for OEI; they are strictly for normal ops. Every type of airplane has a different engine-out profile.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Among camels and dunes
Posts: 425
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LSGG23
Have a look at a Geneva ILS 23 plate and the 185kts in the missed approach if I remember. It doesn't care if you had 6 engines, anything more than 185kts means an increase in radius of turn and this will certainly spoil your day. Mountains are always hard.
Last edited by Jetjock330; 18th Jun 2012 at 15:43.
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Home soon
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mountains are always hard.
I have considered that, however on the SIDs we fly exactly the same tracks without any published speed restrictions. We fly the turns in clean config without overshooting the radials.
What aircraft do you fly?
Last edited by de facto; 20th Jun 2012 at 12:51.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: A tropical island.
Posts: 460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If undershooting a track were a concern then the restriction would not be "max 185" it would be "exactly 185".
Flying the same track at 100 knots or 1000 knots still has you on the same track (though the G force at 1000 knots would be quite impressive), hence you are in the same position relative to terrain at either speed.
Aterpster, can you clarify why a speed restriction for terrain protection is necessary if the aircraft will be on the same track regardless of speed?
Flying the same track at 100 knots or 1000 knots still has you on the same track (though the G force at 1000 knots would be quite impressive), hence you are in the same position relative to terrain at either speed.
Aterpster, can you clarify why a speed restriction for terrain protection is necessary if the aircraft will be on the same track regardless of speed?
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: engineer at large
Posts: 1,409
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
aviator, you must be hi....
First off, there are speed restrictions per altitude and sectors around an airport regardless of the procedure. There is a multitude of reasons for a speed restriction, and now we are even using speed restrictions on departures. (to prevent your nose from implanting on the others butt)
The speed restriction is based on a max bank angle of 18 degrees in a turn. This based on not exceeding 25 degree bank angle, with 5 degrees for course correction in the turn, as for many aircraft, the limit is 25 degrees, and for others the max is 20 degrees, etc or the system will not allow an increase in the bank angle, and will roll out of the turn. (according to the FAA 25-5=18
)
The design includes winds, with the FAA using the max wind as a tailwind all the way through the turn. You will know when the procedures is a multi-variant turn (including A380, 747-8) when the radius is about 6nm!
So as you can see, if there is a turn with a max speed of 185, if you are going 100, you will have a very low bank angle, whereas if you are at 185, with a tailwind, you may be closer to 20 degrees.
First off, there are speed restrictions per altitude and sectors around an airport regardless of the procedure. There is a multitude of reasons for a speed restriction, and now we are even using speed restrictions on departures. (to prevent your nose from implanting on the others butt)
The speed restriction is based on a max bank angle of 18 degrees in a turn. This based on not exceeding 25 degree bank angle, with 5 degrees for course correction in the turn, as for many aircraft, the limit is 25 degrees, and for others the max is 20 degrees, etc or the system will not allow an increase in the bank angle, and will roll out of the turn. (according to the FAA 25-5=18
)The design includes winds, with the FAA using the max wind as a tailwind all the way through the turn. You will know when the procedures is a multi-variant turn (including A380, 747-8) when the radius is about 6nm!
So as you can see, if there is a turn with a max speed of 185, if you are going 100, you will have a very low bank angle, whereas if you are at 185, with a tailwind, you may be closer to 20 degrees.
Last edited by FlightPathOBN; 20th Jun 2012 at 20:58.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: FL400
Posts: 398
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Umm.... so to go back to the OP's question. What is the relevance of the text in small font in the first example?
I've tried finding an explanation in the Jeppesen legend but to no avail. As far as I could determine - it applies in all cases. So why in small print?
I've tried finding an explanation in the Jeppesen legend but to no avail. As far as I could determine - it applies in all cases. So why in small print?
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: engineer at large
Posts: 1,409
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No relevance, whoever set up the plate had to fit it in....I guess.
The Jepp plate and the FAA plate dont look the same, but..
max speed in little letters equals max speed in big letters!
I think the important part would be that public procedures do not have any criteria for engine out, therefore, nothing on a public plate (unless very, very special...like if you are engine out, go to alternate airport) regarding engine out procedures.
Engine out is considered an emergency procedure, and will be dealt with that way.
Some operators will have an engine out design created, so they are not weight limited on takeoff.
as an interesting side note, I have done a few EO procedures for Bob Hope, and the controlling obstacle is the Monument to Aviation!
The Jepp plate and the FAA plate dont look the same, but..
max speed in little letters equals max speed in big letters!
I think the important part would be that public procedures do not have any criteria for engine out, therefore, nothing on a public plate (unless very, very special...like if you are engine out, go to alternate airport) regarding engine out procedures.
Engine out is considered an emergency procedure, and will be dealt with that way.
Some operators will have an engine out design created, so they are not weight limited on takeoff.
as an interesting side note, I have done a few EO procedures for Bob Hope, and the controlling obstacle is the Monument to Aviation!
Last edited by FlightPathOBN; 20th Jun 2012 at 21:06.
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: engineer at large
Posts: 1,409
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I personally, not just because I design procedures, but with involvement in the performance of an aircraft EO, and what the resulting procedure looks like, would recommend, especially in hot climates, an EO design...
When its hot and you are EO, many of you will see this guy pass you on climb...
When its hot and you are EO, many of you will see this guy pass you on climb...
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: engineer at large
Posts: 1,409
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Approach procedures are designed by CAT, BUT there are a few forward thinkers that realize the actual FAS.
(ie the FAS of a 737-800 is not 140KTS for the final segment..)
I understand the parameters you are talking about, but those are to optimize the FAS, and put everyone on the same page. As you note, a fixed point and a fixed speed to aim for.
(ie the FAS of a 737-800 is not 140KTS for the final segment..)
I understand the parameters you are talking about, but those are to optimize the FAS, and put everyone on the same page. As you note, a fixed point and a fixed speed to aim for.
Last edited by FlightPathOBN; 20th Jun 2012 at 23:03.
